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panzercracker

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There are 2 incorrect ideas for Dai Viet:

1. Village Militia: description say, "the backbone of Dai Viet army is peasants"!? This is wrong. Base on Vietnamese history documents like Đai Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư. Backbone of Dai Viet is Farming Soldier under "Ngụ Binh Ư Nông" systerm, it is translated as "Soldier stay in farm during peace time". They are professional soldiers, who serve in army from 16 to 60 (mostly entire his life). Those soldier will be give land for farming with no tax, all profit from farm is belong to them. Note, farmers in Medieval Vietnam are middle class in social system, not low class, thus you can call them "small landlord". Below farmer is self who work in farmer's farm. The rest of time, those farming soldier training martial art with supervisor from imperial army and each 3 month of yeah, they come to barrack for tactic training. When a farming soldier retire, he must let his son continue his military job or gorverment will take their land back, in Vietnamese history, some odds happen when a family don't has son, they let their daughter join army. And in Vietnamese history, many farming soldiers were promoted to Imperial Guards, if they are just militia, they will never become a imperial guard.

2. Don Dien: or Đồn Điền, is actually as same as Ngụ Binh Ư Nông, because the farm which give to farming soldier is called "don dien", the farming soldier is called "don dien quan" in Vietnamese. They're actually overlapping on Ngụ Binh Ư Nông. I think this idea should be replaced by Galley tradition warfare. In Vietnamese history, especially since 15 century, backbone of Dai Viet army is Navy (despite mostly on river and coast), and most warships are galleys, only Tây Sơn Rebel build European-based ship of the line with 50~66 canons.
 

Pilot00

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Nov 27, 2013
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While good to know that those are incorrect and I commend you for spotting those, we should all take a brake and stop learning history from wikipedia and computer games. There are many mistakes and abstractions and outright provocations sometimes. Dont get angry about it, it happens. It doesnt surprise me that it will happen more to far easter nations, not because I mean to imply that their history is not worthy, but because the western reader will have not paid any real attention most of the time to their cultural and historic background (asside from personal interest that is).

History is a fickle mistress and has been missinterpented a lot in the wrong away either by accident or (most of the time) by design.

Arent we all call the Romans Byzantines now anyway?
 

beckermt

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This is actually some of the most interesting history I've learned in a while. What a unique and interesting system for peacetime soliders!!

Thanks for sharing Panzerdude.
 

panzercracker

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Thanks to that system, Vietian can rise up and regain independent from China after 1000 years was conquered and annexed. Despite the intinial land is just = 1/3 modern North Vietnam. Vietian not only survived from next invasions from China, Mongol, but also expand to west (take lands from Dai Li - original nation of Siamese and Laotian), to south, annex Champa, take lands from Khmer to Ca Mau province by massive force despite small land from beginning.

How massive of Vietian army in the past by that system?
Ex: during the second invasion of Mongol, Dai Viet can summon armies of 300.000 regular/professional soldiers in total. With the early stage of invasion, 200.000 soldiers against Mongol-Yuan main force of 100.000~150.000 soldiers, but failed. And retreat to back-up defend line, and move other 100.000 to the north, which was guarding the south border. Include with more 200.000 concripts during war, all men were send to logistics corps, left women farming, transport foods. During Total-counter stage, 500.000 soldiers and concripts counter attack the Mongol-Yuan, and defeat them in half of month and win the war and even send 100.000 soldier to Champa to help them repel the Mongol.

Or in the Independent War in 15th century, Dai Viet's armies lead by Lê Lợi reach the number of 350.000 soldiers in the siege of Đông Quan (Hà Nội), despite Ming send renforcement of 150.000 soldiers (later is complete destroyed by 100.000 Dai Viet soldiers depatch from Đông Quan), they're still no march for Dai Viet's armies.

Actually, not many modern Vietnamese know about this due the history education in Vietnam is really boring and mostly focus on Vietnam War (you know why, lolz)