Increasing duchy historicality and revisiting their borders

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I'd still say a no for Sardinia, unless we can figure out other land to give to Pisa. I suppose I should do a map of Italy now.

I'd say single province islands, which weren't very closely attached to any realm and / or had strong independent streak (Gotland, Man, Faeryear, Canaries etc) should be put to None duchy. Putting them arbitrarily to a nearby coastal duchy leads to ankward situations like we now have with Canaries. The other option, to make them single province duchies, is undesirable from gameplay pov, especially if it's a province starting in heathen hands.

Innse Gall is the Isles?

If we make Aswan into Nobatia, wouldn't it also make sense turn Nubia into a duchy using that tag? That would nail down one uncreatable kingdom title as well. It's after all just the northernmost stretch of Nubia.

And cultures to their own thread please.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I'd still say a no for Sardinia, unless we can figure out other land to give to Pisa. I suppose I should do a map of Italy now.

Perhaps we can have a Duchy of Sardinia that includes Corsica and call it the 'Duchy of Sardinia' signifying the title of the 'King of Sardinia and Corsica'.

I'd say single province islands, which weren't very closely attached to any realm and / or had strong independent streak (Gotland, Man, Faeryear, Canaries etc) should be put to None duchy. Putting them arbitrarily to a nearby coastal duchy leads to ankward situations like we now have with Canaries. The other option, to make them single province duchies, is undesirable from gameplay pov, especially if it's a province starting in heathen hands.

I guess none for the Canary Islands would be ideal, none for any kingdom title would also be ideal.

If we make Aswan into Nobatia, wouldn't it also make sense turn Nubia into a duchy using that tag? That would nail down one uncreatable kingdom title as well. It's after all just the northernmost stretch of Nubia.

Ideally Nubia wouldn't even be on the map and if it did, then ALL of Nubia would have been ideal. I don't like the idea of removing the Nubia kingdom title, first off, that wouldn't make any sense, the Kingdom of Makuria was a kingdom and the Nubians worked alongside the crusaders against the Fatamids, they're too important not too include as a kingdom, I say we leave it as is, just rename the duchy title.

And cultures to their own thread please.

Woops, sorry!

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Perhaps we can have a Duchy of Sardinia that includes Corsica and call it the 'Duchy of Sardinia' signifying the title of the 'King of Sardinia and Corsica'.

The thing is, we'd need some land for duchy of Pisa and since Pisa had large influence on Sardinia before the Aragonese came over, I'd like to make Sardinia part of Pisa. If we decide that Pisa should have other land instead, it's all ok to keep Sardinia as it is.

And you made your point about Nubia.

 

[Calgacus]

Innse Gall is the Isles?

Yep, the Islands of the Foreigner, the Western Isles.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

The thing is, we'd need some land for duchy of Pisa and since Pisa had large influence on Sardinia before the Aragonese came over, I'd like to make Sardinia part of Pisa. If we decide that Pisa should have other land instead, it's all ok to keep Sardinia as it is.

But it was never a permanent influence, it swung back and forth between Genoa and Pisa, eventually Pisa did gain the upper hand but that was by 13th century, and the areas they did have influence (I shouldn't have to stress by influence I ONLY mean influence, nothing direct) where in the South of the island. Pisa had to take the northern Giudicati by force. I can hardly see any justification for the North also naturally somehow aligning itself with Pisa

In 1297, Pope Boniface VIII in order to settle diplomatically ghee War of the Vespers, which broke out in 1282 between the Angevins and Aragon's over the possession of Sicily, established mote propriety a hypothetical "regnum Sarduniae et Corsicae". The Pope enfeoffed it to the Catalan Jaume II the Just, king of the Crown of Aragon (a confederation made up of the kingdoms of Aragon and Valencia, plus the peasants of Catalonia), promising him support should he wish to conquer Pisan Sardinia in exchange for Sicily.

A title doesn't get much higher then the Pope now does it? And the idea of Sardinia and Corsica being one seems to have been a pretty common idea at the time.

And you made your point about Nubia.

Thanks for lending your ear to my suggestion!

 

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Albany: Buchan, Mar, Angus, Atholl, Fife
Moray: Caithness, Sutherland, Moray
Galloway: Carrick, Galloway
Western Isles: Western Isles, Ross, Argyll, Strathclyde
Lothian: Lothian, Berwick
Orkneys: Shetland, Orkney

So, Scotland like this?

EDIT: What about Cumberland?

EDIT2: About Italy again:

1) Marche, I'm finding very little information about this. I read the lands of Marche were mostly associated with Spoleto when it existed, so a merger would be a solution. Anybody know better about Marche?

2) Romagna, I'm not finding too much about this either. It's western parts were already planned to become parts of Modena, so maybe the eastern lands could be Ferrara then?

 

[Calgacus]

Albany: Buchan, Mar, Angus, Atholl, Fife
Moray: Caithness, Sutherland, Moray
Galloway: Carrick, Galloway
Western Isles: Western Isles, Ross, Argyll, Strathclyde
Lothian: Lothian, Berwick
Orkneys: Shetland, Orkney

So, Scotland like this?

EDIT: What about Cumberland?

I'm mostly fine with that. It's a good proposal. I'd be a little uncomfortable about Strathclyde in the Western Isles. Ideally, you'd split Strathclyde between Galloway and the Western Isles/Argyll. But that, of course, ain't possible.

Regarding Cumberland. I think it would depend on what was done with England. I'm getting the feeling that there is total consensus for dumping the Duchy of Cumberland for Northumberland/Northumbria. Finellach has Cumberland in Galloway, and transferred Westmorland to Lancaster. Otherwise, there is the possibilty of a Duchy of Cumbria encompassing Cumberland and Westmorland, but like you, I have reservations here.

I was thinking Man might be assigned to Galloway, which is appropriate in both a Norse and Gaelic context, more appropraite than having Cumberland in Galloway, and at least as historically appropriate as having Man in the Western Isles. But I don't know what your plans are for Man. I'd prefer that Galloway wasn't a 4 province duchy, but I guess the good thing about that is that it'd be hard to recreate for the 1337 scenario.

This is the way I see it at present, presuming there'll be no Argyll duchy:

Albany: Buchan, Mar, Angus, Atholl, Fife
Moray: Caithness, Sutherland, Moray
Galloway: Carrick, Galloway, Man (?), Cumberland (?), Strathclyde (?)
Cumbria (?): Cumberland (?), Westmorland (?)
Western Isles: Western Isles, Ross, Argyll, Strathclyde (?)
Lothian: Lothian, Berwick
Orkneys: Shetland, Orkney

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I'm mostly fine with that. It's a good proposal. I'd be a little uncomfortable about Strathclyde in the Western Isles. Ideally, you'd split Strathclyde between Galloway and the Western Isles/Argyll. But that, of course, ain't possible.

If Cumberland does not go to Galloway, then Strathclyde would be better in Galloway, but if it does, then it's mostly "which ever looks better" choice, since Western Isles and Galloway both would be three provinces already before adding Strathclyde.

Regarding Cumberland. I think it would depend on what was done with England. I'm getting the feeling that there is total consensus for dumping the Duchy of Cumberland for Northumberland/Northumbria. Finellach has Cumberland in Galloway, and transferred Westmorland to Lancaster. Otherwise, there is the possibilty of a Duchy of Cumbria encompassing Cumberland and Westmorland, but like you, I have reservations here.

Northumberland is much better than Cumberland, considering it's both the name of the old Saxon earldom and duchy of Northumberland was created earlier than Cumberland (though both still beyond CK era). Cumberland could be part of Northumberland too, but I feel that would be historically awkward too. Since Lancaster (the city) is in the province of Westmorland based on how the provinces are drawn, it's fairly obvious choice to put in duchy of Lancaster.

I was thinking Man might be assigned to Galloway, which is appropriate in both a Norse and Gaelic context, more appropraite than having Cumberland in Galloway, and at least as historically appropriate as having Man in the Western Isles. But I don't know what your plans are for Man. I'd prefer that Galloway wasn't a 4 province duchy, but I guess the good thing about that is that it'd be hard to recreate for the 1337 scenario.

I've put Man to be part of no duchy for now.

 

[Calgacus]

If Cumberland does not go to Galloway, then Strathclyde would be better in Galloway, but if it does, then it's mostly "which ever looks better" choice, since Western Isles and Galloway both would be three provinces already before adding Strathclyde.

OK.

I've put Man to be part of no duchy for now.

That's fine, just remember that Galloway is a good candidate.

Western Isles

Really, oughtn't that name be ditched? OK, you don't even need to use a Gaelic name, just one that is vaguely less non-contemporary and artificial. Isles and Isles of the Foreigners are the two English translations of the lordship. Hebrides is 1600s I think.

 

[Calgacus]

Actually, Innse Gall would proly be best. After all, "Strathclyde," "Galloway" and "Argyll" (to name just three) are merely modern anglicizations/corruptions of the Middle Scottish Gaelic combinations with the literal meanings of "Valley of the Clyde," "Land of the Foreign Scots" and "Shore of the Scots" respectively.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I'd prefer Isles over Innse Gall, since that duchy will be used by Norse in 1066 scenario at least. Duchy of Innse Gall sounds pretty odd for Norse.

Would Cumberland be bad in Northumberland?

 

[Calgacus]

I'd prefer Isles over Innse Gall, since that duchy will be used by Norse in 1066 scenario at least. Duchy of Innse Gall sounds pretty odd for Norse.

Not for Norse who spoke Gaelic, as these guys did. But Isles is definitely better than "Western Isles."

Would Cumberland be bad in Northumberland?

I think so, prolly for the same reasons of historical and cultural awkwardness as you.

 

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So Scotland would now look like this:

Duchies, from north to south:
- Orkney, cyan, does not include Faeryar anymore
- Isles, red
- Moray, purple
- Albany, green
- Lothian, blue
- Galloway, cyan

And Italy could look like this:

Duchies, from north to south and west to east:
- Savoy, cyan
- Lombardia, blue
- Verona, purple
- Kärnten, red
- Veneto, yellow, includes Istria, if you are in doubt
- Genoa, green
- Modena, white
- Ferrara, red
- Pisa, yellow
- Tuscany, cyan
- Sardinia, purple
- Spoleto, blue
- Benevento, purple
- Apulia, yellow
- Calabria, white

Sicily is as before, so it's not included on the map. I'm contemplating on removing Malta from it however.

 

[Deserteur]

What about the Croatian part of Istria? I suppose it won't be a single province duchy called Istria. So where will it go?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Map of Italy looks fine to me.

Malta will have a 'none' duchy tag then ?

Croatian Istria (Veglia) could go to duchy of Croatia. Finnellach had done that to, and since he knows a lot about the Croatian territories, it should be OK.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I do not like the merging of old Campania (a title I never liked) and Benevento, what historical grounds do you have for it?The only time I've ever read of any important interaction between the two is when Sicardo, duke of Benevento plundered Amalfi in 836, this move wasn't good for his health because he was killed by angry mob of Amalfian rebels. The regions where worlds apart, Amalfi and Salerno both heavily relied on the sea for trade and food. Amalfi especially since it was a pseudo-merchant republic (the leader held the title 'duchi-dogi', a rather confusing title). Salerno was inhabited by the descendents of Lombards and where still reffered to as so in the 10th and 11th century.

Both of the areas held '2nd tier' titles, Amalfi had a 'duchi-dogi' and Salerno was a powerful Principality. Personally I would just rename Campania to Salerno as Salerno had defeated the ridiculously wealthy Amalfians 27 years ago, eventually the gave the city back but there always remained a Lombard influence although nothing direct. Amalfi remained rich and strong while Salerno gained a lot of prestige and influence in the region. I thin Salerno would be best since 'Amalfi' is very specific a title, reffering just to Amalfi (BTW if you didn't know, Amalfi is in the Napoli province) the powerful City State.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Oh, I didn't merge them out of historical justification, but rather did it since it looked better gameplaywise and nobody wasn't really opposing it before. I'll put Salerno / Amalfi to fill usual Campania's spot for next version.

There was no duchy of Istria in CK era, so Veglia goes to an appropriate Croatian duchy.

I think Malta is best in None, but it could also be fairly easily justifiable as part of Sicily.

 

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I'm planning to implement this setup for Poland, based on Veldmaarschalk's and Duke of Kujawy's agreements few pages back:

- Pommern: Werle, Wolgast, Rügen
- Pomeralia: Stettin, Slupsk, Danzig
- Wielkopolska: Lubusz, Poznanskie, Opole, Kaliskie, Gnieznienskie
- Silesia: Lower Silesia, Upper Silesia
- Malopolska: Krakowskie, Cieszyn, Sacz, Sandomierskie
- Mazovia: Plock, Czersk, Kujawy, Sieradzko-Leczyckie
- Prussia: Marienburg, Chelminskie, Galindia, Sambia

And reserving a possibility of adding duchy of Kujawy with Kujawy and Sieradzko-Leczyckie, if we have extra tags at the end.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

It it rather hard to find the exact posts again.

It's nice to have Pomeralia in

But Stettin was never in Pomeralia (later in the CK period Pomeralia was called Pomerania of Gdansk and later still Royal Prussia, after CK period called West-Prussia), it was always part of a duchy/province named Pomerania. Pomeralia is further east. (Slupsk and Danzig).

And since Gniezinskie (sorry don't know the right spelling here) wasn't part of Pomeralia but Wielkopolska, as pointed out by Duke of Kujawy, and also confirmed by maps I have seen.

We would have a Pommern of 4 counties, Werle, Wolgast, Stettin and Rügen and Pomeralia of 2 counties, Slupsk and Danzig.

Is that why you have added Stettin to Pomeralia ?


The island of Rügen was in fact a duchy/principality of its own during a long time in the CK era. But giving it a duchy tier is a bit to much.

 

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Oh, right. I didn't get so clear picture where the border should go. Putting Stettin to Pommern then. It leaves Pomeralia somewhat tiny though. Witek wanted to make Marienburg & Chelminskie both part of Pomeralia iirc. While Marienburg is quite obviously important for Prussia, would Chelminskie be fine in Pomeralia for historicality? It would even out Prussia and Pomeralia at three provs both.

I read Rügen was annexed by dukes of Pommern in 14th century, so it's certainly better part of that than part of Skåne.