Increase food management challenge and Implement Squalor, Fire and Diseases

[IsaacCAT]

OK, these are the assumptions from your suggestions to analyze an ongoing game:

Food production is based on POPs following these ratios:

• Noble: -0.50/month
• Citizen: -0.30/month
• Freeman: -0.20/month +0.30/month
• Tribesman: -0.20/month +0.28/month
• Slave: -0.10/month +0.15/month

Each territory can produce as much food as the type of territory plus 1 if it has a farm and plus 3 or 5 if the good produced is food (5 for grain).

To trade food you need to have a surplus, all food that is not stored is traded away (in batches of +3 or +5 if grain). This will make food trading variable on time. I am ok with this, as seasons and variations on harvest should be introduced in the future.

Let's test it with Ay, a single province tall run that I did some time ago:

The province of Keralaputa has food storage of 4387 units. On the current version of the game the overall balance of food is +7,10.

Applying the suggestion I come up with the following results:

Territory

Dwelling

Terrain

Good

Food Building

Max food

Full Employment Freeman Food Prod

Full Employment Tribesman Food Prod

Full Employment Slave Food Prod

Nobles Food Cons

Citizen Food Cons

Freeman Food Cons

Tribesman Food Cons

Slave Food Cons

Total Food produced

Imported Food

Food Surplus

Freeman unemployment

Tribes Unemployment

Vanci

City

Hills

Base Metals

-

2​

3,9​

0​

0,9​

-2,5​

-2,7​

-2,6​

0​

-0,6​

-6,4​

0​

-6,4​

0​

0​

Muziris

City

Jungle

Spices

-

2,5​

6,9​

0​

1,8​

-4​

-4,8​

-4,6​

0​

-1,2​

-12,1​

0​

-12,1​

0​

0​

Aloe

Settlement

Jungle

Leather

-

2,5​

0,3​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,1​

0,15​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

Pseudostomos

Settlement

Jungle

Fish

Farm

6,5​

0,9​

0​

1,8​

0​

0​

-0,6​

0​

-1,2​

0,9​

0​

0,9​

0​

0​

Nelcynda

Settlement

Jungle

Wood

-

2,5​

0,3​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,1​

0,15​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

Tropiana

Settlement

Hills

Spices

-

2​

0,3​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,1​

0,15​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

Bacare

Settlement

Jungle

Spices

-

2,5​

2,7​

0​

0,9​

0​

0​

-1,8​

0​

-0,6​

0,1​

0​

0,1​

0​

0​

Kottiara

Settlement

Jungle

Incense

-

2,5​

3​

0​

0,75​

0​

0​

-2​

0​

-0,5​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

Elankon

City

Jungle

Gemstones

-

2,5​

3,3​

0​

0,45​

-2​

-1,8​

-2,2​

0​

-0,3​

-3,8​

0​

-3,8​

0​

0​

Aykudi

City

Hills

Dyes

-

2​

18,3​

0​

8,4​

-18,5​

-9​

-12,2​

0​

-5,6​

-43,3​

16​

-27,3​

0​

0​

Balita

City

Plains

Dyes

-

3​

3,6​

0,56​

0,45​

-2,5​

-2,7​

-2,4​

0,4​

-0,3​

-4,5​

0​

-4,5​

0​

0​

Komari

Settlement

Plains

Fish

Farm

7​

1,2​

0​

2,25​

0​

0​

-0,8​

0​

-1,5​

1,15​

0​

1,15​

0​

0​

Total Province

37,5​

44,7​

0,56​

18,15​

-29,5​

-21​

-29,8​

0,4​

-12,1​

-67,5​

16​

-51,5​

There is no unemployment as the population on food producing territories does not produce over the max food of the territory.

There is a massive shortfall of food. No food can be exported on this province and famine will soon start "killing" many pops. We already use 4 trade routes to import food, but we should use 8 more trade routes to import grain and 4 more trade routes to import other food to achieve equilibrium (Total trade routes to import food 12/22). That means that one province tall nation is not viable unless there is a huge continuous surplus of food to be imported.

If we increase x20 the max food produced by each territory, it would be possible to achieve a loss of only -12,59 food units:

Territory

Dwelling

Terrain

Good

Food Building

Max food

Full Employment Freeman Food Prod

Full Employment Tribesman Food Prod

Full Employment Slave Food Prod

Nobles Food Cons

Citizen Food Cons

Freeman Food Cons

Tribesman Food Cons

Slave Food Cons

Total Food produced

Imported Food

Food Surplus

Freeman unemployment

Tribes Unemployment

Vanci

City

Hills

Base Metals

-

40​

3,9​

0​

0,9​

-2,5​

-2,7​

-2,6​

0​

-0,6​

-3,6​

0​

-3,6​

0​

0​

Muziris

City

Jungle

Spices

-

50​

6,9​

0​

1,8​

-4​

-4,8​

-4,6​

0​

-1,2​

-5,9​

0​

-5,9​

0​

0​

Aloe

Settlement

Jungle

Leather

-

50​

0,3​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,1​

0,15​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

Pseudostomos

Settlement

Jungle

Fish

Farm

130​

0,9​

0​

1,8​

0​

0​

-0,6​

0​

-1,2​

0,9​

0​

0,9​

0​

0​

Nelcynda

Settlement

Jungle

Wood

-

50​

0,3​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,1​

0,15​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

Tropiana

Settlement

Hills

Spices

-

40​

0,3​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,1​

0,15​

0​

0,15​

0​

0​

Bacare

Settlement

Jungle

Spices

-

50​

2,7​

0​

0,9​

0​

0​

-1,8​

0​

-0,6​

1,2​

0​

1,2​

0​

0​

Kottiara

Settlement

Jungle

Incense

-

50​

3​

0​

0,75​

0​

0​

-2​

0​

-0,5​

1,25​

0​

1,25​

0​

0​

Elankon

City

Jungle

Gemstones

-

50​

3,3​

0​

0,45​

-2​

-1,8​

-2,2​

0​

-0,3​

-2,55​

0​

-2,55​

0​

0​

Aykudi

City

Hills

Dyes

-

40​

18,3​

0​

8,4​

-18,5​

-9​

-12,2​

0​

-5,6​

-18,6​

16​

-2,6​

0​

0​

Balita

City

Plains

Dyes

-

60​

3,6​

0,56​

0,45​

-2,5​

-2,7​

-2,4​

0,4​

-0,3​

-2,89​

0​

-2,89​

0​

0​

Komari

Settlement

Plains

Fish

Farm

140​

1,2​

0​

2,25​

0​

0​

-0,8​

0​

-1,5​

1,15​

0​

1,15​

0​

0​

Total Province

750​

44,7​

0,56​

18,15​

-29,5​

-21​

-29,8​

0,4​

-12,1​

-28,59​

16​

-12,59​

Increasing the imported foods to 8 trade routes out of 22 will achieve a positive balance.

This experiment has been on a tall nation. Other nations could be internally balanced. And other nations could have a food surplus to trade. Every +3 or +5 food surplus beyond the provincial food storage could be traded away by nations producing food.

These nations would be loosing and edge as they would be producing food instead of having citizens an nobles to create trade routes. They would be loosing goods bonuses and research points. Money cannot buy those now in game.

It seems the balance now sits on the inevitable abundance of goods and food.

With this system we are going to have winners and losers. How can a food producer nation have an edge to a food importing nation?

Or worse, food producing nations will optimize to have no surplus of food, because they will realize that trading away food surplus only helps their competitors. I already ban all food trade from start to keep the growth bonus for me. This will reach the point that there is no food to import and only one type of nation will be viable. The nation that produces enough food for its own consumption and has hundred of granaries for food storage.

Anyway, for me the experiment is valid. Conclusion: the world will be more competitive and less forgiven to the Player. And we have not touched levies and legions eating food. This is coherent with the suggestion brought forward: increase food management challenge.

 

[IsaacCAT]

On the previous scenario, the player would want to move some of the freemen in the cities to the food producing territories of Komari and Pseudostomos. However, as the game is now, the player cannot move freemen, you have to rely on migration.

I like migration being automatic and not micromanaged by the player. But in order to achieve the desired results, we would need to have a desire from POPs to migrate to those territories. This has to be the level of employment.

I have calculated employment in the cities with buildings creating jobs for POPs, considering the following:

• if there is a farming job free, it is used first before any building job
• farming jobs are minimum = Max food/0,30 (all produced by freemen) and maximum = Max Food/0,15 (all produced by slaves)
• Buildings and holdings all provide 2 jobs each for slaves, freemen or tribesmen
• if there are slaves, they will get the job first

And we obtain:

Territory

Dwelling

Terrain

Good

Food Building

Max food

Buildings&Holdings

Min Jobs (farming)

Max Jobs (farming)

Jobs (buildings&holdings)

Total average Jobs

Freemen

Tribesmen

Slaves

Freeman & Tribesmesn employment

Vanci

City

Hills

Base Metals

-

2​

7​

6,67​

13,33​

14​

24​

13​

0​

6​

4​

Muziris

City

Jungle

Spices

-

2,5​

9​

8,33​

16,67​

18​

30,5​

23​

0​

12​

-3​

Aloe

Settlement

Jungle

Leather

-

2,5​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

1​

0​

1​

10​

Pseudostomos

Settlement

Jungle

Fish

Farm

6,5​

1​

21,67​

43,33​

2​

34,5​

3​

0​

12​

14​

Nelcynda

Settlement

Jungle

Wood

-

2,5​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

1​

0​

1​

10​

Tropiana

Settlement

Hills

Spices

-

2​

2​

6,67​

13,33​

4​

14​

1​

0​

1​

9​

Bacare

Settlement

Jungle

Spices

-

2,5​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

9​

0​

6​

0​

Kottiara

Settlement

Jungle

Incense

-

2,5​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

10​

0​

5​

-1​

Elankon

City

Jungle

Gemstones

-

2,5​

6​

8,33​

16,67​

12​

24,5​

11​

0​

3​

7​

Aykudi

City

Hills

Dyes

-

2​

20​

6,67​

13,33​

40​

50​

61​

0​

56​

-61​

Balita

City

Plains

Dyes

-

3​

7​

10,00​

20,00​

14​

29​

12​

2​

3​

8​

Komari

Settlement

Plains

Fish

Farm

7​

1​

23,33​

46,67​

2​

37​

4​

0​

15​

13​

Total Province

37,5​

125,00​

250,00​

122,00​

309,50​

149,00​

2,00​

121,00​

10,00​

There is unemployment in Aykudi and Muziris, while there are free jobs in Pseudostomos and Komari. Because farming uses a lot of workforce compared to city buildings (something that was true until the industrial revolution).

Then migration mechanism should take this in consideration and make freemen and tribesmen POPs move where there are jobs from places without jobs.

Now the migration attraction does not take into account jobs openings:

Komari with 13 jobs openings should be attracting a lot of freemen from Aykudi city with unemployment of -61 for freemen and tribesmen.

Something to consider is if buildings&holdings POP jobs should be open to slaves. Recalculating with slaves only able to work in farming jobs we obtain:

Territory

Dwelling

Terrain

Good

Food Building

Max food

Buildings&Holdings

Min Jobs (farming)

Max Jobs (farming)

Jobs (buildings&holdings)

Total average Jobs

Freemen

Tribesmen

Slaves

Freeman & Tribesmesn potential jobs

Slaves Employed Farming

Slaves Potential Jobs

Vanci

City

Hills

Base Metals

-

2​

7​

6,67​

13,33​

14​

24​

13​

0​

6​

4​

6​

7​

Muziris

City

Jungle

Spices

-

2,5​

9​

8,33​

16,67​

18​

30,5​

23​

0​

12​

-3​

12​

4​

Aloe

Settlement

Jungle

Leather

-

2,5​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

1​

0​

1​

10​

1​

15​

Pseudostomos

Settlement

Jungle

Fish

Farm

6,5​

1​

21,67​

43,33​

2​

34,5​

3​

0​

12​

14​

12​

31​

Nelcynda

Settlement

Jungle

Wood

-

2,5​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

1​

0​

1​

10​

1​

15​

Tropiana

Settlement

Hills

Spices

-

2​

2​

6,67​

13,33​

4​

14​

1​

0​

1​

9​

1​

12​

Bacare

Settlement

Jungle

Spices

-

2,5​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

9​

0​

6​

0​

6​

10​

Kottiara

Settlement

Jungle

Incense

-

2,5​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

10​

0​

5​

-1​

5​

11​

Elankon

City

Jungle

Gemstones

-

2,5​

6​

8,33​

16,67​

12​

24,5​

11​

0​

3​

7​

3​

13​

Aykudi

City

Hills

Dyes

-

2​

20​

6,67​

13,33​

40​

50​

61​

0​

56​

-21​

13​

-43​

Balita

City

Plains

Dyes

-

3​

7​

10,00​

20,00​

14​

29​

12​

2​

3​

8​

3​

17​

Komari

Settlement

Plains

Fish

Farm

7​

1​

23,33​

46,67​

2​

37​

4​

0​

15​

13​

15​

31​

Total Province

37,5​

125,00​

250,00​

122,00​

309,50​

149,00​

2,00​

121,00​

50,00​

78,00​

123,00​

There is more unemployment of slaves (of course) and they will be migrating out from the cities to territories with employment.

With this configuration, slaves are less valuable as a class, and the player would seek to promote them asap. Specially, if buildings without producing POPs are not producing goods, and slaves are not allowed to take the job from freemen.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Finally, all things being equal, if we let the system migrate POPs to fill the jobs vacancies with slaves and freemen we obtain the following:

Territory

Dwelling

Terrain

Good

Food Building

Max food

Full Employment Freeman Food Prod

Full Employment Tribesman Food Prod

Full Employment Slave Food Prod

Nobles Food Cons

Citizen Food Cons

Freeman Food Cons

Tribesman Food Cons

Slave Food Cons

Total Food Produced

Total Food Consumed

Food balance

Imported Food

Food Surplus

Buildings&Holdings

Min Jobs (farming)

Max Jobs (farming)

Jobs (buildings&holdings)

Total average Jobs

Noblemen

Citizen

Freemen

Tribesmen

Slaves

Freeman & Tribesmesn Open jobs

Slaves Employed Farming

Slaves Potential Jobs

Vanci

City

Hills

Base Metals

-

2​

3,9​

0​

1,2​

-2,5​

-2,7​

-2,6​

0​

-0,8​

2​

-8,6​

-6,6​

0​

-6,6​

7​

6,67​

13,33​

14​

24​

5​

9​

13​

0​

8​

3​

8​

5,00​

Muziris

City

Jungle

Spices

-

2,5​

5,7​

0​

1,95​

-4​

-4,8​

-4,6​

0​

-1,3​

2,5​

-14,7​

-12,2​

0​

-12,2​

9​

8,33​

16,67​

18​

30,5​

8​

16​

19​

0​

13​

0​

13​

3,00​

Aloe

Settlement

Jungle

Leather

-

2,5​

1,8​

0​

0,75​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,5​

2,5​

-0,7​

1,8​

0​

1,8​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

0​

0​

6​

0​

5​

3​

5​

11,00​

Pseudostomos

Settlement

Jungle

Fish

Farm

6,5​

3​

0​

3​

0​

0​

-0,6​

0​

-2​

6​

-2,6​

3,4​

0​

3,4​

1​

21,67​

43,33​

2​

34,5​

0​

0​

10​

0​

20​

3​

20​

23,00​

Nelcynda

Settlement

Jungle

Wood

-

2,5​

1,5​

0​

0,75​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,5​

2,25​

-0,7​

1,55​

0​

1,55​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

0​

0​

5​

0​

5​

4​

5​

11,00​

Tropiana

Settlement

Hills

Spices

-

2​

1,2​

0​

0,6​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,4​

1,8​

-0,6​

1,2​

0​

1,2​

2​

6,67​

13,33​

4​

14​

0​

0​

4​

0​

4​

4​

4​

9,00​

Bacare

Settlement

Jungle

Spices

-

2,5​

2,1​

0​

1,35​

0​

0​

-1,8​

0​

-0,9​

2,5​

-2,7​

-0,2​

0​

-0,2​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

0​

0​

7​

0​

9​

0​

9​

7,00​

Kottiara

Settlement

Jungle

Incense

-

2,5​

2,4​

0​

1,2​

0​

0​

-2​

0​

-0,8​

2,5​

-2,8​

-0,3​

0​

-0,3​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

0​

0​

8​

0​

8​

0​

8​

8,00​

Elankon

City

Jungle

Gemstones

-

2,5​

3,9​

0​

0,9​

-2​

-1,8​

-2,2​

0​

-0,6​

2,5​

-6,6​

-4,1​

0​

-4,1​

6​

8,33​

16,67​

12​

24,5​

4​

6​

13​

0​

6​

4​

6​

10,00​

Aykudi

City

Hills

Dyes

-

2​

12​

0​

1,95​

-18,5​

-9​

-12,2​

0​

-1,3​

2​

-41​

-39​

16​

-23​

20​

6,67​

13,33​

40​

50​

37​

30​

40​

0​

13​

0​

13​

0,00​

Balita

City

Plains

Dyes

-

3​

4,5​

0,56​

1,05​

-2,5​

-2,7​

-2,4​

-0,4​

-0,7​

3​

-8,7​

-5,7​

0​

-5,7​

7​

10,00​

20,00​

14​

29​

5​

9​

15​

2​

7​

3​

7​

13,00​

Komari

Settlement

Plains

Fish

Farm

7​

2,7​

0​

3,45​

0​

0​

-0,8​

0​

-2,3​

6,15​

-3,1​

3,05​

0​

3,05​

1​

23,33​

46,67​

2​

37​

0​

0​

9​

0​

23​

4​

23​

23,00​

Total Province

37,5​

44,7​

0,56​

18,15​

-29,5​

-21​

-29,8​

-0,4​

-12,1​

35,7​

-92,8​

-57,1​

16​

-41,1​

125,00​

250,00​

122,00​

309,50​

59,00​

70,00​

149,00​

2,00​

121,00​

28,00​

121,00​

123,00​

From the initial situation, changing food and goods to be produced by POPs with different ratios and jobs dictating migration, the food balance comes to -57,1 units and no unemployment. There are 28 jobs in buildings and holdings not producing.

The distribution of POPs in the territory is more equal, almost doubling the MEDIAN to 29,5 instead of 17 in the current game (Median being the value separating the higher half from the lower half of number of POPs per territory).

 

[Gilbert95]

Considering the immense headache this causes in Stellaris, I would be reluctant to go down the route of jobs and job assignment priorities.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Great ideas in this post.

I think its alimentation system could be used to recreate situations similar to the Cimbrians and Teutons.

Teutons - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

One of the reasons for the emigration of these tribes was overpopulation and perhaps it could be represented by combining several factors.

Northern European tribes should have a lower maximum population capacity. This, along with your food ideas, should make you overcrowded. Instead of starving yourself, these extra pops will lower centralization and when they can create migratory hordes that will go to more fertile lands.

Maybe there could be some minor scripts for certain tribes to emigrate and have some balance in the north to avoid weird stuff, I don't know it's just an idea.
In the eastern area, the Yuezhi tribes added to the food that you propose could create interesting situations.

Now migration modifiers due to starvation are migration attraction for the territory and migration speed Imperator Wiki

That means that free POPs will migrate faster to other territories with better migration attraction and less POPs would like to come to this territory.

If we reach the point that whole regions in the north are starving, maybe POPs will migrate in mass to southern territories. This will not come naturally but as we have an event that increases POP growth due to higher temperatures, we could have seasonal draughts or freezing temperatures that decrease whole regions food production for a year.

The migration of these tribesman POPs will be paceful. However, once inside other nations territories, they will be unhappy and produce unrest.

The player that plays a tribe should know about these weather inclemencies and organize itself to migrate as a warrior tribe to settle in nicer territories. So the AI.

 

[cristofolmc]

Finally, all things being equal, if we let the system migrate POPs to fill the jobs vacancies with slaves and freemen we obtain the following:

Territory

Dwelling

Terrain

Good

Food Building

Max food

Full Employment Freeman Food Prod

Full Employment Tribesman Food Prod

Full Employment Slave Food Prod

Nobles Food Cons

Citizen Food Cons

Freeman Food Cons

Tribesman Food Cons

Slave Food Cons

Total Food Produced

Total Food Consumed

Food balance

Imported Food

Food Surplus

Buildings&Holdings

Min Jobs (farming)

Max Jobs (farming)

Jobs (buildings&holdings)

Total average Jobs

Noblemen

Citizen

Freemen

Tribesmen

Slaves

Freeman & Tribesmesn Open jobs

Slaves Employed Farming

Slaves Potential Jobs

Vanci

City

Hills

Base Metals

-

2​

3,9​

0​

1,2​

-2,5​

-2,7​

-2,6​

0​

-0,8​

2​

-8,6​

-6,6​

0​

-6,6​

7​

6,67​

13,33​

14​

24​

5​

9​

13​

0​

8​

3​

8​

5,00​

Muziris

City

Jungle

Spices

-

2,5​

5,7​

0​

1,95​

-4​

-4,8​

-4,6​

0​

-1,3​

2,5​

-14,7​

-12,2​

0​

-12,2​

9​

8,33​

16,67​

18​

30,5​

8​

16​

19​

0​

13​

0​

13​

3,00​

Aloe

Settlement

Jungle

Leather

-

2,5​

1,8​

0​

0,75​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,5​

2,5​

-0,7​

1,8​

0​

1,8​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

0​

0​

6​

0​

5​

3​

5​

11,00​

Pseudostomos

Settlement

Jungle

Fish

Farm

6,5​

3​

0​

3​

0​

0​

-0,6​

0​

-2​

6​

-2,6​

3,4​

0​

3,4​

1​

21,67​

43,33​

2​

34,5​

0​

0​

10​

0​

20​

3​

20​

23,00​

Nelcynda

Settlement

Jungle

Wood

-

2,5​

1,5​

0​

0,75​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,5​

2,25​

-0,7​

1,55​

0​

1,55​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

0​

0​

5​

0​

5​

4​

5​

11,00​

Tropiana

Settlement

Hills

Spices

-

2​

1,2​

0​

0,6​

0​

0​

-0,2​

0​

-0,4​

1,8​

-0,6​

1,2​

0​

1,2​

2​

6,67​

13,33​

4​

14​

0​

0​

4​

0​

4​

4​

4​

9,00​

Bacare

Settlement

Jungle

Spices

-

2,5​

2,1​

0​

1,35​

0​

0​

-1,8​

0​

-0,9​

2,5​

-2,7​

-0,2​

0​

-0,2​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

0​

0​

7​

0​

9​

0​

9​

7,00​

Kottiara

Settlement

Jungle

Incense

-

2,5​

2,4​

0​

1,2​

0​

0​

-2​

0​

-0,8​

2,5​

-2,8​

-0,3​

0​

-0,3​

2​

8,33​

16,67​

4​

16,5​

0​

0​

8​

0​

8​

0​

8​

8,00​

Elankon

City

Jungle

Gemstones

-

2,5​

3,9​

0​

0,9​

-2​

-1,8​

-2,2​

0​

-0,6​

2,5​

-6,6​

-4,1​

0​

-4,1​

6​

8,33​

16,67​

12​

24,5​

4​

6​

13​

0​

6​

4​

6​

10,00​

Aykudi

City

Hills

Dyes

-

2​

12​

0​

1,95​

-18,5​

-9​

-12,2​

0​

-1,3​

2​

-41​

-39​

16​

-23​

20​

6,67​

13,33​

40​

50​

37​

30​

40​

0​

13​

0​

13​

0,00​

Balita

City

Plains

Dyes

-

3​

4,5​

0,56​

1,05​

-2,5​

-2,7​

-2,4​

-0,4​

-0,7​

3​

-8,7​

-5,7​

0​

-5,7​

7​

10,00​

20,00​

14​

29​

5​

9​

15​

2​

7​

3​

7​

13,00​

Komari

Settlement

Plains

Fish

Farm

7​

2,7​

0​

3,45​

0​

0​

-0,8​

0​

-2,3​

6,15​

-3,1​

3,05​

0​

3,05​

1​

23,33​

46,67​

2​

37​

0​

0​

9​

0​

23​

4​

23​

23,00​

Total Province

37,5​

44,7​

0,56​

18,15​

-29,5​

-21​

-29,8​

-0,4​

-12,1​

35,7​

-92,8​

-57,1​

16​

-41,1​

125,00​

250,00​

122,00​

309,50​

59,00​

70,00​

149,00​

2,00​

121,00​

28,00​

121,00​

123,00​

From the initial situation, changing food and goods to be produced by POPs with different ratios and jobs dictating migration, the food balance comes to -57,1 units and no unemployment. There are 28 jobs in buildings and holdings not producing.

The distribution of POPs in the territory is more equal, almost doubling the MEDIAN to 29,5 instead of 17 in the current game (Median being the value separating the higher half from the lower half of number of POPs per territory).

Great analysis. How would you tackle that situation where in order to obtain enough food you have to lose all your jobs in the cities? So there can be both food and city jobs? Although I guess its realistic that a tall nation should rely on imports of food if it wants to be an urban producing kind of society. Its only realistic, isnt it? Its not the same as Rome. With your experiment, Rome would play historically. Freemen all over the world would be farming to be able to feed the roman capital cities in Latium, which wouldnt produce barely any food, only city jobs at the buildings, producing cloths, taxes, and whatnot

 

[cristofolmc]

Considering the immense headache this causes in Stellaris, I would be reluctant to go down the route of jobs and job assignment priorities.

What about a more automated and simplistic divisions of farming/urban job? Its either jobs on farming/mining (etc), but its grouped in code as one job), and then another type of job, which is urban jobs (producing taxes, science, city tradegoods, etc). As shown in the suggestion, it would be very much automated and the pops would migrate on their own where jobs of their type are required. Citizens would move to cities where urban jobs are empty and freemen and tribesmen would move to settlements where food/mining jobs are available.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Great analysis. How would you tackle that situation where in order to obtain enough food you have to lose all your jobs in the cities? So there can be both food and city jobs? Although I guess its realistic that a tall nation should rely on imports of food if it wants to be an urban producing kind of society.

Thank you. You have answered your own question: importing food.

What about a more automated and simplistic divisions of farming/urban job? Its either jobs on farming/mining (etc), but its grouped in code as one job), and then another type of job, which is urban jobs (producing taxes, science, city tradegoods, etc). As shown in the suggestion, it would be very much automated and the pops would migrate on their own where jobs of their type are required. Citizens would move to cities where urban jobs are empty and freemen and tribesmen would move to settlements where food/mining jobs are available.

Citizens and nobles do not work, they own the businesses (holdings, buildings, etc..) they do not move looking for jobs. Only freemen and tribesmen. Slaves you have to move them manually.

Two types of jobs: farming and buildings. Farming can be done by slaves, freemen and tribesmen. Buildings only by freemen and tribesmen. You decide about slaves, the others is automated by migration for jobs.

 

[cristofolmc]

Thank you. You have answered your own question: importing food.



Citizens and nobles do not work, they own the businesses (holdings, buildings, etc..) they do not move looking for jobs. Only freemen and tribesmen. Slaves you have to move them manually.

Two types of jobs: farming and buildings. Farming can be done by slaves, freemen and tribesmen. Buildings only by freemen and tribesmen. You decide about slaves, the others is automated by migration for jobs.

But what is it "building jobs" that you mention? The actual process of building, or job opennings to work in THOSE buildings?

 

[crownsteler]

Well done and thorough those scenario's!

Two quick notes:

With this system we are going to have winners and losers. How can a food producer nation have an edge to a food importing nation?

Or worse, food producing nations will optimize to have no surplus of food, because they will realize that trading away food surplus only helps their competitors. I already ban all food trade from start to keep the growth bonus for me. This will reach the point that there is no food to import and only one type of nation will be viable. The nation that produces enough food for its own consumption and has hundred of granaries for food storage.

Anyway, for me the experiment is valid. Conclusion: the world will be more competitive and less forgiven to the Player. And we have not touched levies and legions eating food. This is coherent with the suggestion brought forward: increase food management challenge.

I'd say that food shortages causing food trading to be both more limited and more important is a good thing:

1. You can program the AI to only trade away surplus food with nations they have a high opinion of, giving the player a reason to invest in relations important food producing states
2. You'd have an actual reason to go to war with states to secure your food supply; you could have to declare war to conquer food provinces, you could have a peace option to forcibly open up their food trade to you, and you could have to come to the defense of states which provide you with food.

Overal I'd say this is a good thing: It simulates the historical importance of the mediteranean grain trade, while offering up some new gameplay oppertunities. Though I'd like to add this would be the result of any limit to food production, not just the one I proposed or which are explored here.

On the previous scenario, the player would want to move some of the freemen in the cities to the food producing territories of Komari and Pseudostomos. However, as the game is now, the player cannot move freemen, you have to rely on migration.

I like migration being automatic and not micromanaged by the player. But in order to achieve the desired results, we would need to have a desire from POPs to migrate to those territories. This has to be the level of employment.

The easiest way to get POPs to migrate into the food provinces is to give all provinces with spare food production capacity a boost to migration attraction and migration speed (which can even be scaled by the amount of spare capacity).

I am intrigued by jobs, but find it hard to conceptualise what you mean. And, as others have said, the experience with jobs from stellaris is not great.

 

[IsaacCAT]

But what is it "building jobs" that you mention? The actual process of building, or job opennings to work in THOSE buildings?

POPs work in those buildings. The construction of the buildings has to be abstracted.

By the way, I have imagined a Builders Guild with engineers and constructors jobs for Characters in my last suggestion to the SPQR:

Mercenary Guild, Military Officers Association, Builders Guild, Cultists and Spy Guild

Preface: in the thread Parties and Families, an essay about power, @Bovrick stated his desire of having factions beyond parties, also @Ketchup & friends asked about the nature of character allegiances in respect of family, friends, spouses...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[cristofolmc]

POPs work in those buildings. The construction of the buildings has to be abstracted.

It would be nice to flesh out a realistic job implementation suggestion on the forums to go the fill circle so you can tie this suggestion with the jobs one.