• Crusader Kings II Expansion Subscription

    Subscribe to the CK II Expansion and enjoy unlimited access to 13 major expansions and more!


  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

unmerged(8523)

zzzz... zzzz...
Apr 2, 2002
895
0
graphic encyclopedia for ck and eu

i wanted to have a place where we can point out mistakes in the graphics of some of the websites that we draw images from. hopefully, it can be an "everyone looking out for everyone" type of thing.

so far, i only have one for certain:

byz_fok.gif


this is the image that flags of the world has for the tentative standard of nikephoras phocas, dated around 963. (i said tentative because no one is really sure about how these were used, or how accurate they are; they're reconstructions.) you'll notice that it has only two diagonal rays extending from the top inside corners of the cross. it's wrong because the "diagonal rays" are really part of the letter chi, and together with the letter rho, it forms the christogram.

here's a picture inside the naval museum in crete, showing two of the flags the images on flags of the world were based on:

lk04d002.jpg


the real "flag" in question is on the top left, and you can see that the "diagonal rays" should extend from all four inside corners.

steph
 
Last edited:

Languish

Fighting the Boredom
Apr 17, 2002
3.588
0
www.twitter.com
Finding any historical flags, or even battle standards is proving to be a bugger. You might want to try the angle i am searching... that of coinage. There might be a slim chance a correct symbol could be shown.

For example this page here shows some of the coins around the time of his reign. Even though they do not contain any specific imagery its worth considering.

Anyhow, im still looking.
 

unmerged(8523)

zzzz... zzzz...
Apr 2, 2002
895
0
coinage is sometimes a good way to go; it's kind of helpful for the crusader states.

for byzantium though, you're likely to find one of four things: the christogram, someone holding the labarum, a christ, or a personal symbol of some sort (that i've noticed so far).

as far as finding good images being a bugger, i agree with you. it's just that tracking down some of this stuff to begin with takes time, and i wouldn't want someone with a genuine interest in this sort of thing to spend all day to find an image that's somehow incomplete or wrong. i guess we'll never know for sure; time will probably tell some of the images i think are correct aren't. i think i really wanted some kind of research depot for everyone where we could all share, since we all know a little something :)
 

Mad King James

Buzzkill Extraordinaire
61 Badges
Jan 18, 2002
7.148
300
40
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
I had the same idea actually :) I'm making source flags, maybe we should start a site exclusively for midaeval flags?
 

unmerged(8523)

zzzz... zzzz...
Apr 2, 2002
895
0
i think he means both; a visual encyclopedia, if you will, so that future mods to both eu and ck as well as the gusfm would have a handy reference :)

i knew i could count on him to take this in a good direction :)
 

Birger

Not really here...
6 Badges
Sep 21, 2001
3.993
0
www.wappenwiki.org
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
When looking for info about duchy of Athens arms I stumbled a cross this:

History of the Maltese cross

As to the early written descriptions of an eight pointed cross, these could include Cross Moline, Cross Ancrée, Formée Pattée, a stylised Cross Formée or Cross Pattée, or Cross Branchée/ Fichée. Such versions of the cross were depicted in use by the Order prior to the sixteenth Century. In surveying the evidence of the forms of crosses used by the Order in Rhodes and in the early period at Malta, we must take note that the designs to be found on the Order's coinage were not exclusive to the Order, and that such crosses are to be found on the coins of other Crusader states. For example a Christian Arabic dinar or bezant of Acre 1257, which from the cross portrayed, could be argued as a Maltese Cross coin! The image seems to be a combination of a Cross Formée and a Cross Moline, but are almost identical to that on the gigliats of Helion de Villeneuvre, a Grand Master of Rhodes 1319-1346. Similar designs are to be found on Coinage from the Principality of Antioch, Lordship of Sidon, Cilician Armenia, Duchy of Athens, Lordship of Chios (a striking example is that of a quarter-gigliato prior to 1466).

Don't really know if it's anything, maybe you know Steph? :)
 

Languish

Fighting the Boredom
Apr 17, 2002
3.588
0
www.twitter.com
Originally posted by stephanos
i think he means both; a visual encyclopedia, if you will, so that future mods to both eu and ck as well as the gusfm would have a handy reference :)

i knew i could count on him to take this in a good direction :)

Ah yes... i hadnt thought of the era that CK covers. The great thing about this era is that, mid to late, it covers the really classic and formative period of heraldry.
 

Languish

Fighting the Boredom
Apr 17, 2002
3.588
0
www.twitter.com
In addition to coins i have also been checking out seals of the type that were used in sending parchments, letters and the like to important people.

Seals nearly always contained the blazon, if not always.

Again another angle to investigate in looking for correct imagery.
 

Mad King James

Buzzkill Extraordinaire
61 Badges
Jan 18, 2002
7.148
300
40
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
I've got a week off coming up, I'll do it then ;)
 

unmerged(8523)

zzzz... zzzz...
Apr 2, 2002
895
0
interesting...

it looks like you are more correct in your analysis than i - check out this page on france

so, in addition to personal seals, there are also counterseals? were they always used in pairs?

steph
 

unmerged(8523)

zzzz... zzzz...
Apr 2, 2002
895
0
Originally posted by Birger Jarl
When looking for info about duchy of Athens arms I stumbled across this:

History of the Maltese cross

Don't really know if it's anything, maybe you know Steph? :)

i wish i could say for sure birger, i'm somewhat familiar with some byzantine coins, beyond that i don't know. (...and i thought i knew something about seals :))

my whole case for the la roche arms being those of the duchy rests on the entries in blasons des familles d'europe, which deals primarily in families, but has those of a few states - and lists the arms thus:

when looking up "athens" - Athènes. (Voyez la Roche d'Athènes).
so i looked up the la roche family and got their arms. the families of brienne and acciajuoli aren't cross-referenced here; they're just listed under their family names as brienne of athens and acciajuoli in tuscany and in greece (as opposed to another acciajuoli that was just listed as being in tuscany).

that's my whole case. the site doesn't list what folio it took the arms from, and even if it did, i wouldn't know a trustworthy one from otherwise. what i like about heraldique europeenne is that the folios are listed, but so far i haven't found them online, and the webmaster has yet to do any crusader states save the kingdom of jerusalem and the kingdom of cyprus. i've e-mailed him to see if he already knows, but so far no response.

i mean i even tried greek terms as well as french, but the greek sites only displayed some history, not any descriptions of arms. i'm hoping angelos will see this and post a description of what he saw pertaining to athens, if anything, since he has an offline source that displayed the flag of achaia that may also be its arms.

the only thing i found in my book catalan domination of athens 1311-1388 was that the catalan company used a portrait of saint george in their seals, along with the motto of "fortunate army of franks in romania".

when i brought up coins as being possible sources, i was referring to this page of heraldica.org. an excerpt:

Numismatic evidence

The best work is Gustave Schlumberger's Numismatique de l'Orient Latin (Paris, 1878; reprint Graz 1954). In a coin auction catalogue I recently received, coins from Tripoli feature:

Obverse: horse with cross above, Reverse: a cross between four roundels (bronze, Raymond II 1137-52)
Obv: cross patty, Rev: eight-point star (Bohemond VI, 1251-75, silver gros)
Obv: cross slightly patty, Rev: three-towered castle (Bohemond VII, 1275-87, silver gros)
I believe the 8-pt star was a recurrent motif on Tripoli coins.

Coins of Antioch feature:

Raymond Roupen (1216-19): helmeted head between crescent and 5-pt star, Rev: cross patty with crescent in one quarter. (coins from early 12th c. have a bust of St Peter and inscriptions, or the Mother of God facing nimbate).

Interestingly, coins from Cyprus (1306-1473) constantly feature on the reverse a cross potent between four crosses, never crosslets but sometimes patty or formy. But what is peculiar is that the main cross is "quadrat in the centre", that is, its center is thickened by a square. This is, according to Parker's Glossary, called a cross of S. Chad, because it features in the arms of the see of Lichfield and Coventry, of which S. Chad was the first bishop. The quadrating on the Cyprus coins is much less pronounced than in the drawing in Parker, but this is nevertheless quite intriguing.


i don't know the proper conclusion to be drawn from this - we know (i think we know) that in some cases, like jerusalem, that the image can be said to be that of the state; but in cyprus, the reverse is true. fate has taken the eight pointed star as being the arms of tripoli. he's also taken a variation on the image on the coins of antioch (the cross with a crescent) as being the arms of antioch itself, while lp2le_retour found these:

Antioch: Gules, three trumpets palewise or

according to the glossary of heraldic terms, the cross maltese was used by religious orders because the eight points were supposed to represent the eight beatitudes. the hospitallers held various parts of the morea from 1377 to 1404, and they held nearby islands not shown in the game - i was going to suggest that as a possible reason for the symbol being so widespread, but if the cross maltese didn't appear as we know it until about 1500, then it pokes a hole in that theory.

steph
 

Languish

Fighting the Boredom
Apr 17, 2002
3.588
0
www.twitter.com
Re: interesting...

Originally posted by stephanos
it looks like you are more correct in your analysis than i - check out this page on france

so, in addition to personal seals, there are also counterseals? were they always used in pairs?

steph

Thanks ;)

As for the pairs... no not always... i found a lot of thirteenth and fourteenth century rolls and manuscripts all with seals, and most baring a copy of the arms of the sender embossed within the seal.

However, i noticed the seals were often a simplified version of the original arms. Not much, but if we only had a seal, it would make the reuslting shield somewhat inaccurate. Unless of course we had a heraldric description to go by.
 

unmerged(8523)

zzzz... zzzz...
Apr 2, 2002
895
0
this page is all that came out of a german search using "herzogtum" and "athen"

coins of achaia, athens, and antioch

if that's correct, then both the principality of achaia and the duchy of athens used the same images on some of their coins... maybe there's a separate set of rules for what goes on a coin?

steph
 

Languish

Fighting the Boredom
Apr 17, 2002
3.588
0
www.twitter.com
A little detail on;

Counter Seals

The true object of a reverse seal is to guard against its falsification. In former times, to accomplish this, a "counter-seal" was used. The custody of the two seal's were then given to two different guardians. Usually, the reverse seal was used only on documents of the highest importance.

So yes they were used, in pairs, but not always.
 

Languish

Fighting the Boredom
Apr 17, 2002
3.588
0
www.twitter.com
To give you a visual idea of the similarities between seals, counter seals, and their coats of arms.

John de Warenne ~ 7th Earl of Surrey

(My home county)

John de Warenne, born c. 1231, died September, 1304 at Kennington, was the son and heir of the 6th Earl, William de Warenne, and succeeded upon his father's death in 1240. He married Alice de Lusignan, half sister of Henry III

His seal, and counter seal is shown here;

exampleseals.gif


Compared with a copy of his coat of arms (checky or and azure) here;

examplecoat.gif


You can see the obvious use of heraldry here... and this is the idea i am getting across. I dont know if the byzantines ever had many seals, but as they became gradually more influenced by the west (as they did taking up heraldry and tournaments) its possible this may be an avenue.

Either way this information is relevant in terms of our plans (MKJ) to head into medieval heraldry something i am slowly learning alot about.
 

unmerged(8523)

zzzz... zzzz...
Apr 2, 2002
895
0
Originally posted by Languish
To give you a visual idea of the similarities between seals, counter seals, and their coats of arms...

You can see the obvious use of heraldry here... and this is the idea i am getting across. I dont know if the byzantines ever had many seals, but as they became gradually more influenced by the west (as they did taking up heraldry and tournaments) its possible this may be an avenue...

thanks, i appreciate that and i can see what you mean.

i have only two things to add: according to heraldica.org, the byzantines used religious images on their seals and that most have been interpreted as personal, while various associated arms have been interpreted as familial. i wish i could give a more in depth analysis than that, but the webmaster hasn't yet e-mailed me in response to certain misgivings i had about some other information on that page.

second, the image you posted shows an indisputable link to some seals and the corresponding arms of the person in question - do you have any way to tell if this was the norm or not in the west? is this what you meant about the arms being "simplified"? (due to the number of panes not being the same...? i learned while talking to the webmaster of flags and arms of the modern era that unless a number is specifically given, chequy can mean any number of panes; consider croatia - in the eu timeframe it can 3x3, 3x4, 4x4, 4x5, 5x5, etc. up to 8x8 or so with either color in the top left :))

...or is there an example of arms being (grossly) simplified?

stephanos
 

unmerged(7398)

Lt. General
Jan 21, 2002
1.613
0
mozart.atpnet.com
Originally posted by stephanos
unless a number is specifically given, chequy can mean any number of panes; consider croatia - in the eu timeframe it can 3x3, 3x4, 4x4, 4x5, 5x5, etc. up to 8x8 or so with either color in the top left :)
While Croatia's arms may indeed have had both, the language used is quite precise as to which color is placed in the upper left - always the first. ("Chequy of argent and gules" says nothing about how many checks, but white is always in the honor point.)