Incest marriages for all religions
- Thread starter Arona
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There is not allowed because of the same reason that polygamy is not allowed for Christians or that you can not divorce your spouse without the Pope's permission: religious law prohibits it. Back then, in the Middle Ages, marriage was only religious (there was concubinage but its offspring was not legitimate) and the Church was the ultimate authority about it. So if the Church said that it was not a marriage it was not, even if the one contracting it was the most powerful person on earth.
If you had doubts about it read about Robert II of France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_II_of_France
He 'married' his cousin without the Pope's approval, was excommunicated and forced to leave her (even if a priest had performed it). Her 'marriage' was never deemed as that.
If you had doubts about it read about Robert II of France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_II_of_France
He 'married' his cousin without the Pope's approval, was excommunicated and forced to leave her (even if a priest had performed it). Her 'marriage' was never deemed as that.
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You need to look up the definition of "Contract".
For one thing a Contract has witnesses. What are the witnesses going to say? "He said the marriage vows with his sister."
That doesn't make it a marriage.
It's important to understand that "marriage without a priest" is not a "secular marriage". The Church, as the remnant of the Roman legal system, controlled the institution of marriage. What they did not control until the lat Middle Ages/Renaissance was the *contracting* of marriages.
The distinction is subtle but important.
If you didn't ask the Pope you risked your spouse appealing to the Pope and reversing the decision. So in effect you had to ask the Pope. Also, remember that these were was no "divorce" in the modern sense, just a declaration the marriage was never valid.
Game of Thrones logic.
It doesn't work in real life. For one thing if your guards are willing to let you kill a priest they're as insane as you are and as liable to kill you. No, if you were a deviant you would have a "secret" marriage where you said the vows and then tried to create a fait acompli.
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Ok lets play along. Why he was forced to leave? where was his personal army, mercanerys, loyal bodyguards. Oh he didnt have any, what ruler he was if he didnt have power and money. Even pagan small chieftans had loyal subjects who were redy to die for they liege. And rember welsh barons who had loyal army and subjects who rebelled against king. Simple folk who were cared by theyir landlord were redy to die for liege no matter how twisted they leader was..
If you are small duke and pope comes with 10 000 army to show you how wrong your ways are then its smart for run for life or more smarter to not let make situation where you can die, be overthrows or other.
What would pope do if ruler of Holyroman empire decided to marry his sister. Yea he whould excomunicate him or even triger plots to kill that ruler or replace him. And smart ruler were scared of pope or just pious and didnt oppouse church.
You need pope approval for peaceful rule, but how boring it cab be if you have power to do what ever you want? Would church dare to strike country who has half of world power or do vassals dare to strike a sister-empress, who has loyal well trained and paid body guards. Mosty people dont to thing what lead to big failure or death, but some people dont even care.
History is gul of rulers who ruled few weeks or month and were killed or replaced becouse they werent smart and powerful to hold power and survive.
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Ehem, Robert II was King of France. Surely he had more power, money and military strenght than the pope. The Pope did not even threat him to use its military power, he only excommunicated him ad was forced to abandon his cousin. His marriage was not even deemed as one by anyone, his marriage did not even exist. It was never no more that a concubinage (lovers in Crusader Kings' christian terms. Their offpring would always be bastards).That's why being a powerful ruler does not make you able to marry whoever you want against the rules of the Church. Is that complicated for you to understand?
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If 2 people cosider them self married then they are married only question is that are others approve that, but that dosent matter. Vikings disnt had pope - But they still were marriaged. They had concubines and their children still inherited lands. Some children were not suported from small folk, but it didnt matter, if he had silver he raised army and took what he considered his.
So if 2 people consider them self married and all the world hate them, does it brokes 2 peoples loyality to each other i think no. Pope aproval are not some divane force. Yes pope can ruin your life, can make everyone hate you, and make no one wants to fight for you ak give you harsh levy penalty, but you can recruit massive pagan army, and if not you are doomed. Thats ruler problem if he does something he cant handle.
And like someone pointed out it is not considered as marriage by eyes of others and childs are bastards. Childs are bastards for rest of world, but thouse who hold power dont care about it.
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I undrestand what you mean. So he didnt have enought power to defend his posision and belives. He choosed safe road, He didnt take risk, that some of his guards would kill him or something like that. So he had low capability to hold a apower and endorce his laws and belives
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Marriage is not social contract, it only matters then if you care what others belive. Marriage is alliance between 2 peoples, sometimes expanded to familys and tribes, counrtys. Marriage is not only christian privileg it was event then if people lived in caves, they vowe or just intinctly gave thay loyality to eachother, they didnt need priests for aprove it. And if someone was against it they it was they problem.
Pope will is just a law what can be enforced by different kind a power but this power is not absolote.
i can explain it with god effect. We humans consider cannibalism as taboo and high criminal acts, almost all countrys consider it as crimality, and breaking that law there is harsh punishment. And naw is time to bring on god effect, what if police, cant capture criminal, or police cant over power him/her or my favorite- Police cant event come to close him becouse he has ome odd supernatural power, what prevent anyone to come close. So police/ goverment dont have a power to enforce the law. Rules are olnly for weak.
Ad some is for pope, pope can enforce laws only on thouse whi he can ower power, by force, political reach or some other kind force.
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arona doesn't understand Catholicism or morality and so is just spouting nonsense.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_to_Canossa
He can bring an Emperor to wear simple robes, walk by foot across the Alps, have him wait 3 days in a blizzard and then make him kneel and ask forgiveness.
Yeah... the Pope has no power at all.
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This may be true for the peasantry. Hell, even today, in the country I am currently live in, a lot of the "marriages" are just weddings and exchanges of land and money. It's a little different for the nobility though, where a lot more is at stake and the clergy has direct influence.
It's not just that--he doesn't seem to understand the concept of rule of law, either.
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It didn't end well for the Pope, though.
But I agree, Popes were more powerful than you might think at first. Look at Henry VIII of England, he wanted just a divorce, not something like a marriage with his sister, and he had to secede from the Catholic Church, which at the moment was weaker than ever in the middle of the Reformation and the Pope still didn't sanctioned that divorce. It is unthinkable that something like that might have happened in the Middle Ages.
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Its important that he didn't really want a divorce in the modern sense, as these didn't exist at the time. This is because according to the bible marriage is for eternity, so for a marriage to be seen as no longer there between two participants an "annulment" was called where it was said the marriage wasn't valid in the first place (usually on the grounds of no children i.e. god has forsaken their union, or adultery before marriage etc.)
BUT even during the middle ages this was a very tricky and expensive process, especially for feudal rulers who were under strict scrutiny from the church, who didn't want to be granting annulments here there and everywhere. In the cultural context of the era this was literally a matter of eternal damnation or eternal bliss.
EDIT: Especially seeing as the reformist ideas of a "personal" religion were almost heretical, meaning if the Catholic Church disapproved of you, people thought god did too.
It didn't end well for either of them. The Pope faced opposition in his own ranks (there was even an assassanation attempt) and the Emperor slowly but steadily lost control over the empire, which had lords that supported him and lords that supported the Pope. Several civil wars ensued, eventually Henry even had to fight his very own son (and died 9 days after defeating him in battle).
Anyway (and I think we agree here) any incestous marriage would have been declared illegal and noone would have had the power in Christian Europe to challenge this. Not to mention the public outcry.
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But still, you can get Breakfest at McDonalds at 3pm.... if you bring a gun.
I mean, you are the King/Emperor and even if the church frowns upon it, you should be able to.
Just give him a huge penalty and let it maybe end in excommunication.
Let people be able to wreck their dynasty the way they find appropriate
It would be fun and poses no real issue if you dont want to do such things.
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But still, you can get Breakfest at McDonalds at 3pm.... if you bring a gun.
I mean, you are the King/Emperor and even if the church frowns upon it, you should be able to.
Just give him a huge penalty and let it maybe end in excommunication.
Let people be able to wreck their dynasty the way they find appropriate
It would be fun and poses no real issue if you dont want to do such things.
People can already do that it's called the freaking console and marry_anyone.
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