Incentive to Keep USA out of the War

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Theodorian

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A large issue in Single Player (fixed in MP via rules) is that the United States often joins the war as soon as possible. I believe the United States should have an incentive to stay out of the war until the following:

1. They are attacked (as was the case with Pearl Harbor).
2. They are Declared War upon (as was the case of Nazi Germany)
3. Two of three capitals are not owned by their respective nations: Paris, London, Moscow. (Add "Capitulation" as well, since metagamers such as myself would simply surround London/Moscow but never take it. xD)

If one or more of these three are not reached, allow the United States to declare war at a cost of -40% National Unity perhaps? Currently, National Unity has little real purpose, but by this action, you could generate some true threat by a "divided" America that could easily be kicked out of the war if things don't go as planned.

I welcome your thoughts and suggestions.
 

Tacticus101

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It isn't like they are too much of a threat if you are Germany anyway.

However, on historical I don't find it too bad. The AI generally joins the war reasonably late, though often before the Japanese attack, but it isn't like they join in 1939. The reason the rules exist in MP is because Humans are not bound by the normal joining rules, you don't need a good opinion; hence why nations like Spain, Romania, Turkey etc often end up in ahistorical factions.
 

Dalwin

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They weren't a threat in version 1.3.0-1.3.2 because of a bug which got 100+ American divisions stuck at sea suffering 30% attrition due to lack of transports (after they were already at sea on boats???) That bug is now fixed so once America is ready you will see large invasions which if you have not yet finished off Russia can be a problem. If you are finishing Russia before this becomes a problem you make want to kick the difficulty sliders up a notch or 2.

As to the OP's point I do not agree that America needs an incentive to stay out of the war. In MP it is usually addressed by house rules as you point out. In SP it should be addressed by further tweaking WT and the trigger points in various US NFs.

On the topic of the usefulness of NU, I would like to see it tie into production or research with a small bonus or penalty. Perhaps 80% should be the break even point and each 5% above or below that raises or lowers your production and research by 1%. This would be a bit like the stability concept in some Paradox games.
 

Tacticus101

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They weren't a threat in version 1.3.0-1.3.2 because of a bug which got 100+ American divisions stuck at sea suffering 30% attrition due to lack of transports (after they were already at sea on boats???) That bug is now fixed so once America is ready you will see large invasions which if you have not yet finished off Russia can be a problem. If you are finishing Russia before this becomes a problem you make want to kick the difficulty sliders up a notch or 2.

They arnt really a problem at the moment because when controlled by a human Germany can get to such obscene levels of factory numbers that they far out produce the Americans. Having an AI with half your factories try to land on your ports is really not a big threat, even with large AI bonuses.
 

Comrade110

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In vanilla the USA is pretty weak (on industry) you dont feel the "oh shit I have woke up the beast" moment like the Axis felt irl when they dragged USA to war.

USA is in-game just way weaker germany, which is really ridiciulous if you ask me.
 

Dalwin

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They arnt really a problem at the moment because when controlled by a human Germany can get to such obscene levels of factory numbers that they far out produce the Americans. Having an AI with half your factories try to land on your ports is really not a big threat, even with large AI bonuses.
That depends on whether you are playing a more historical game or allowing yourself to take advantage by doing things like conquering the Dutch in 1936. Easy is as easy does if you will. If you are finding the game too easy, my advice is to stop doing the things that are making it too easy.
 

Theodorian

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There should be a device in the game that makes the United States unable to join besides House Rules. We shouldn't have to make additional rules to make the game functional.

Imagine literally any other game where the game was 95% functional and players were forced to make additional rules by themselves to improve it. You can simply use history as an example. The United States did not declare war on Nazi Germany because even as late as 1940 upwards of 40% of the population wished to remain isolationist.
 
Last edited:

Dalwin

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There should be a device in the game that makes the United States unable to join besides House Rules. We shouldn't have to make additional rules to make the game functional.
In SP you have the WT system. This is functional., though still being tweaked.

It requires house rules in MP because the game lets humans form factions with each other at almost any point and in any combination of alignments. If the players actually wish a game that is Germany and Russia versus the world, nothing stops them. The system is very flexible in that regard, not restricting unduly how an MP group wishes to run their game.

The house rules are NOT to make it functional. They are simply a set of gentlemen's agreements whereby a group tailors the game as they wish amidst the sometimes excessive flexibility.
 
Last edited:

aruon

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a good way to prevent the US from joining a faction (or DOWing for that matter) if you're germany is to just keep good relations with the US. it isn't guaranteed but it'll help.

though if FDR fails to get reelected i think the US should probably get a neutral policy modifier that can only be broken if the US is DOWed.
 

Tacticus101

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That depends on whether you are playing a more historical game or allowing yourself to take advantage by doing things like conquering the Dutch in 1936. Easy is as easy does if you will. If you are finding the game too easy, my advice is to stop doing the things that are making it too easy.

No need to sound quite so patronising.

Playing a historical game, including no un-historical conquests, releasing Vichy France and distributing occupied territory historically (ie, no taking all of Yugoslavia for yourself) still lets Germany have more civilian and military factories than the USA, as well as being able to build enough synthetic refineries to solve resource issues.

And I am not suggesting the game is too easy, I can and do increase the difficulty, limit myself or play minors. The game is fine (though obviously the AI can be improved and such), Germany is just really overpowered in the current patch.
 

Juan Peron 2

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In vanilla the USA is pretty weak (on industry) you dont feel the "oh shit I have woke up the beast" moment like the Axis felt irl when they dragged USA to war.

USA is in-game just way weaker germany, which is really ridiciulous if you ask me.

I don't think the Axis really felt that. My understanding is that the Germans felt it would be a good two years until the US was any sort of threat, during which time they would have beaten Russia and it would basically be impossible for the Allies to Invade Europe and the war would end in a brokered deal.

In reality, it was about 18 months until the US was a real threat (landing in Italy). All in All, the Germans had a full summer in 1941, all of 1942, and the first 6 months of 1943 to beat Russia and couldn't do it.
 

Tacticus101

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I don't think the Axis really felt that. My understanding is that the Germans felt it would be a good two years until the US was any sort of threat, during which time they would have beaten Russia and it would basically be impossible for the Allies to Invade Europe and the war would end in a brokered deal.

In reality, it was about 18 months until the US was a real threat (landing in Italy). All in All, the Germans had a full summer in 1941, all of 1942, and the first 6 months of 1943 to beat Russia and couldn't do it.

Yeah, although I should point out that the Germans vastly underestimated the US economy. They just dismissed what turned out to be accurate predictions of American production. Which is why they thought they had plenty of time.

Also, the US was lend leasing vast amounts of equipment, whilst in the game they barely have the military factories to equip their own army, let alone supply half the Soviets.
 

Sourlol

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Also, the US was lend leasing vast amounts of equipment, whilst in the game they barely have the military factories to equip their own army, let alone supply half the Soviets.

Dunno, most Russians would disagree with most Americans as to how much we were actually lend leasing. Since the end of the Cold War there has been sort of a collective awakening in the US in regards to USSR contributions in WW2. Even still there is a myth that with out the US' production the USSR would have fell. Most data I've seen is to the contrary. By the time US material started making it's way to the front the Russians had begun to turn the tide. That isn't to say the equipment wasn't welcome with open arms or that it was helpful. But US material was not the crutch that kept the Soviets alive that some Westerners make it out to be.
 

Secret Master

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There should be a device in the game that makes the United States unable to join besides House Rules. We shouldn't have to make additional rules to make the game functional.

There is.

The problem is that there are ways a human can manipulate the system to get around it. This is actually by design, as there are players that want to do whatever with the US. You and I both know how much whining there would be if it was harder to get the US into the war.

What this means is that the game has loose restrictions so players can do stuff, but you need house rules to prevent players from circumventing them in MP if you want anything resembling a real WWII.

The game is functional, it's just that the design decision in this case caters to one group of players over another.

Personally, I'd love to mod the game at some point to remove NFs (like Venezuela war focus) that are banned in house rules. But that's a lot of work for something that is essentially solved by telling people "Just don't do it." in your games.
 

melkor88

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I really do feel that the USA shouldn't even be able to join the war unless attacked. The American public had no appetite for getting involved, and even when attacked by the Japanese, Roosevelt choose not to declare war on Germany.

I mainly say this as World Tension hits 100% way too quickly, which then allows the US to join years before they did, and without being attacked first.

I would like to see this in Historical mode only.
 

Dalwin

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I have to strongly disagree with the notion that America would not have intervened unless attacked. For one thing that is not at all certain. For another, it would be terrible game design and easily manipulated. Who in their right mind would ever attack the USA in MP games until after Russia and Britain had fallen?

WT may still be rising a bit too quickly, but it is better than it was at initial release. In our current MP game we have reached the second half of '39. The war started a few months early. China, Poland and Benelux have all fallen, as has Paris. France will capitulate any day now. WT is 85%.

Frankly, if both France and China have fallen, WT should reach 100%. I also believe the US would be gearing for the inevitable war at this point. We may have been slow to get fully involved but we would have done so. We were already fighting uboats without having declared war.
 

Tacticus101

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Dunno, most Russians would disagree with most Americans as to how much we were actually lend leasing. Since the end of the Cold War there has been sort of a collective awakening in the US in regards to USSR contributions in WW2. Even still there is a myth that with out the US' production the USSR would have fell. Most data I've seen is to the contrary. By the time US material started making it's way to the front the Russians had begun to turn the tide. That isn't to say the equipment wasn't welcome with open arms or that it was helpful. But US material was not the crutch that kept the Soviets alive that some Westerners make it out to be.

My understanding was that it was precisely the opposite. Since the end of the cold war there has been increasing access to Russian archives and information from WW2; the Soviet propaganda figure of 4% of Soviet production being supplied by the allies has been demonstrated to be completely false, the numbers are more in the region of 20-50% of production depending on the type of equipment (100% in one case actually). Hell, there are quotes from Stalin, Zhukov and Khrushchev that have emerged in more recent times that outright say "without lend lease we would have lost the war", in almost those exact words.

Also, you refer to specifically to US lend lease, which is true was not in significant numbers until 42 and later. However, British lend lease began arriving in Russia only weeks after the start of the war, with large amounts of equipment arriving to fill crucial gaps left due to early losses and the slowdown in production as the factories were moved to Siberia. I have read some articles that say that as much as 40% of the Medium and Heavy tanks and 15% of the fighters defending Moscow by December were lend leased.

I should note, I am not suggesting that the US won the war for everyone or that the USSR didn't win the war. I honestly think that without any one of the allies the war would have been lost. However, I think it is fair to illustrate quite how much equipment was sent as lend lease to the Soviets and the UK. The fact that the USA could outfit a huge military AND supply both the USSR and UK with massive amounts of equipment is just not represented in a game where both the Germans and the Soviets outproduce them.

I have to strongly disagree with the notion that America would not have intervened unless attacked. For one thing that is not at all certain. For another, it would be terrible game design and easily manipulated. Who in their right mind would ever attack the USA in MP games until after Russia and Britain had fallen?

WT may still be rising a bit too quickly, but it is better than it was at initial release. In our current MP game we have reached the second half of '39. The war started a few months early. China, Poland and Benelux have all fallen, as has Paris. France will capitulate any day now. WT is 85%.

Frankly, if both France and China have fallen, WT should reach 100%. I also believe the US would be gearing for the inevitable war at this point. We may have been slow to get fully involved but we would have done so. We were already fighting uboats without having declared war.

I agree with this. If you set up the game historically, without China capitulating, world tension is under 40% at the start of the war. We actually had a very awkward situation in one MP game where world tension was actually so low that Poland couldn't join the allies when attacked because world tension was so low.

Also, even once France falls and world tension skyrockets, the US still has to remove the great depression and Isolation before it can actually produce decent military factory numbers, let alone join the war. It will easily take a year from the fall of France before they can actually have much influence.