Increasing duchy historicality and revisiting their borders

[Veldmaarschalk]

Could you give some more info on Novgorodok.

I also found this map (posted by myself in another thread ) and this shows the region being part of Kievan Rus, so you might be right about the Rus thing for 1066 at least, but since the kingdom of Rus is already big enough, I rather keep it as part of Lithuania.

I also found out that Hrodna is Grodno (all those names, it is quite confusing sometimes)

 

[Calgacus]

Could you give some more info on Novgorodok.

I also found this map (posted by myself in another thread ) and this shows the region being part of Kievan Rus, so you might be right about the Rus thing for 1066 at least, but since the kingdom of Rus is already big enough, I rather keep it as part of Lithuania.

I also found out that Hrodna is Grodno (all those names, it is quite confusing sometimes)

The map's a total fiction. All good CK players know the Kingdom of Rus never existed :rofl: Sorry ... couldn't resist.

Seriously, I know the area there was ethnically Rus'ian, but it's nobody here's fault the provinces were named and drawn the way they were. Here're some links I googled, not top quality, but can prolly get anyone curious started :

http://ellone-loire.net/obsidian/belarus.html#Novgorodok

http://www.navahrudak.newmail.ru/Novogrud/maps.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navahradak


and, LOL, check out this distorted (Bela)Russian nationalist website :rofl:

http://www.belarusguide.com/cities/navahradak.html

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Kingdom of Rus, isn't that a modern invention ?

Isn't that Poetin guy the first King of Rus

Serious, I think Novgorodok is to small (not saying anything about its importance btw) to be a 2 or even 3 countie duchy in that region.
It would take the room that is needed to represent the duchy of Lithuania I think.

But always nice to hear about principalities I never heard before.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I see. Could you list the ones you have that definetly were duchies? Would there be any source available online about it?

Seleucia, Charsianon, Colonea and Anatolia are the only ones based on themes. Cilicia(Armenia Minor) is already there, Cappadocia is representing the old Byzantine(and even to this day) Archbishopric and all others were real duchies. In fact if we look at the map Veld has posted we can see there was actually Duchies of Naissus and "Danube"(Transdanbuia?) instead of Vidin, Tyrnovo and Dobrudja/Karvuna....but these I based mainly on later Bulgarian principalities/kingdoms.

Also yes "kingdom of Rus" didn't existed but where do you see "Kingdom of Rus" in that map if I may ask Calcagus? All I see is 'Kievan Rus' which is right.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I think Scalovia would be more accurate in Prussia than Lithuania and it would look more esthetically pleasing that way too. That is, if it's completely wrong to have it in Samogitia.

Courland, Livonia and Esthonia are fine I think.

After looking at the 1100 Euratlas map, I'd have few things to say about it. Firstly, it appears that nearly every island has it's own duchy, which I find odd. Duchies of Crete and Cyprus are fine, but duchy of Cephallenus (or whatever it is) is not. So, now for a proposal to western part of Byzanz:
- Duchy of Ochrid: Dyrrachion, Ochrid, Strymon
- Duchy of Epirus: Epieros, Arta, Corfu
- Duchy of Achaea: Achaia, Methone, Monemvasia, Korinthos
- Duchy of Crete: Kaneia, Chandax
- Duchy of Athens: Hellas, Atheniai, Demetrias
- Duchy of Thessalonica: Thessalia, Thessalonike, Chalkidike
- Duchy of The Islands: Euboia, Naxos, Samos, Lesbos, Rhodos
- Duchy of Thrace: Adrianapolis, Kaliopolis, Byzantion, Thrace

This leaves Philippopolis hanging, candidates for it to go are Thrace, Thessalonica, Orchid and Tyrnovo.

EDIT: As you can prolly guess, my proposal is a mix of 1100 euratlas map and the realms that sprang into being after 4th crusade.

 

[Calgacus]

Also yes "kingdom of Rus" didn't existed but where do you see "Kingdom of Rus" in that map if I may ask Calcagus? All I see is 'Kievan Rus' which is right.

Kingdom of the Rus=Kievan Rus.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Dyrrachion should definately be it's own duchy. As for Cephalenia the thing is that Corfu is actually the island of Cepahlenia not Corfu...Corfu should be up to the north. Anyway Duchy of Corfu could be easily be made from Corfu and Arta.

As for Aphilipoplis I really think it should be created together with Adrinaopole a duchy of Macedonia.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Dyrrachion should definately be it's own duchy. As for Cephalenia the thing is that Corfu is actually the island of Cepahlenia not Corfu...Corfu should be up to the north. Anyway Duchy of Corfu could be easily be made from Corfu and Arta.

I saw Cepahlenia on those maps, yeah. But in all those maps, Cepahlenia was never larger than that island. So having it historically correct would be having single province duchy there. About Dyrrachion, I wouldn't mind it in, but it means dropping out Orchid, Epirus, Dioclea or Rashka. Since Orchid looks more important than Dyrrachion in 1100-map, I decided not to drop that one. Also I consider Epirus, representing the Despotate of Epirus, more important than Dyrrachion as a duchy there. And I doubt it would be fine dropping Rashka or Dioclea in favour of Dyrrachion and having Dyrrachion expand into Serbia either.

As for Aphilipoplis I really think it should be created together with Adrinaopole a duchy of Macedonia.

In maps I've seen so far, like the 1100 euratlas, there is no duchy of Macedonia anywhere, just the thema of Macedonia. I'm not too content on having Thrace either, but I don't know anything better for there either.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I saw Cepahlenia on those maps, yeah. But in all those maps, Cepahlenia was never larger than that island. So having it historically correct would be having single province duchy there. About Dyrrachion, I wouldn't mind it in, but it means dropping out Orchid, Epirus, Dioclea or Rashka. Since Orchid looks more important than Dyrrachion in 1100-map, I decided not to drop that one. Also I consider Epirus, representing the Despotate of Epirus, more important than Dyrrachion as a duchy there. And I doubt it would be fine dropping Rashka or Dioclea in favour of Dyrrachion and having Dyrrachion expand into Serbia either.

Dyrrachion should expand into province of Epirus....it will be fully historical.
And btw. it's Ochrid not Orchid.

In maps I've seen so far, like the 1100 euratlas, there is no duchy of Macedonia anywhere, just the thema of Macedonia. I'm not too content on having Thrace either, but I don't know anything better for there either.

There is no duchy of Thrace/Thracia either...only theme.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Dyrrachion should expand into province of Epirus....it will be fully historical.

But unless you can show it had significant historical importance in CK era, I'm not going to drop out duchy of Epirus for it. And Epirus without the province of Epirus would be kinda odd, don't you think?

And btw. it's Ochrid not Orchid.

Noted.

There is no duchy of Thrace/Thracia either...only theme.

Like I said, I'm not too content with Thrace either (and therefore would be happy to see alternative suggestions for that area), but there is a vacuum there, that needs to be filled so the thema has to do. But there is no equilevant vacuum to demand Macedonia.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I think Scalovia would be more accurate in Prussia than Lithuania and it would look more esthetically pleasing that way too. That is, if it's completely wrong to have it in Samogitia

Yes it is completely wrong, Samogitia was Memel and Zhmud, I just added Scalovia to it to have a 3 county duchy. Adding it to Prussia would be more correct.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

So East Europe looks like this now:

Duchies north to south and west to east (not including Scandinavian duchies or duchies in previous maps):
- Esthonia, red
- Livonia, white
- Courland, purple
- Samogitia, yellow
- Lithuania, cyan
- Prussia, white
- Pommerania, yellow
- Pomeralia, blue
- Mazovia, red
- Turov-Pinsk, green
- Wielkopolska, cyan
- Kujawy, green
- Galicia-Volhynia, yellow
- Silesia, yellow
- Malopolska, blue
- Moravia, cyan
- Nyitra, red
- Ungvár, cyan
- Kiev, purple
- Esztergom, yellow
- Pest, green
- Moldavia, blue
- Pecs, blue
- Transylvania, white
- Slavonia, cyan
- Temes, purple
- Wallachia, yellow
- Karvuna, red
- Croatia, white
- Bosnia, yellow
- Rashka, blue
- Vidin, green
- Tyrnovo, cyan
- Dalmatia, green
- Dioclea, red
- Ochrid, purple
- Thrace, white
- Thessalonica, yellow
- Epirus, blue
- Athens, cyan
- Aegean Islands, red
- Achaea, green

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Looks good to me

 

[Kujy]

Oooh, me like Byakhiam, nice job. My realm is finally there! But what is Kujawy's CoA going to be?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Like this I think, I believe it is the same as the county of Kujawy

 

[unmerged(21937)]

When we are done with the map, we have to hunt for CoAs for all duchies are changed.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

This is a good site to look at then

http://www.ngw.nl/

 

[unmerged(21937)]

To proceed into Anatolia next. I'm not finding anything else about Opsicia or Thracesia, but the fact that they were Thema. I'm pretty convinced that Euratlas 1100 map has them as duchies by mistake.

I'm not finding anything about duchy of Bithynia either, beyond some obscure references to duke of Bithynia in Roman times. Even less from Paphlagonia.

So essentially, unless someone can prove me wrong with something else than 1100 euratlas map, I'm finding Bithynia and Paphlagonia to be ancient Roman provinces.

Most of Anatolia probably needs to be done inspired by Themes anyway. But I prefer Nicaea around instead of the Thema of that area, since there was an essentially duchy level entity of Nicaea in CK era.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

There was nothing similar as Duchy of Nicea. I urge you to look at other historical maps of the area and you will see Bithynia, Opsicion, etc. Euratlas didn't just come up with these names. The thing is that very little is known about Byzantine duchies.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

So something like this:

- Nicaea: Nikaea, Nikomedeia, Prusa, Kyzikos
- Aegean Islands: Abydos, Euboia, Lesbos, Naxos
- Samos: Samos, Smyrna, Ephesos
- Cibyrrhaeot*: Rhodos, Lykia, Attaleia
- Thracesia**: Laodikea, Sozopolis
- Anatolia: Dorylaion, Ikonion
- Paphlagonia / Bukellarian***: Herakleia, Paphlagonia, Ankyra
- Kappadokia / Charsianon***: Tyana, Galatia, Kaisereia
- Armeniac****: Sinope, Amisos
- Armenia Minor: Seleukeia, Tarsos, Lykandos, Adana, Teluch
- Trebizond: Chaldea, Trapezous, Theodosiopolis
- Koloneia: Koloneia, Melitene
- Mesopotamia: Karin, Mesopotamia, Taron, Amida

* Could be Lykia, Lycia or Rhodos instead.
** Could use another name too, too easily mixed with Thrace. Laodikea?
*** As always, better name suggestions welcome. This duchy takes the land of both Themes.
**** Could use another name as well. Sinope?

This is pretty close to Paradox setup too btw.

Inspired by this map: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/byzthemes.jpg

If I missed an important historical CK era christian entity in the area, please tell me.