Incentivise Diffuse Fleets to Improve Naval Strategy

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Arthrodira

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Stellaris is a terrific game, but the naval combat always felt very bland to me. There's plenty of strategy in fleet composition and ship design, but little in naval warfare and fleet deployment. Rarely is it advantageous to divide your grand fleet before contesting the enemy's grand fleet; consequently, wars are typically decided in a single enormous battle. This is unrealistic. This is not fun.

As an FTL empire can strike anywhere with little warning, you should feel the need to protect all your holdings all the time. Think of HOI4 - any segment of the front without a unit constantly defending it is subject to instantaneous capture by the enemy. The war is thus a long slog fought on several fronts each with a fraction of the total strength of both empires. Determining how best to allocate your limited resources is the strategy that keeps you up at night. A larger, more advanced fleet would not necessarily be guaranteed victory if overcommitted to one system to the detriment of others. I'm not saying that grand fleets shouldn't be an option, but they should be discouraged. A grand fleet will do better in any single engagement, but while it's stuck fighting one battle the enemy can capture several other undefended systems simultaneously with their smaller fleets for example.

There are many ways to fix this and encourage diffuse fleets: scale fleet movement speed with fleet size (larger = slower), make naval engagements take longer, add civilian trade networks that must be defended or risk losing vital resources, make planetary bombardments more destructive to infrastructure and population (a single battleship left unopposed should be able to obliterate the population and economy of a planet), give pops more agency in war enthusiasm.

You incentivise diffuse fleets when the coast of a single unopposed ship is too great to temporarily ignore. Your people should be furious if you go to war and leave them undefended, even if the enemy never touches them. And maybe your grand fleet does win the day, but the destruction done to your empire because of your negligent defense should cripple you for years.
 

Kamakaze Panda

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This is a topic brought up loads and most changes really don't change the core issue that it's strategic to use a doomstack, fleet caps and such just mean you bring two fleets instead.

However your suggestions are pretty interesting and I think this is the only way you can make having larger fleets worth it. Perhaps drastically decreasing FTL speed in general would also be a good start, but of course this is a personal thing, I prefer slow FTL and slowed expansion.

I very much agree there needs to be some incentive to actually defend your territory and have potential damage inflicted on your space by the AI.

Perhaps as a small fix, make battle less decisive, allow more vessels to escape etc.
 

Joe Joerson

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I'd agree with the civilian trade networks and perhaps the pops war enthusiasm (depending on implementation), however I am unsure with the fleet movement speed and the level of destruction as you describe would be best. The speed seems extremely hard to justify but before I go further on that I should ask if by 'fleet size' you mean the naval capacity or the amount of ships in a fleet. I would agree that perhaps planetary bombardments might need to be more destructive but I don't think the scale of a battleship destroying the economy of an entire planet is even if unopposed is a good idea, I think a fleet of vessels would be a better scale for serious damage.

I am however ambivalent on naval engagement length.
 

extrapancake

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, add civilian trade networks that must be defended or risk losing vital resources
This, along with military supply routes would be great. It makes sense to have massive decisive battles when two empires face off, but there still needs to be other stuff to do with your ships than bunch them up and bash them against each other.
 

Arthrodira

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I agree, but wonder if this thread wouldn't fit better on the 'suggestions' sub forum.

I personally don't view this as a suggestion per se, but a constructive critique and an examination of plausible solutions, but perhaps I'm wrong. I wasn't trying to advocate any particular change, but outline a problem I have with the current state-of-the-game, see if others agree, and explore the potentials solutions.

I'd agree with the civilian trade networks and perhaps the pops war enthusiasm (depending on implementation), however I am unsure with the fleet movement speed and the level of destruction as you describe would be best. The speed seems extremely hard to justify but before I go further on that I should ask if by 'fleet size' you mean the naval capacity or the amount of ships in a fleet. I would agree that perhaps planetary bombardments might need to be more destructive but I don't think the scale of a battleship destroying the economy of an entire planet is even if unopposed is a good idea, I think a fleet of vessels would be a better scale for serious damage.

I am however ambivalent on naval engagement length.

Everything would of course be subject to implementation. Ship specifics don't matter very much to me - you're right, one battleship probably shouldn't be enough to destroy an entire planet's economy, but there is some number and it must be low enough to encourage fleet diffusion. MEIOU & Taxes 2.0 (the EU4 mod) is my primary inspiration here. In real wars citizens don't care if only a few cities (read planets) were sacrificed in order to capture thrice that, citizens fundamentally demand security. Any occupied territory is too much. The primary goal is just to strongly encourage you to defend your systems and to prioritize your citizens' defense over offense, as most real states do. Also, I meant the amount of ships in the fleet; the justification would be the difficulty of coordinating movement as the number of ships increases, but the goal would be to improve gameplay.
 

terrycloth

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Maybe if capturing territory during a war let you extract some of the resources from that territory? Occupied population could work for you as if enslaved, and mining stations would give you their stuff. Then you could also periodically trigger revolts on occupied worlds so that you had to leave behind some of your army to secure them. And pops would gradually leave as refugees if the occupation went on too long.

And bombardment could be much much better at destroying buildings. Turning a city into a ruin is pretty easy, even if it doesn't usually kill all the people. The expectation from the different bombardment stances could be:

Limited: pops and buildings intact
Moderate: most pops alive, buildings ruined
Full: many pops dead, buildings ruined, some tile blockers
(Armageddon: everyone is dead)
 

ISitOnGnomes

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Just make it so fleet power has diminishing returns when over a set amount of fleet capacity in the system. This limit could be modified by various means like tech, edicts, civics, perks or ruler traits.

Basically at the begining of the game that limit might be 30 fleet capacity per system. The first 30 fleet capacity would provide its full fleet power. Every additional point of fleet cap in the system would suffer an increasing penalty to its power. So, each additional ship is still giving some amount of bonus, but it is less than it would normally be. The number of fleets wouldn't matter, only the total fleet capacity used in the system.

This would also help small empires or those on the defense from being completely curbstomped. This would have the problem of maki g federations more powerful, since each nation could have its own full powered 30 cap fleet present while the single empire would have to bring way more than N*30 ships to be equal, but then again they would most likely take the edicts/civics/perks to increase their maximum fleet cap per system. So i suppose it could be made to work.