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unmerged(76687)

Second Lieutenant
May 20, 2007
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I'm playing EUIII v1.3.
After finishing the game with several European and Asian nations I decided to try my luck in South America.
So, I started as Inca Empire...
To my surprise at the begining of the game I had not a single fort, yup no forts at all... :wacko:
And then I find out that my "Empire" is in fact a "Tribal Despotism"?! :confused:
Furthermore ideas set for the AI are all wrong:
deus_vult
divine_supremacy
patron_of_art
national_conscripts
military_drill
glorious_arms
battlefield_commisions
superior_seamanship
merchant_adventures
excellent_shipwrights
Deus Vult and Divine Supremacy as first two NI?!?! :rofl:
And my maximum manpower is just above 10k... :eek:

Now, is there some patch or expansion or something to fix this or will I have to change aproriate files myself to reasonbly corespond the history?
 
May 23, 2006
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caliburn said:
I'm playing EUIII v1.3.
After finishing the game with several European and Asian nations I decided to try my luck in South America.
So, I started as Inca Empire...
To my surprise at the begining of the game I had not a single fort, yup no forts at all... :wacko:
And then I find out that my "Empire" is in fact a "Tribal Despotism"?! :confused:
Furthermore ideas set for the AI are all wrong:
deus_vult
divine_supremacy
patron_of_art
national_conscripts
military_drill
glorious_arms
battlefield_commisions
superior_seamanship
merchant_adventures
excellent_shipwrights
Deus Vult and Divine Supremacy as first two NI?!?! :rofl:
And my maximum manpower is just above 10k... :eek:

Now, is there some patch or expansion or something to fix this or will I have to change aproriate files myself to reasonbly corespond the history?
I dont really understand your problem. You can pick the NI you want if you play from 1453, those listed are for the AI to pick them.
 

PrawnStar

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Quite a lot of nations start unfortified - try Kazan and pick a fight with Lithuania - I got owned in 1467!

You pick your NIs althought an American Native country with naval ideas seems slightly odd given the distinct lack of ships...
 

Boblof

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the lack of forts is just so that the AI will have an easier time to take them out.
 

insolent1

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Well the american pagan nations didn't really go for fortifications. While there where some they weren't common. Its also to simulate how easy it was to conquer them. Cortez had to siege the Aztec capital but I don't think it rivaled what the rest of the world was using as fortifications, I think the canal system in the city was one of the biggest obstacles. In one of my French games when I went to conquer the Inca's they had reached landtech 1 & had built fortifications in all their provinces. It really made conquering them hard as all my troops had to shipped in from north america but I was able to assault easily due to the massive tech advantage.
 

Boblof

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insolent1 said:
Well the american pagan nations didn't really go for fortifications. While there where some they weren't common. Its also to simulate how easy it was to conquer them. Cortez had to siege the Aztec capital but I don't think it rivaled what the rest of the world was using as fortifications, I think the canal system in the city was one of the biggest obstacles. In one of my French games when I went to conquer the Inca's they had reached landtech 1 & had built fortifications in all their provinces. It really made conquering them hard as all my troops had to shipped in from north america but I was able to assault easily due to the massive tech advantage.
the Inca empire actually had pretty extensive stone fortifications, something they had in common with preceding nations/cultures in that area. the fact that they were easy to subdue IRL was that when pizzarro found them they were in the final stages of a civil war in which the emperor Atahualpa killed his brother Huáscar. pizzarro killed athahualpa after taking him hostage after winning an ambush. the inca empire then had endured a devasting civil war, had no direct heir to the throne and was decimated by european desieases that killed off 90% of the population. the empire fell into anarchy and the spanish probably had no problem playing of local warlords against eachother.
to be honest their weakness is not really in line with EU3 dynamic idea.
btw trhink you have them confused with the Aztec empire with IMHO was nothing more than an alliance between three tribes that held an hegomony over the other tribes in the area.
 
Last edited:

Aethis

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Wood weapons with sharp bits of stone in!
 

insolent1

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Boblof said:
the Inca empire actually had pretty extensive stone fortifications, something they had in common with preceding nations/cultures in that area. the fact that they were easy to subdue IRL was that when pizzarro found them they were in the final stages of a civil war in which the emperor Atahualpa killed his brother Huáscar. pizzarro killed athahualpa after taking him hostage after winning an ambush. the inca empire then had endured a devasting civil war, had no direct heir to the throne and was decimated by european desieases that killed off 90% of the population. the empire fell into anarchy and the spanish probably had no problem playing of local warlords against eachother.
to be honest their weakness is not really in line with EU3 dynamic idea.
btw trhink you have them confused with the Aztec empire with IMHO was nothing more than an alliance between three tribes that held an hegomony over the other tribes in the area.

Agreed its natural that any man wants to protect what he owns so they would have had strongholds but I don't really think they would have been comparable to the rest of the worlds fortifications. Although I would imagine that a lot of them would have been very hard to reach. Didn't Pizzaro turn one of the Inca's forts against them when he was holding the King prisoner?
The spainish used unortodox methods which made forts pretty useless against them.
Diseases weren't too much of an issue when Pizzaro first got there it was only after many more spainish came that diseases became a big factor. Instability was the biggest factor for the downfall of the Inca's but in saying that if they hadn't have fallen to Pizzaro & his group they would have faced much larger & more organised invasions & would not have fared well against european siege tatics regardless of their fortifications.

The Aztec's dug their own grave by the way they dealt with the surrounding people so it was only a matter of time till something or someone unified them against the Aztec's.

With regards to wood weapons theres nothing really wrong with them its all in how you use a weapon as compared to the weapon although gunpowder had a wow factor that could turn battles against the unexperienced. They used obsidian which is nearly as good as the metals used by the europeans and it could be just as sharp. Stone age man used flint for skinning animals that was just as sharp as our modern day surgical equipment ie 1 molecule thinkness
 
Last edited:

Charle_88

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One of the main advantages against the Aztec at least was the European use of horses, IIRC. For one they made the Aztecs panic ("OMG! MONSTERS! =O") and they also provided a degree of mobility and transport capacity the Aztec could nod achieve in the same extent.
 

Boblof

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insolent1 said:
Agreed its natural that any man wants to protect what he owns so they would have had strongholds but I don't really think they would have been comparable to the rest of the worlds fortifications. Although I would imagine that a lot of them would have been very hard to reach. Didn't Pizzaro turn one of the Inca's forts against them when he was holding the King prisoner?
The spainish used unortodox methods which made forts pretty useless against them.
Diseases weren't too much of an issue when Pizzaro first got there it was only after many more spainish came that diseases became a big factor. Instability was the biggest factor for the downfall of the Inca's but in saying that if they hadn't have fallen to Pizzaro & his group they would have faced much larger & more organised invasions & would not have fared well against european siege tatics regardless of their fortifications.
the Incan fortifications were comparable or even sometimes better than European counterparts, have you seen pictures of Machu pitchu? I doubt that the spaniards used such innovative new methods that the incans didn't stand a chance, hell the british had great diffuculty breaking thru Maori fortifications in the 19th century and thoose were not even made of stone (although the maoris had muskets).
and as far as I know the Inca did not attack while the emperor was a hostage of pizzarro.
besides you have to see that the spanish "army" that conquored was originally only 200 men. when Atahualpa was killed pizzarro amassed a native army to take the rest of the land just like Cortez. it was not a european style army that actually fought the war, the only fighting done by the spaniard conquistadores was the ambush on the Inca Emperor, highest officers and his 12 man bodyguard that were part of the envoy.
 

unmerged(76101)

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May 12, 2007
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FFS will the people ever stop posting about things that aren't logical AND are not in direct connection to Europe on this forum ??? Face it people: the game is called Europe Universalis III and devs only showed attention to European history, the rest of the world is just there for someone who wants to conquer it, or as someone nicely called it "a speed bump". From this game you can't expect anything from Asia, Africa, Americas or Australia exept accurately named provinces, capitols and names of the nations. My advice is to play European nation a couple of times, then start some good mod, and for heavens sake in most cases DON'T play non-European power because it is (in almost all cases) totally going to get on your nerves because almost nothing is as it should been. Ofc, you could try to edit the game, add events in effort to add some realism to it, but believe me it is a very hard and very, very long process :( .

Now, it looks like I will have to create a template post for all the stupidities people assume about native americans (and unfortunately there are tons of 'em), but until then I will have to settle on these short historical lectures (that will probably be discarded by the same ones posting stupidities because these kind of posts are too big for them to read it... but with some luck maybe one or two will read them and stop speaking nonsense).

Concerning Incas:
Their country WAS named Incan Empire (not because it sounds nicely or because it neetly rolls of the tongue, but because it was really an Empire with a real Emperor - son of the Sun, or God or both... very similar to Pharoahs -made of flash and blood... honestly!)... And as I posted on other topic, I will post again the same question: does anyone think that an Empire with millions and millions of subjects can be ruled by an TRIBAL CHIEF ? If you do think so... well I think its best for you that you keep it for your self.
Saying that Incas had inferior masonry or that they didn't have it at all is just like saying that 2+2 is 17... Incas not only knew about masonry, they were masters of it. Incan Masonry was one of the things Europeans NEVER EVER managed to come even near. If you go to most of the cities in todays Peru or Equador (spelling check?) or any of the S.American cities that were built on remains of Incan fortresses and cities, you will see architecture that is not older that 100 years most (with few exeptions ofc) that were built on or around ruins of Incan cities. The walls Inca built were meant to stay for a long long time. They could easily withstand an earthquake of 8 richter, they didn't have any sort of spacing between the stones used during construction (even now, after 500 years you cannot slip even a piece of paper between the spacing of the rocks used during building...), forcing an entrance in Incan wall using siege equipment is just plain madness. Also, Mayas and Aztecs also knew how to build walls, strongholds and fortresses, but they were nowhere near the Incan work (for that matter neither were Europeans).
Boblof explains some points of Incan demise nicely so it would be nice if (like there is that possibility) to read his post, it is shorter than this one and more easy to follow and understand.
As for Incan weapons, they used copper weapons, and yes, they really were sharp Aethis.
And as insolet1 pointed out (again something I'm trying to prove to people but they just don't follow), NA hugely underestimated the Europeans... really... big time...
The "unortodox" way Europeans managed sieges, insolet1 is talking about is actually 2 occasions when 1)Spaniards, with the help of the current Incan Emperor went to a ball where most of the high ranking members of royal court, generals, statesmen and generally most of the important people in the country were gathered together and slew them all (it was Incan tradition not to bring any kind of weapons to that kind of event, and doing so would be breaking one of the oldest law)... They were slaughtered like sheep, because they couldn't run away (Spaniards barred the huge doors and there was no way to exit the hall they were in). Other occasion where NA were doomed by their own fortifications was when Spaniards burned the roof of the fort and all of the people inside suffocated or died in fire (if I remember correctly - probably not the case - it was during the final siege of Mexico City).
 

insolent1

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Boblof said:
the Incan fortifications were comparable or even sometimes better than European counterparts, have you seen pictures of Machu pitchu? I doubt that the spaniards used such innovative new methods that the incans didn't stand a chance, hell the british had great diffuculty breaking thru Maori fortifications in the 19th century and thoose were not even made of stone (although the maoris had muskets).
and as far as I know the Inca did not attack while the emperor was a hostage of pizzarro.
besides you have to see that the spanish "army" that conquored was originally only 200 men. when Atahualpa was killed pizzarro amassed a native army to take the rest of the land just like Cortez. it was not a european style army that actually fought the war, the only fighting done by the spaniard conquistadores was the ambush on the Inca Emperor, highest officers and his 12 man bodyguard that were part of the envoy.

The Maori forts where brilliant indeed & they used the leaf of a plant(can't remember name) that was very good at absorbing the shock from the artillery that was used. But the Maori had GUNS which was a massive factor & the english colonial tatics where somewhat lacking in a lot of those sieges.
Machu Pitchu is very impressive, I have not been there but seen a lot of footage. But it was not built to withstand attacks from european weaponary which after the hassle of getting it up there would have slowly reduced areas of it to rubble. I know artillery was not very effective in the 1500's but it was still capable of leveling much stronger built fortifications. The spainish had just finished the reconquista where the had encountered much more formiddable fortress's than any the Inca had. The tales of Incan gold was too much of a lure & would have brought sizeable armies with plenty of equipment even if Pizzaro gambit failed. There is also the religious fervour of the times which was very powerful & i'm sure the Pope would have sanctioned some sort of crusade against them once he found out about the gold.
 

Frogbeard

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FreeeLancer said:
Their country WAS named Incan Empire

Good to know the Incas spoke English! :D
 

Boblof

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insolent1 said:
The Maori forts where brilliant indeed & they used the leaf of a plant(can't remember name) that was very good at absorbing the shock from the artillery that was used. But the Maori had GUNS which was a massive factor & the english colonial tatics where somewhat lacking in a lot of those sieges.
Machu Pitchu is very impressive, I have not been there but seen a lot of footage. But it was not built to withstand attacks from european weaponary which after the hassle of getting it up there would have slowly reduced areas of it to rubble. I know artillery was not very effective in the 1500's but it was still capable of leveling much stronger built fortifications. The spainish had just finished the reconquista where the had encountered much more formiddable fortress's than any the Inca had. The tales of Incan gold was too much of a lure & would have brought sizeable armies with plenty of equipment even if Pizzaro gambit failed. There is also the religious fervour of the times which was very powerful & i'm sure the Pope would have sanctioned some sort of crusade against them once he found out about the gold.
thing is that the spaniards didn't have any sort of artillery at all during the conquest, imagine the hassle of bringing several 300kg cannons (and thats a small one hardly able to take out a fortification stronger than a wooden pallisade) + ammo thru the colombian jungles (this was again a small expedition of just 200 men). hell they didn't even have firearms but relied on crossbows since the gunpowder got wet in the humid climate (again they were walking around in the colombian and venezuelan jungles). And as I said the soldiers that did the actual job of bringing down the Incan empire were thousands of natives without firearms cuz don't believe for a second that the spaniards brought 80 000 guns thru the jungle from the mexican gulf to arm a ragtag army of hethens.
the only reason that the spaniards managed to take out the Inca empire IRL (that early atlest, at later dates we can talk about military superiority) was because they by the execution of the emperor threw the empire into anarchy.
and I don't think that the religious fervor would have done much to bring people there, Mali was much closer to home and a much lesser empire, yet they wern't conquored until the invention of the machinegun.
 

unmerged(76687)

Second Lieutenant
May 20, 2007
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Again with the "stone age" NA?! OMG!!! :rolleyes:
Did any of the people making statements like "Incan forts couldn't withstand European weaponry" actualy seen location of the forts or the size of them and quality of the masonry?
Incan skill with stone was superior to European by far. I can't imagine "much harder fortifications".
Just put into google: "Inca forts" and look at the pictures.
As far as other NA nations are concerned, Cherokee had some serious fortifications, too. Though in their case made of wood.
Now, would someone care to explain me why would anyone stop using an obsidian blade against an unarmoured opponent? It's sharper than any steel blade and cannot be dulled.
My original post on this topic regarded lack of proper start setting for Inca Empire. And I would like to hear if Inca Empire wasn't an Empire by its goverment type than what was it? Union of daises, perhaps?! :wacko:
NI are also set all wrong, and, yes, I know that the player chooses the NI as he/she sees fit, but I was reffering to the AI. I mean Deus Vult and Divine Supremacy :rofl: Exactly when and where did Incas send misionaries?!

Good to know the Incas spoke English!
It was named, as in named by others... :p

Well, it seems obvious that there isn't any patch for fixing the problem, so I'll have to change the files myself.
I'm very reluctant to do so because of the respect for the effort and time that developers put into this game, but...

I actualy don't understand why are Denmark and Belgia in European Union, I mean they are "stone age savages" surely. Just 60 years ago Germans overrun them in just few days, so they must be living in stone age, right?
(I do apologise if anyone was offended by this. I was making a point, not meaning that seriously.)
 
May 23, 2006
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caliburn said:
I actualy don't understand why are Denmark and Belgia in European Union, I mean they are "stone age savages" surely. Just 60 years ago Germans overrun them in just few days, so they must be living in stone age, right?
(I do apologise if anyone was offended by this. I was making a point, not meaning that seriously.)
Well thats offtopic, but I assume you know that the german campaign against france and its western allies in 1940 was not guaranteed to succeed. Hell it was an even larger gamble than the spaniards' attack against the native american countries. That is the reason that if you play HoI then Belgium and Denmark usually wont slow/stop the german attack. Not that IRL they could not, but because HoI is based on what happened in the ww2 the devs decided to set the scenario and the possible outcomes as close to the actual happenings as possible (well at least in early game). Thats why the Incas and other native american countries have those penalties, to simulate history (or at least give that outcome a higher chance), just like why in vanilla HoI france has a lot lower IC/worse tech teams (overall lower war potential) than IRL had.