Incomplete management of vassal link: why cannot I be autonomous King and still Duke of some other?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Mike1984

Major
80 Badges
Sep 12, 2015
714
1.146
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
Also, out of curiosity:

Currently if the Duke of Aquitane inherits England or vice versa, it's likely that the duchy of aquitane will be granted to a new Duke. This would make the new file a vassal of England.

Under this proposal, who would the new Duke be vassal to? France? If so, then what on earth do you do to determine who should be the liege of newly conquered territories?

Asturias Holy Wars the Umayyads for Portucale. They give the duchy to someone else. If this guy now a vassal of the Umayyads because the title has historically been that? Is he independent because no one is king of Galicia? Or is he the vassal of the title granter? If it's the last one, why would the aforementioned new Duke of aquitane be vassal to France?

The difference is simple. If an English Duke inherits a French Duchy, that Duchy is still, legally-speaking, a vassal of the French crown. As such, it makes no sense for the English King to revoke it and re-grant it to someone else, any more than it would make sense for him to just unilaterally decree that his son was now the Duke of some Duchy in Germany that was under the control of some other ruler. No-one would recognise his authority to do so and, as such, the revocation or grant would have no practical effect, aside perhaps from giving the person in question a (rather dubious) claim on the title.

Conversely, if Asturias Holy Wars the Umayyads for Portucale and wins, then they own that Duchy by right of conquest, in the same way as William the Conqueror owned England by right of conquest. As such, the Duchy is seen as theirs by everyone relevant, and they are free to dispose of it as they wish.

The way I was thinking about it, the de jure empires, kingdoms and duchies would play no role in the process. It would simply be a question of how you obtained the land. If you obtained it by conquest, then it's yours, you can do whatever you like with it. If, on the other hand, you obtained it by inheritance, then whatever conditions were previously attached to the title continue to be attached to it. I.e., if the previous holder of the title was a vassal of someone other than your current liege, then you still owe fealty for that title to that person, unless you choose to explicitly declare independence (and fight for it). If you lost, then obviously the title could be revoked.


The game structures simply canät handle it, and it's the root of many of the problems the game suffers from.

Agreed, which is why it's an ideal situation, not one I expect to see implemented in CK2.

So what does pressing an inherited claim for aquitane do in this example?

It's been conquered, but for reasons related to inheritance. Does aquitane stay part of France, or is it part of England. And, as it was conquered, can the English King grant it, or is it still considered inherited and thus ungrantable?

If pressing claims leads to ungrantable land, then how on earth do you propose same religion people expand without going over the demesne limit? Especially if they are vassals

That is an interesting edge case, yes. In that case, I'd say that, for gameplay purposes, it would be part of England. You conquered the land by right of conquest, and the person who you were conquering it for agreed (implicitly) to pay homage to you for it.

If such a thing happened in reality, the King would almost certainly talk to the Duke beforehand and say "I'm pushing this on your behalf, provided you accept that it's now part of England", and the Duke would say "OK, sure". The whole "pushing your vassals' claims on another realm" thing is actually somewhat questionable historically (I can't really think of it happening to a united country, although it certainly did happen to an extent with the Welsh and Irish), but I think it's a gameplay abstraction that is necessary to handle issues with what people would and would not have considered a "justified" claim on land.

A problem that this raises - if you're not independent, you cannot grant (inherited) titles, since true ownership of the land belongs to your overlord. In a similar fashion, conquering within your own realm shouldn't give you the conquered titles, since there is little to no reason for the overlord to acknowledge your deposition of his loyal servant.

It depends on the relative strength of the overlord. France in the time period of the Hundred Years' War was in a position where the King had little real power. As a result, powerful Dukes could and did push to increase their own power. Of course, the overlord doesnt have to recognise it, and that is represented in-game by the ability to revoke Duchies.

The ability to sub-grant land was absolutely part of the feudal system, though. It was obviously not any more feasible for a Duke to control all of the land he was allocated than it was for a King to do so, so the Duke was expected to pass that land on to lower-level retainers. The King didn't particularly care what the Duke did, because the King already granted that Duke the land to do with as they wished, and giving away bits of it was a necessary part of that.

There is also no reason why conquering land outside your realm should give you the title, at least not one that is universally accepted - just because you've conquered Essex and claim to be Duke, there's no reason why England (or the legitimate Duke) should accept it, but yet in game you become Duke, the former Duke merely gets a claim - and worse still, everybody but the Duke seems to accept it.

Yes, which is why just occupying territory in a war doesn't give you the title to it. However, when you win a war with a defined CB, the peace treaty that is signed formally grants you control of that land. No-one can dispute the legality of that, even if they may well dispute the outcome by force later.

The whole fealty/homage thing just doesn't work in a computer game. I don't really think it's possible to make it work since it's entirely possible for someone to hold the (de jure) title to somewhere that has been lost in a war, provided that their home realm still accepts it. Just because the count of Rouen has been displaced by a Norse invader doesn't mean that France (and the rest of Christian Europe) doesn't still consider him to be the Count, just temporarily displaced. Similarly there are extant claims to titles that are long since lost by the claimant (The Queen of the UK still has "Duke of Normandy" in her full list (albeit only the Channel Islands count...), Spain has King of Jerusalem in the full list, and so on).

The existence of former holders of a title is represented by the "claim" system. If the former count of Rouen wants his land back, then he can push the claim in a war (or his liege can). And, generally, the sort of claims you're talking about with the UK and Spain are purely for show. The British Kings formally claimed the French throne all the way up until the French Revolution (at which point the claim became moot), but they made no genuine effort to enforce that claim after the Hundred Years' War, and no-one would have really accepted the claim had they tried.
 

Less2

Field Marshal
Jan 20, 2016
3.737
5.039
The Duke of Aquitaine and King of England could handle the situation by granting away counties and keeping the duchy for himself. Counts would pay taxes towards the Duke and the Duke pays the Aquitaine part of the taxes to France.

The duchy limit would need to be removed somehow or restricted (hold only 1 duchy per de jure kingdom maybe?).

The effective rule would be "You must hold a de jure title between the count/duke and king/emperor to remain in control of the vassal. If you lose it your vassal is now independent in the same way that granting a kingdom as a king makes them independent (since as Duke of Aquitaine granting the Duchy of Aquitaine is effectively the same action, you don't fall back on your non-dejure king of England)".

Not allowing vassals to grant titles to their own vassals is clearly out of the question for the CK2 engine and even in CK3 would make playing a vassal very unfun unless some massive changes were made.
 

TheDungen

Field Marshal
80 Badges
Jan 31, 2015
12.131
7.923
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
The Duke of Aquitaine and King of England could handle the situation by granting away counties and keeping the duchy for himself. Counts would pay taxes towards the Duke and the Duke pays the Aquitaine part of the taxes to France.

The duchy limit would need to be removed somehow or restricted (hold only 1 duchy per de jure kingdom maybe?).

The effective rule would be "You must hold a de jure title between the count/duke and king/emperor to remain in control of the vassal. If you lose it your vassal is now independent in the same way that granting a kingdom as a king makes them independent (since as Duke of Aquitaine granting the Duchy of Aquitaine is effectively the same action, you don't fall back on your non-dejure king of England)".

Not allowing vassals to grant titles to their own vassals is clearly out of the question for the CK2 engine and even in CK3 would make playing a vassal very unfun unless some massive changes were made.
Ah but you are too stuck in the strict tiers of crusader kings, the king of england could simply have appointed one of the counts under the duchy as something lower than a duke but higher than a count and thus avoided the issue entirly, or called himself great duke and made his vassal a duke or something. His problem would ofcourse be that once he handed over administrative powers to this "duke" he risked thta that duke may one day decide that paying taxes directly to the king of france was more to his liking at which point the king of england would have to go to war to keep the overlordship of the land.
The real system was really malleable which is again why the strict system of Ck2 is sucha bad representation for it.
 

Less2

Field Marshal
Jan 20, 2016
3.737
5.039
I'm talking the realistically implementable possibilities in a CK2 or CK2-like (i.e. CK3) game. You can't play 50 shades of grey with the rules of a video game.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

TheDungen

Field Marshal
80 Badges
Jan 31, 2015
12.131
7.923
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
I'm talking the realistically implementable possibilities in a CK2 or CK2-like (i.e. CK3) game. You can't play 50 shades of grey with the rules of a video game.
CK3 could and hopefully will be able to represent these matters better.
 

klinkvon13

Polish Plumber
68 Badges
Feb 16, 2010
549
487
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I finished the game that led to this thread.
Here how the game went, as one can see, the current de jure implementation can easily be abused in way that does not make sense in reality:
https://crusaderping.wordpress.com/...ish-neck-a-norman-yoke-crusader-kings-ii-2-5/

I find many comments interesting and gives interesting prospect for a possible CKIII. I do hope they consider a smart system for CKIII where liege/vassal are always tied to a give title, making many historical situation possible to transcribe in the game and, especially, to allow intrigues, alliances and such to work within several kingdoms within the player area of interest.