inaccurate graphics

[Birger]

I e-mailad Ilya (again), about the Astrakhan and Sibir arms:
Should we use the crown and sabre arms or the one with a wolf in for Astrakhan?


Sorry, I have no information about symbols of these regions in 15th century.

In 16th century there were two variants of Astrakhan emblem:

1) wolf in crown (on the State Seal of tsar Ivan IV, 1570th);
2) crown and sabre under it.

Second variant became the modern symbol of Astrakhan.

-------------------------

The situation with Siberia emblem is more difficult. In 15th century on the territory of Siberia there was a lot of different khanates, uluses, etc. I have no information about these Turkic states and their symbols.

Russians began to conquer this region only in the second half of 16th century. The addition to the tsar's title - "... Tsar of Siberia..." - appeared in 1620th. The symbol of Siberia, created in this period, had the description: "Tree (Siberian pine), and two sables under it, standing on hind legs".

 

[Birger]

Here's some info I found regarding the Grenada flag:

The last African flag of Grenada consisted of heraldic "Argent, a pomegranate gules leafed vert" (ie., an all-white flag, with a centred red pomegranate flower with green petals). It is unclear what the symbolic significance of the pomegranate bloom was to blacks in Spain. What is notable, however, is that Granada gave its name to the fruit...

Found here

 

[Birger]

Originally posted by Iostephanos


yep, i'm 95% percent sure (i figure out 5% because i'm due to make a mistake )

i'm secretly wondering if the original arms weren't just the auroch and star, but that has more bearing on later ck than early eu, since i haven't seen anything in print or on the web that implies that all three symbols weren't present in the middle and late periods as you have them there. (i see you had the same problem i did, when making the cinquefoil (sp? ) silver it doesn't look as much like one as when gold... stupid graphics! ah!)

...

steph

It seems that we were wrong about Moldavia...

Quote from http://www.bnm.org/english/03teza/100_alex_c_bun.html

Reverse: The effigy of Alexandru cel Bun is placed in the central part. The years of reign "1400-1432" are engraved in the left part. The images of the Coat of Arms of Moldova of XVth century and the wording "ALEXANDRU CEL BUN" are placed in the right part following the coin circumference.

I'm not sure about the colors, but I think that this would be fairly accurate.

 

[unmerged(8523)]

Originally posted by Birger Jarl
Here's some info I found regarding the Grenada flag:

The last African flag of Grenada consisted of heraldic "Argent, a pomegranate gules leafed vert" (ie., an all-white flag, with a centred red pomegranate flower with green petals). It is unclear what the symbolic significance of the pomegranate bloom was to blacks in Spain. What is notable, however, is that Granada gave its name to the fruit...

Found here

here's a quote from the same site:

The last free blacks in Spain were expelled on April 6, 1609

if the flag were used by them, then it may be to late in time for it to be considered the kingdom's flag; this site doesn't seem to distinguish between granada's flag and "the last african flag of granada", which may be also taken to mean the last flag used by (any) blacks in granada...

we'll have to double check with mkj, as i can't find his source on the net, i forget what he called the name of granada's flag

by the way, this -

What is notable, however, is that Granada gave its name to the fruit, as well as to the Hand Grenade which came into use in the 15th century

is bull; the english term "pomegranate" comes from the middle french pomme grenate (seedy apple); the fruit was commonly known in french as grenate, and it was this word that named the grenade

(both the middle french grenate and the name granada derive from the latin granatus, "seedy")

steph

 

[unmerged(8523)]

Originally posted by Birger Jarl


I'm not sure about the colors, but I think that this would be fairly accurate.

how was i wrong? i never changed mine

(besides i was talking about ck time, not eu - the romanian principalities emerged in the 1300's)

anyway, the colors are as i gave them before: black auroch, gold star, silver cinquefoil and moon

steph

 

[Birger]

Originally posted by Iostephanos


how was i wrong? i never changed mine

(besides i was talking about ck time, not eu - the romanian principalities emerged in the 1300's)

anyway, the colors are as i gave them before: black auroch, gold star, silver cinquefoil and moon

steph

are you sure?

 

[unmerged(8523)]

i guess i was vague; what i meant when i said that i was secretly wondering if it were just a bull and star i meant from the 1300's sometime...

i'm secretly wondering if the original arms weren't just the auroch and star, but that has more bearing on later ck than early eu, since i haven't seen anything in print or on the web that implies that all three symbols weren't present in the middle and late periods as you have them there.

...meaning that as far as i could tell for the eu timeframe all three symbols were present

in the original coat of arms for romania, the all the elements in moldavia's quarter were colored gold; the later augmented arms have the auroch black, the star gold, and the cinquefoil (or rose) and half-moon silver - the romanian websites explaining the coat of arms gave the modern colors as the "traditional" ones (that could always bear more double checking, but that's where i'm at now)

steph

 

[Birger]

Before I release version 1.1 of GUFSM I need some help of you guys. (Don't wanna be the GUFSM dictator here... )

1. Bremen - should we use the arms of the city or the arms of the archbishopric?

EDIT: My vote goes to the archbihopric since we're using the arms of other german archbishoprics and duchys instead of cities.

Archbishopric of Bremen

City of Bremen

2. Holstein - should we use the arms of Holstein or the civil ensign of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp??

Holstein

Schleswig-Holstein
EDIT: Or any other combined arms of Schleswig-Holstein


Let me know what you think!
Thanx in advance.

 

[Birger]

3. HRE - should we use a singleheaded or a doubleheaded eagle for the eimpire?

Ok, I know, the second shield look like crap! Haven't found a good enough pic yet.

 

[Birger]

What about Cyprus and Armenia? See the marks in bold.

Info found here

The Coat - of – Arms
On the east side of the castle there’s a large marble panel in the shape of a large cross. In the center of the panel, in the shape of a shield, there is a large badge, which is divided into 4 quarters and shows the complete coat-of-arms of the Lusignans of Cyprus.

The first quarter: Portrays the emblem of Jerusalem, which depicts a large cross between four smaller crosses.

The second quarter: Shows the old coat-of-arms of the Lusignans and portrays an upstanding lion on 3 bars.

The third quarter: Depicts the emblem of Cyprus and shows a red up-standing lion on a golden field.

The fourth quarter: Bears the emblem of Armenia and has a red upstanding lion in a silver field.

The four quarters make up a unity because since 1393 the King of Cyprus, from Jacob I, was also the King of Jerusalem and Armenia.

 

[Havard]

Note that the "Armenia" in the Lusignan CoA is the Lesser Armenia aka Cilicia, and has nothing to do with the "real" Armenia...

 

[Birger]

Originally posted by Havard
Note that the "Armenia" in the Lusignan CoA is the Lesser Armenia aka Cilicia, and has nothing to do with the "real" Armenia...

Great, just wanted to sort things out.

 

[unmerged(8523)]

Originally posted by Birger Jarl
What about Cyprus and Armenia? See the marks in bold.

Info found here

The Coat - of – Arms
On the east side of the castle there’s a large marble panel in the shape of a large cross. In the center of the panel, in the shape of a shield, there is a large badge, which is divided into 4 quarters and shows the complete coat-of-arms of the Lusignans of Cyprus.

The first quarter: Portrays the emblem of Jerusalem, which depicts a large cross between four smaller crosses.

The second quarter: Shows the old coat-of-arms of the Lusignans and portrays an upstanding lion on 3 bars.

The third quarter: Depicts the emblem of Cyprus and shows a red up-standing lion on a golden field.

The fourth quarter: Bears the emblem of Armenia and has a red upstanding lion in a silver field.

The four quarters make up a unity because since 1393 the King of Cyprus, from Jacob I, was also the King of Jerusalem and Armenia.

there's nothing wrong with the cyprus and (lesser) armenia you have already done - it's the website; they have armenia (gold) and cyprus (silver) reversed - armenia is the 3rd, and the cyprus the 4th quarter:

kingdom of cyprus

from arms of european families:
Arménie ( royaume ). De gueules à trois rencontres de daim d'argent, ramés d'or; alias d'or au lion de gueules, armé, couronné d'or et lampassé d'azur.

from heraldica.org; excerpt from the venetian grand arms:
In chief, Cyprus, which is quarterly Argent a cross potent between four crosslets or (Jerusalem), barry of 8 argent and azure a lion gules armed and crowned or (Lusignan), or a lion gules (Armenia) and argent a lion gules (Luxemburg).
(note how the quarter for cyprus is mis-labelled as "luxemburg" in some texts - luxemburg's arms had stripes by this time - compare the above "kingdom of cyprus")

steph

 

[Brickie]

1.08 patch flags

I've just implemented the v1.08 patch but some of the flags seem to be a bit out. The most glaring example to me was Scotland (where did the red field for half of the flag come from?), but there were others I wanted to set back to the original EU2 flags - to wit:

1. Papal States (red with cross keys looks too much like Bremen)
2. Burgundy (don't like the new "squashed" cross)
3. Algiers (identical to Afghanistan)
4. Münster (old one was more accurate AFAIK)
5. Serbia (as above)
6. Genoa (new one is identical to England)
7. Spain (identical to Burgundy)
8. Morocco (I connect the old "Fez" colours with Morocco)

So I copied some of the old flags across from by backup and lo and behold the colours don't display properly.

Any ideas why? Or, alternatively, can anyone point me at somewhere I might be able to get the old flags in a format that suits the new patch?

 

[Birger]

Scotland:
1180: The oldest extant record of the St. Andrews cross flag is on a seal in St. Andrews, where it is used as a religious, not a national, emblem
1286: the St. Andrews cross was first known to be a national emblem of Scotland (the seal of the guardians of Scotland).
1385: every Scots soldier used a saltire on his uniform (often used on black, not blue - the background colour seems to have been of less importance)
1388: the Standard of the Earl of Douglas used a St. Andrews cross and a lion
1503: the first certain use of a plain St. Andrew's Cross flag - but the field was red, not blue (the Vienna Book of Hours).
Source: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-scotl.html#ori

The flag in 1.08 is based on the Scottish flag seen on this pic:

See this thread for more info: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105672

1.
The flags aren't that similar, the Papal States has yellow keys with a blue ribbon, the Bremen are two white keys...

2.
What do you mean about squashed cross? the flag looked like that.

3.
Eh, almost...

Afganistan

Algiers

4.
Not at all, the previous flag were based on the city of Münster, but if that's what you wish you can make a request in the GRT.
The one in 1.08 is based on the archbishopric of Münster.

5.
No no, the flag was a red double headed eagle on white, the Nemanjic arms in reversed colors.
The Nemanjics family, (http://www.medieval-serbia.com/eng/families-nemanjics.htm).
Two headed eagle was adopted from the Byzantine heritage and soon it became the symbol of Serbian kings as well of the Serbian state. This symbol can be seen on a Catalonian map from 1339 and it represented the capital of Serbian Empire under Dusan. White royal eagle of the House of Nemanjics can be seen on fresco in Ljeviska monastery.

6.
The Republic used in land after 1218 an white flag with red Saint George cross, later also used as ensign since 1238. This flag was in use until 1805.
http://flagspot.net/flags/it-genoa.html

7.
When Spain comes around Burgundy should be out of the picture.
http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/spflag.htm

8.
White flags (9th to 17th cent.) http://flagspot.net/flags/ma_hist.html
The use of the flag in Morocco as a symbol of the state dates way back to the Almoravide dynasty (1062-1125 AD). Prior to this time, white silk banners were often carried in battle, sometimes with Koranic inscriptions written on them. The Almoravides institutionalized this practice. They gave one banner to every unit of 100 soldiers; the leaders always carried one inscribed: «There is no god but god, and Mohammad is His Prophet». The two following dynasties (the Merinides and the Saadiens) continued the use of the White flag as the symbol of the State.

 

[Brickie]

I stand corrected on historical accuracy. (and indeed had no intention of impugning a fine work)

I guess they just "look wrong" to me

I didn't want to post in the Grand Request Thread in case either they already exist somewhere or there's a simple way to make the flags from the original EU2 set work with v1.08...

 

[Birger]

Sorry, put down too much info that I forgot to say something myself... o

To my knowledge the flags you want haven't been made, just post your requests in the GRT. There's plenty of people (read Kaigon) that will help out.

Since you're using 1.08 I guess you want the flags in 8 bits otherwise they will shine through the fog of war.

 

[jpd]

So I copied some of the old flags across from by backup and lo and behold the colours don't display properly.

Any ideas why? Or, alternatively, can anyone point me at somewhere I might be able to get the old flags in a format that suits the new patch?

Yup. Found that out myself, when I replaced the incorrect new HOL flag with the correct one that was in use prior to v1.08.

With the transition to the new flags, a new 256 color palette was also introduced. Normally, that would not have been a problem, as each 256 color .BMP file carries it's own color palette with the correct RGB values inside it. Unfortunately, the EU2 engine ignores this for flags (not for shields, oddly enough), and has the new color palette hardcoded inside.

So, each color index value of the old .BMP file gets interpreted with the new color palette, and so colors show up incorrectly.

The solution, of course, is to convert the pixel index values in the .BMP file to the closest match available in the new color palette. I have done that for the old HOL flag, and now it shows up again as it should

Jan Peter

 

[Brickie]

The solution, of course, is to convert the pixel index values in the .BMP file to the closest match available in the new color palette. I have done that for the old HOL flag, and now it shows up again as it should

Jan Peter

So how would I do that?

 

[jpd]

A good graphics program should be able to handle that. Unfortunately, all I had to work with were simple apps like Paint. So I took out my C++ Builder, dug up my 13 year old Win 3.0/3.1 developers manuals that document the layout of a .BMP file, and wrote a little program that does just that, convert the pixel index values from one palette to another, using a closest match algoritm on the full RGB values in the palette.

Jan Peter