True that. Maybe I remembered wrong.
edit: yeah I did - it was Calabria I was thinking of.
edit: yeah I did - it was Calabria I was thinking of.
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about the low countries - I oppose to introducing the duchy of Valois - my sources tell me that Vermandois is bigger. Vermandois or Reims - not Valois,
I would also like to keep Hainault - but if you really really want to leave it out - just link it up to the duke of Flanders - because there was a union at one time - it had nothing to do with Brabant,
http://www.wazamar.org/Nederlanden/lage-landen-4.htm
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/1090map.htm
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/900eur.jpg
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/1032francea.jpg
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/france-growth.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/france_1035.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/france_1154_1184.jpg
I would also like to keep Hainault - but if you really really want to leave it out - just link it up to the duke of Flanders - because there was a union at one time - it had nothing to do with Brabant,
http://www.wazamar.org/Nederlanden/lage-landen-4.htm
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/1090map.htm
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/900eur.jpg
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/1032francea.jpg
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/france-growth.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/france_1035.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/france_1154_1184.jpg
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Here's something I mentioned in another thread about duchies (which in hindsight, I should have posted here) 
If you go to this site and then go one page back, you get this map below. So a map of the northern low countries from between 850 to 1350, a large timeframe of course but this show the Bishop (bisdom in dutch) of Utrecht (Sticht in CK) as a rather large bishopric.
but you don't mention him in 1 of your posts. I also find out this day that IJsselgau or IJsselgo, the county given to the bishop of Utrecht in 1086 is another name for the county of Zutphen, which is where I live and I didn't even know that.
Hello, I'm back.
About Scotland, I like the ideas you're having there. The biggest things bothering me with your original plans were the possibility of having realms no longer existing in CK era turning up as duchies... Anyway, Moray is fine and I read one of the Scottish kings was "prince of Cumbria" or something. But for some creative input, why not put all the "Norwegian territory" into a single duchy and then call it Orkney, Isles or Hebrides, depending on what sounds best. Would be kinda silly to have two duchies on the Islands and three duchies on the mainland, nee?
Faeroes & Shetland could be part of Iceland or None. Perhaps preferably None, since they are quite separated islands, that afaik weren't strongly part of any realm, at least not dukely realm.
Will put Lausitz back to Upper Saxony then.
Spruce, we discussed Valois, Vermandois and Hainaut quite a lot already. We have a clear need for a duchy in that area to replace Picardie. I haven't heard of a duchy of Vermandois, so unless you provide me with info on such, Vermandois is not an option really. Then Hainaut, it wasn't a duchy either and it would be just awful to put the territory of Picardie to that. Or share it between Flanders and Normandie for that matter. Duchy of Valois existed in CK era, so it's the best option to fill that vacuum there. It also has historical significance as well.
Semi-Lobster, we are trying to get rid of single-province duchies, unless they are of critical importance and can't be solved otherwise (Luxemburg). So I'd give Canaries a red light unfortunately. Complaint about Aswan noted, though isn't Nobatia pretty much like Nubia?
Could we call the already existing republic of Pisa as Siena? Or vice versa? Since we are having the problem of a republic that should be duchy level realm, we could make it a creatable duchy title with that same name, to catch two birds with one stone to say.
I'd prefer keeping Rome without a duchy really. It was pretty much "Pope's personal fiefdom" back then after all.
Since Campania is a made up title, could it's land be merged with Benevento instead? Benevento and Campania are both just two provinces, so it wouldn't be bad to merge them, if possible.
Isn't Lothier like Lorraine, but in some old local German dialect?
About Scotland, I like the ideas you're having there. The biggest things bothering me with your original plans were the possibility of having realms no longer existing in CK era turning up as duchies... Anyway, Moray is fine and I read one of the Scottish kings was "prince of Cumbria" or something. But for some creative input, why not put all the "Norwegian territory" into a single duchy and then call it Orkney, Isles or Hebrides, depending on what sounds best. Would be kinda silly to have two duchies on the Islands and three duchies on the mainland, nee?
Faeroes & Shetland could be part of Iceland or None. Perhaps preferably None, since they are quite separated islands, that afaik weren't strongly part of any realm, at least not dukely realm.
Will put Lausitz back to Upper Saxony then.
Spruce, we discussed Valois, Vermandois and Hainaut quite a lot already. We have a clear need for a duchy in that area to replace Picardie. I haven't heard of a duchy of Vermandois, so unless you provide me with info on such, Vermandois is not an option really. Then Hainaut, it wasn't a duchy either and it would be just awful to put the territory of Picardie to that. Or share it between Flanders and Normandie for that matter. Duchy of Valois existed in CK era, so it's the best option to fill that vacuum there. It also has historical significance as well.
Semi-Lobster, we are trying to get rid of single-province duchies, unless they are of critical importance and can't be solved otherwise (Luxemburg). So I'd give Canaries a red light unfortunately. Complaint about Aswan noted, though isn't Nobatia pretty much like Nubia?
Could we call the already existing republic of Pisa as Siena? Or vice versa? Since we are having the problem of a republic that should be duchy level realm, we could make it a creatable duchy title with that same name, to catch two birds with one stone to say.
I'd prefer keeping Rome without a duchy really. It was pretty much "Pope's personal fiefdom" back then after all.
Since Campania is a made up title, could it's land be merged with Benevento instead? Benevento and Campania are both just two provinces, so it wouldn't be bad to merge them, if possible.
Isn't Lothier like Lorraine, but in some old local German dialect?
Sounds like Dutch to me. If something is not German, English or French, it is most likely DutchByakhiam said:
Well Lothier isn't dutch, at least not modern dutch.
It is the first time I ever hear the word so maybe it is a dutch/low german/low franconian word from that time.
Italy
Rome not part of a duchy I can live with
Benevento merging with Campania, alltough Benevento had nothing to do with that region, I have no real objection against it and 3 duchies (excluding Sicily), each of 4 counties, for southern Italy is good enough I guess.
I would like to make of the duchies of Toscane and Romagna, 3 duchies 2 duchies. So either Modena (Emilia), or Siena or Pisa.
I forgot about Pisa, isn't that a noncreatable title ? If so we could make it a createable duchy title, county of Pisa plus the 2 counties of Sardinia since I believe Pisa controlled a large part (though not the entire) island at some point during that timeframe.
Canary Islands
I wouldn't make that a duchy title. Since I believe it is at the start of the 1066 scenario a independent muslim state. So it would be an easy and most likely the first target of every human player, since almost every count in europe will have more troops than then ruler of the Canary Islands. So it would create a big exploit.
It is the first time I ever hear the word so maybe it is a dutch/low german/low franconian word from that time.
Italy
Rome not part of a duchy I can live with
Benevento merging with Campania, alltough Benevento had nothing to do with that region, I have no real objection against it and 3 duchies (excluding Sicily), each of 4 counties, for southern Italy is good enough I guess.
I would like to make of the duchies of Toscane and Romagna, 3 duchies 2 duchies. So either Modena (Emilia), or Siena or Pisa.
I forgot about Pisa, isn't that a noncreatable title ? If so we could make it a createable duchy title, county of Pisa plus the 2 counties of Sardinia since I believe Pisa controlled a large part (though not the entire) island at some point during that timeframe.
Canary Islands
I wouldn't make that a duchy title. Since I believe it is at the start of the 1066 scenario a independent muslim state. So it would be an easy and most likely the first target of every human player, since almost every count in europe will have more troops than then ruler of the Canary Islands. So it would create a big exploit.
Duchy of Sardinia is a fantasy title as well? If so, then giving it also the starting province of Pisa and renaming it Pisa would be quite neat solution.
About the rest of Tuscany and about Romagna too, I'd say Modena. Pisa is handled above and Siena was afaik a republic. If we get the choice between the title of a republic and the title of a secular feudal duchy, I'd prefer the duchy.
Alternative propositions to deal with Campania are of course fine, but naming the duchy for a merchant republic that used to powerful before CK era is stretching it a bit imo. Especially since if we have them both, we'll have two 2-prov duchies there.
Spoleto was an extinct title in 1066, already by a hundred years and never to be recreated. How about turning that Urbino instead? After all, we have counts of Urbino becoming dukes of Urbino in 1443, within our timeframe even.
About the rest of Tuscany and about Romagna too, I'd say Modena. Pisa is handled above and Siena was afaik a republic. If we get the choice between the title of a republic and the title of a secular feudal duchy, I'd prefer the duchy.
Alternative propositions to deal with Campania are of course fine, but naming the duchy for a merchant republic that used to powerful before CK era is stretching it a bit imo.
Especially since if we have them both, we'll have two 2-prov duchies there.Spoleto was an extinct title in 1066, already by a hundred years and never to be recreated. How about turning that Urbino instead? After all, we have counts of Urbino becoming dukes of Urbino in 1443, within our timeframe even.
Byakhiam said:
Hi again. I'm not sure what you mean. Orkney and Shetland have to go together. For the 10th centuries and 11th centuries, your idea would be good. For the CK period, the Isles and Galloway had their own separate Gaelic lords who lasted a long time and were the in the top 4 rulers of importance in CK-period "Scotland." Orkney, separated from the "Southern" Isles except by common Norwegian homage, controlled Caithness, but had to do homage to the King of Scots for its possession, which was perdiodically attacked by Scotland/Moray. (In theory, Scotland was a colateral kingship, and the lord of [the Men of] Moray would become King of [the Men of] Alba every second reign).
But like I said, I'm not totally sure I understand correctly.
Well I am at work righ now so I can't check
But there was a illegal son of Frederick II Hohenstaufen who held the title duker (or maybe even king) of Sardinia. And there was a kingdom on Sardinia in CK era, it had the names of 1 of the counties (Arobeara ?) but that didn't cover the entire island.
You are right about Siena, it was a republic, so lets choose for Modena.
Never heard about the duke of Urbino, but I presume you have looked it up.
Campania/Benevento merge is ok for me. 4 counties is the ideal duchy size I think.
so I can't checkBut there was a illegal son of Frederick II Hohenstaufen who held the title duker (or maybe even king) of Sardinia. And there was a kingdom on Sardinia in CK era, it had the names of 1 of the counties (Arobeara ?) but that didn't cover the entire island.
You are right about Siena, it was a republic, so lets choose for Modena.
Never heard about the duke of Urbino, but I presume you have looked it up.
Campania/Benevento merge is ok for me. 4 counties is the ideal duchy size I think.
Byakhiam said:
Spoleto was a duchy through a large part of the timeframe. Google for Urslingen, Vohburg and Spoleto and I'm sure you'll find a lot of sources.
Ah, I assumed the Western Isles territory was also mostly Norse territory during CK era. Or held by unimportant minor lords. That explains it, thanks. Anyway, should Man really be part of the duchy of Isles? Did they go hand-in-hand with anyone other than the Norse?
Why Argyll should be there? Wikipedia says Lord of Argyll only entered Scottish peerage in 1445 and became a mere Earl in 1457. Is it there representing some earlier entity, is Wikipedia blatantly false here or should Argyll really be changed?
Moray instead of Moireabh, former is better known and that is the criteria of choosing the language of name for duchies elsewhere too.
Why Argyll should be there? Wikipedia says Lord of Argyll only entered Scottish peerage in 1445 and became a mere Earl in 1457. Is it there representing some earlier entity, is Wikipedia blatantly false here or should Argyll really be changed?
Moray instead of Moireabh, former is better known and that is the criteria of choosing the language of name for duchies elsewhere too.
Styrbiorn said:
Catholic Encyclopedia has more detailed information than the source I checked first, so it seems I was wrong. Spoleto is good.
Veldmaarschalk said:
Can you find something about this? And if it was just one person holding that title and a bastard son even, I think giving it to Pisa is better, since we really need some substance for Pisa and afaik Sardinia went with Pisa for the better part of CK era.
Byakhiam said:
Not really, there was off-and-on overlordship during the 12th century, but for most of the CK period they were politically unrelated. Putting Man in the Innse Gall Duchy's area of declarability is a matter for the discretion of any modder or developer.
Byakhiam said:
The ruler of Argyll enjoyed a lot of independence and power. Having an Argyll duchy is another subjective point. It could justifiably be part of the Innse Gall.
Byakhiam said:
I prolly agree. My general preference is to have Duchies and Kingdoms in English, (which is why I'd prolly prefer Albany to Alba[n]) and counties in native. But those, sadly, can't be fully edited. I very much hope they'll give provinces of Celtic Scotland their Gaelic names in CK II and not their modern English ones (English has never been spoken in the "Western Isles"!).
His name was Enzo Hohenstauffen, according to Steven Runciman in his book the Sicilian Vespers a son of Frederick II Hohenstauffen and a woman from Cremona. He held the title king of Sardinia, I rather meaningless title it seems, he spent most of his life (from around 1250 till 1272) in a prison in Bologna, after being captured during a battle there
http://www.hostkingdom.net/soitaly.html#Sardinia
Also about Urbino/Spoleto
I have a map from 1500 it shows a duchy of Urbino but it also shows a duchy of Spoleto at the same time. The duchy of Urbino lying north of that of Spoleto. Urbino on the map is considered fully independent and Spoleto a dependance of the Papal States.
Also on a map of 1300 there is a duchy of Spoleto, but not one of Urbino.
In 1400 there are none of the duchies.
Interesting to see that according to this Godfrey of Lower Lorraine held the title duke of Spoleto in 1066.
http://www.hostkingdom.net/soitaly.html#Sardinia
Also about Urbino/Spoleto
I have a map from 1500 it shows a duchy of Urbino but it also shows a duchy of Spoleto at the same time. The duchy of Urbino lying north of that of Spoleto. Urbino on the map is considered fully independent and Spoleto a dependance of the Papal States.
Also on a map of 1300 there is a duchy of Spoleto, but not one of Urbino.
In 1400 there are none of the duchies.
Interesting to see that according to this Godfrey of Lower Lorraine held the title duke of Spoleto in 1066.
Veldmaarschalk said:
This was apparently one Enzio, d.1272. See http://genealogy.euweb.cz/hohst/hohenstauf.html
Byakhiam said:
I know we all hate single county duchies but there was never any link between Morocco and the Canaries. Ideally the islands would be split into two like the Balearic Islands but here nothing we can do about that now, can we!
regardless thuogh, if your worried about some upstart count sailing to the Canary Islands and maknig himself Duke, then that's pretty much what actually happened, Jean de Béthencourt went from Norman pirate to 'King'! It can't be an exploit if it actually happened! (BTW the Canaries where inhabited by the Guanche, a Berber related people who where Pagans, not Muslim )As for Nobatia, it's not the same as Nubia since a unified 'Nubia' had not existed in for hundreds of years. There where 3 successor states to the old Nubia, Nobatia (capital in Faras) in the North, Makuria (capital in Dongola) in the centre and Alwah (capital in Soba) in the South. The bit of 'Nubia' that stickd out in Crusader Kings is actually the northern finge portions the unified state that arose 710, a unified Nobatia and Makuria, it is diffcult to understand the circumstances of the union but the capital and power remained in Makuria (and Dongola) while the religion of Nobatia was chosen (Makuria was Melkite Christian while Nobtia was Monophysite Christian). So the name 'Nobatia' while a bit incorrect, is still better then Aswan. I could go on and on and on about Nubia but... I won't
Sardinia is a tough siutation to properly represent, the Byzantines had just left by 1066 and the island was split into four 'giudicati' (govenors), Gallura, Logudoro, Arborea, and Caralis, and where independant of but under the influence of Pisa and Genoa, it was never unified until the Aragonese came in 1323 and eventually defeated the last giudicati, Eleanor of Arborea in 1409. Generally the island had a long and interesting history, for further reading, this site is very good
http://www.sardegna.net/docs/cultura/storia_en.htmlThe only time in this period ,the island was unified was by the Aragonese and became 'The kingdom of Sardinia and Corsica' (ironically the Island of Corsica was never conquered and this led to in 1479 creating a new title of just the 'Kingdom of Sardinia') It's hard to tell if the title was a REAL title or Aragon was taking ideas from Castille and making ridiculous titles for everything.
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Semi-Lobster said:I know we all hate single county duchies but there was never any link between Morocco and the Canaries. Ideally the islands would be split into two like the Balearic Islands but here nothing we can do about that now, can we!
Good post.
I'd support a Kingdom of the Canaries, never mind a Duchy. The Canary-Berber thing is mostly speculation BTW, in reference to a small amount of data on one of Island-chains' many languages. The connection if it existed, was about as equivalent as Germans and Hittites.
Well historical it might be correct (and is) but for the gameplay, I wouldn't want a duke of the Canary Islands. To much of an exploit.
Historical duchy yes, a ingame duchy no.
EDIT
Damn, your post was ironical and I responded seriously.
Historical duchy yes, a ingame duchy no.
EDIT
Damn, your post was ironical
and I responded seriously.
Calgacus said:Good post.
I'd support a Kingdom of the Canaries, never mind a Duchy. The Canary-Berber thing is mostly speculation BTW, in reference to a small amount of data on one of Island-chains' many languages. The connection if it existed, was about as equivalent as Germans and Hittites.
Well the Berber connection and a multitude of other suggested connections to the guanche have been proposed many of them are rather bizzare, many think though that the guanche where distantly related to Berber because to a few trace linguistic connections.