Increasing duchy historicality and revisiting their borders

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I think Podlasie is decent as it is. Putting Jacwiec to it would make it pretty cramped for Volhynia (though it could be combined with Galicia ) and Yatvyagi is imo too east to be part of Prussia. Geographically Yatvyagi province would be around between Lomza and Suwalki, I'd say.

Of course it is open for discussion though.

 

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The thing is that Scalovia, Sudovia, Yatvyagi(actually the same as Scalovia) were all part of Prussia, Podlasia was never so much to the west and to the north. Making Podlasia being made of Podlasie and Jacwiez will make it far more historically correct. Same for Prussia....although it may seem a bit big it's just as it should be.

 

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Well, yeah, Wiki's description on Podlasie has it pretty much only in the province of Podlasie. I still can't see Jacwiec in it though. In Euratlas 1300 map it stretches quite a bit eastwards, I know, but it's also pretty south too. I'd say it's rather in provinces of Czersk and Beresty based on that. Of course not whole Czersk, but still that south, since Mazovia is west-northwest of it and it connects to Sandomierz too. Prolly including Podlasie on that map too, but definetly not Jacwiec. At least not any significant portion of it.

EDIT: And I still think Yatvyagi is too east to still be Prussia. It could be Mazovia based on Euratlas 1300, but imo it's east of even 19th-20th century East Prussia.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Maybe another option, which isn't perfect either

Duchy of Samogitia - Memel, Zhmud, Sclavonia
Duchy of Lithuania - Aukshayths, Jaciewz, Sudovia

Yatvyagi and Podlasia go to duchy of Mazovia.

Podlasia never reached as far north as Sclavonia or Sudovia, so it is completely removed. And since we have a kingdom of Lithuania it doesn't mean we can't have a duchy with the same name (just like Croatia and Castilla)

The problem with this region is that the counties don't really fit well within the borders of the duchies. The counties are either to big or to far east

A search for Jaciewz (a name I never heard of before) seems to indicate that it is the region around Suwalki (a place where I have heard of before). Suwalki was (is) a town just east of the Prussian border, this would mean that all the counties west of Jacwiez would be part of Prussia (as indicated by Finnellach) but on the CK map I believe Jacwiez is to far to the east.

 

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Yeah, the provinces are sometimes named awfully. Comparing the CK map's geographical forms (like rivers, coasts etc) to real maps, imo Suwalki is in either northeastern end of Yatvyagi or in southwestern end of Sudovia. Definetly not in Jacwiez. In modern maps, I'd say southern part of Jacwiez is pretty much the province of Hrodna in Byelorussia, while northern part of it would mostly fall in Lithuanian region of Dzükija.

And I agree with dropping Podlasie. Only mentions of dukes of Podlasie I've seen have also been dukes of Mazovia. This plan makes Mazovia six provinces though, so there would be greater cause for breaking duchy of Kujawy from it's westernmost provs.

Also having a duchy of Lithuania would Lithuania being vassal to king of Poland, which afaik is pretty historical for Jagiello period, no?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

No the Lithuanians were rather fiercely independent for most of the era and Jagiello was a lithuanian when he became king of Poland and I believe the crowns were first just in a personal union with each other and afterwards (don't know when exactly) became a commonwealth.

So Lithuania was never a vassal of Poland, alltough Polish sources could suggest otherwise.

Yes the western part of Mazovia could then become duchy of Kujawy.

EDIT
duchy of Lithuania would still be part of the createable kingdom of Lithuania.

 

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Both Galicia and Volhynia are pretty small now though...

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

We could merge them together as Galicia-Volhynia or the other way around,
On the 1200 euratlas-map they are 1 principality.

 

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I'm adopting Finellach's setup for Balkans for now:

- Croatia: Veglia, Senj, Zachlumia
- Slavonia: Varazdin, Zagreb, Krizevci
- Dalmatia: Zadar, Split
- Bosnia: Usora, Rama
- Temes: Bacs, Temes, Belgrade
- Vidin: Vidin, Naissus
- Rashka: Hum, Rashka
- Dioclea: Ragusa, Zeta
- Tyrnovo: Nikopolis, Serdica, Tyrnovo, Dorostrum
- Dobrudja: Mesembria, Karvuna, Constantia, Galaz

For Byzantium, I'm disagreeing with the use of Thema as duchies. Themes were afaik more or less extinct system by 1066 and prevents having later significant entities like Nicaea or Epirus around.

EDIT: And I'm merging Galicia with Volhynia.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I can agree with the Balkan setup and Finnellach is the expert in that area

For Byzantine we could opt for the themata names, like Finnellach or the Byzantine names or the names of the Latin Empire (Athens, Thebe, Achaia).

Have to think about it

 

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If the themata would have been still in active usage during significant part of CK era, they would be fine. But like I may have pointed out earlier in this thread, I very much dislike making duchies based on extinct systems or realms.

So I'd vouch for a mix of Byzantine and Latin names. Prolly rather more like vanilla setup than Finellach's.

To start things going, I think Peloponnesos is too modern name. Morea could be better, but since we also have a historical principality in this area (Achaea), how about that one?

 

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My Byantine setup is not based on Themes but on Duchies. There was definately Duchy of Bithynia, Trebzonid or Paphlagonia....however there never was anything similar to Nikaea or Nikomedeia which were just cities withing Bithynia.

Also the propostion of Lithuanin duchy is not such a bad idea....it's very good idea in fact. I was looking before for a way to introduce the Duchy of Lithuania but I didn't had no idea how to do it...this may be the suggestion which will be acceptable.

I think perhaps this way would be good:
Samogitia: Memel, Zhmud
Prussia: Sembia, Marienburg, Chelmisnkie, Galindia
Podlasia: Yatvyagi, Podlasie
Lithuania: Aukshayts, Scalovia, Sudovia, Jacwiez

 

[Calgacus]

My Byantine setup is not based on Themes but on Duchies. There was definately Duchy of Bithynia, Trebzonid or Paphlagonia....however there never was anything similar to Nikaea or Nikomedeia which were just cities withing Bithynia.

Also the propostion of Lithuanin duchy is not such a bad idea....it's very good idea in fact. I was looking before for a way to introduce the Duchy of Lithuania but I didn't had no idea how to do it...this may be the suggestion which will be acceptable.

I think perhaps this way would be good:
Samogitia: Memel, Zhmud
Prussia: Sembia, Marienburg, Chelmisnkie, Galindia
Podlasia: Yatvyagi, Podlasie
Lithuania: Aukshayts, Scalovia, Sudovia, Jacwiez

Wow ... you're spot on for Samogitia, and I'm glad. I'd suggest Aukštaitija instead of "Lithuania", but I know you don't like native names. Jacwiez is mostly Rus', but the heart of Littovian Rus'. I'd put in a Rus'an duchy as it is by default, but it prolly isn't that important.

EDIT: does Vladimir in Volhynia have to be part of Poland. I kinda resent this super-Poland with Russian territory engineered as intrinsically part of it, when they only got their hands of it permanently by stealing Lithuania's king.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Wow ... you're spot on for Samogitia, and I'm glad. I'd suggest Aukštaitija instead of "Lithuania", but I know you don't like native names. Jacwiez is mostly Rus', but the heart of Littovian Rus'. I'd put in a Rus'an duchy as it is by default, but it prolly isn't that important

EDIT: does Vladimir in Volhynia have to be part of Poland. I kinda resent this super-Poland with Russian territory engineered as intrinsically part of it, when they only got their hands of it permanently by stealing Lithuania's king.

I am glad that Finnellach and you like MY PROPOSAL of the duchy of Lithuania

I have made Samogitia 3 counties, not because of historical accuracy but in this mod we like to have duchies of at least 3 counties and the most ideal is 4 county duchies.

Kingdom setup isn't part of this mod at this point (yet ?)

In a previous post I mentiond that Jacwiez is the region around Suwalki (Suwalki didn't exist in Middle ages yet), but a further search learned that Suwalki is in Sudovia


http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Sudovia.html

Sudovia, or Suvalkija, is the name of a historical region inhabited by Sudovians. It is also known as Sudova.
Today Sudovia is split between southern Lithuania, close to the Polish border, and the northeastern Poland: town of Suwalki and its county. The center of the Lithuanian region Suvalkiya is the town of Marijampole.

The search for Jacwiez only results in this. Why it should be part of Rus is a mistery to me. I can't find anything about it belonging to Rus in the middle ages.

Yotvingians (Jotvingiai, Polish Jacwingowie) is one of the extinct Baltic tribes.
Yotvingian culture and language (called Yotvingian or Sudovian) is closest to Prussian. They lived in the areas of Sudovia and Jacwiez (in Polish language; Suduva, Jotva in Lithuanian) to the left of Neman river, between Hrodna and western turn of Neman. Today this area corresponds to the southwest territory of Lithuania with Marijampole and the northeast Poland with Suwalki and Augustow. Ptolemy, 2nd Century A.D. called the people Soudinoi.

From history, they are known for their invasions into areas of Masovia and Lublin which were fought back. In the 13th century they were partially assimilated by the Lithuanians and partially conquered and dispersed by the Teutonic KnightsThe Teutonic Order ( German: Deutscher Orden Latin: Ordo domus Sanctae Mariae Theutonicorum was a crusading order of knights under Roman Catholic religious vows which was formed at the end of the 12th century in Palestine to give medical aid to pilgrims t. The last Sudovian kunigaikštis Skomantas fought the Teutonic Knights for over 30 years.

 

[Calgacus]

The search for Jacwiez only results in this. Why it should be part of Rus is a mistery to me. I can't find anything about it belonging to Rus in the middle ages.

I've little idea of what Jacwiez was originally, but the borders CK has drawn for it put it is Rus' territory, around Novgorodok. The territory marked on the map is definitely Rus'.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Yes I agree that Jacwiez is placed to far east. But I would choose it to be Lithuanian instead of Rus.

 

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My Byantine setup is not based on Themes but on Duchies. There was definately Duchy of Bithynia, Trebzonid or Paphlagonia....however there never was anything similar to Nikaea or Nikomedeia which were just cities withing Bithynia.

I see. Could you list the ones you have that definetly were duchies? Would there be any source available online about it?

I think perhaps this way would be good:
Samogitia: Memel, Zhmud
Prussia: Sembia, Marienburg, Chelmisnkie, Galindia
Podlasia: Yatvyagi, Podlasie
Lithuania: Aukshayts, Scalovia, Sudovia, Jacwiez

Why Podlasie should be kept?

EDIT: does Vladimir in Volhynia have to be part of Poland. I kinda resent this super-Poland with Russian territory engineered as intrinsically part of it, when they only got their hands of it permanently by stealing Lithuania's king.

Like Veldmaarschalk points out, the point of this thread is to concentrate on duchies. Of course a similiar thread, but concentrating on kingdoms could be started as well, I just think putting them both in the same thread and discussing them both on the same time makes this thread less readable for casual visitor.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finellach
My Byantine setup is not based on Themes but on Duchies. There was definately Duchy of Bithynia, Trebzonid or Paphlagonia....however there never was anything similar to Nikaea or Nikomedeia which were just cities withing Bithynia.

I see. Could you list the ones you have that definetly were duchies? Would there be any source available online about it?

I believe the setup is mostly based on this map

It is very hard to find any conrete information about the duchies (rulers and so on), but then again Byzantium wasn't really a feudal state, so I guess a duke in Byzantine empire was a different position then f.e. a duke in France.

So the setup by Finnellach seems just as good as the vanilla setup, alltough his names are more based on the regions and the vanilla setup is more based on the city names.

 

[Calgacus]

Like Veldmaarschalk points out, the point of this thread is to concentrate on duchies. Of course a similiar thread, but concentrating on kingdoms could be started as well, I just think putting them both in the same thread and discussing them both on the same time makes this thread less readable for casual visitor.

LOL ... Finellach's presence made me think it was the other thread.

 

[Calgacus]

Yes I agree that Jacwiez is placed to far east. But I would choose it to be Lithuanian instead of Rus.

Fair enough. Would be an idea, though, to have a Duchy of Novgorodok. Novgorodok functioned as the Orthodox metropolitan for Lithuania, as well as being the center of Littovian Rus'. It's just an idea, though, not a suggestion. I am most definitely of the school which wants duchy numbers to be cut.