In the name of balance and equal opportunity

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For the record, here's the difference between randomized games and non-randomized games in a nutshell, from someone who has played a good few: Nothing.

Eh, we are not primarily talking about randomness but of equality from start and skill during the game. Randomness is just a part of that subject.

But still since it is a part I would like to know what you mean by a "non-randomised" game. Please explain how it was set up. We might benefit from your description.

 

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Huh, Aladar also talks about more random events .

Try to spot the difference between his proposal and mine

When you have succeeded you will realise mine has less to do with ordinary random events, but more with creating an useful system to 'buy' random leaders. Getting just random leaders isn't tied to skill at all, afterall.
While with the random event I talked about you get some skill involved with getting random leaders. You have to choose between getting victory points and a penalty, or not doing so.

 

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That you can write this after I just told Arco 2-3 times in a row that we had an auction to counter any still existing deficiencies is mindboggling.

Don't worry, I spotted your auction proposal. However, what *is* mindboggling is that you don't realise the flaw in your theory.

An auction does not solve having a worse geographical position (tied to different manpower, tax, culture etc. provinces) in the game than your fellow players for 400 years.

[...]we aim at creating a scenario were all contestants at start will believe that they have just about an equal chance as anyone else to become the mightiest nation on the map.

Agreed. And I believe my proposed mod does exactly that, as opposed to your proposal.

But they only force us to install a complementary event file, like in Chill4. Much more easy than a complete MOD.

It is wrong to give the advantage of a less good solution, simply because a mod would be involved. We play with mods all the time here. See the various games that use AoD now, see Throne of Heaven in the past. There are only minor problems tied with it when you get a quick sub, while the advantages are enormously if you want to reach your goal.

 

[Aladar]

Well Daniel perhaps we should lower tradeincome by 50% to make you more interested in the other parts of the game rather than just trade too

Anyway - i like a lot of the ideas we are comming up with here, like the european culture. That would really set a new stardard for where your borders are, and what you are interested in conquering.

 

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Try to spot the difference between his proposal and mine

When you have succeeded you will realise mine has less to do with ordinary random events, but more with creating an useful system to 'buy' random leaders. Getting just random leaders isn't tied to skill at all, afterall.
While with the random event I talked about you get some skill involved with getting random leaders. You have to choose between getting victory points and a penalty, or not doing so.

Eh yes, it sounds as if the basis for the leaders was the VPs given to you by random events. So, still quite random. But of course, the buying element is not random.

Basically you are right, the random leaders does add randomness. There are several alternatives,

1. get rid of random leaders as well as the historic

2. have a possibility to buy leaders (the question is for what, randomised VPs sounds strange to my ears; to buy for ducats tends to favour those already rich)

3. to accept random leaders (because they are fun )

To accept historical leaders is of course entirely out of the question.

Regarding explorers/conqs I already suggested that each player has a couple of them in the bank and could claim them anytime he wanted to (secretly). Perhaps we could do similar with generals/admirals. Thus

4. Each nation has a predefined limited set of leaders that can be selected to be put in action during any upcoming session

5. Each nation has an eternal general and admiral, say 4-4-4, that is resurrected from death should he die during a session

 

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Don't worry, I spotted your auction proposal. However, what *is* mindboggling is that you don't realise the flaw in your theory.

An auction does not solve having a worse geographical position (tied to different manpower, tax, culture etc. provinces) in the game than your fellow players for 400 years.

This statement of yours does not become true merely because you say so. Please refrain from presenting this kind of "arguments". Always present facts + logical conclusions from them. Not merely the conclusion itself.

 

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2. have a possibility to buy leaders (the question is for what, randomised VPs sounds strange to my ears; to buy for ducats tends to favour those already rich)

Well, the entire random file could exists out of events giving you victory points in return for a penalty, or other options.
Take for example this one:

event = {
	id = 20004
	random = yes
	name = "Slighted by Noble"
	desc = "One of your nobles slight you. While intolerable, the insult is not quite bad enough to justify killing the man and enslaving his wife and children. How will you deal with him"
	action_a = {
		name = "Leniently: Impoverish Him"
		command = { type = cash value = 50 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "Harshly: Confiscate his land"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = cash value = 50 }
		command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = 1 }
	}
	action_c = {
		name = "I'll Kill & Enslave anyhow"
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = cash value = 200 }
		command = { type = provincetax which = -3 value = 1 }
		command = { type = vp value = -1 }
	}
}

Skill is involved here to make the right choice. If a leader would cost 5 VP's (for example) you have to take many negative event options before you get it.
If all random events are like this one, you can gather a leader each 5 years, with various penalties tied to it.

 

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Agreed. And I believe my proposed mod does exactly that, as opposed to your proposal.

You may believe anything you want as long as you keep it for yourself. But if you put it into a discussion and portray it as closer to the "truth" than my view, then substantiate your claim.

 

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This statement of yours does not become true merely because you say so. Please refrain from presenting this kind of "arguments". Always present facts + logical conclusions from them. Not merely the conclusion itself.

Fair enough, I thought you would spot it yourself, but here goes:

If I am France (assuming paradox setup here for now) and you the Dutch, no auction can prevent me from annexing you.

The only thing to give us both a fair position is by using a mod. An auction can't solve geographica disadvantages.

 

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I've been following this discussion with much interest. May I make some suggestions.

1: random events: pain in the ass, but makes game more interesting. I would however delete ALL good events and some bad events (10 stab hits in 10 years is IMO just too much).

2: monarchs/leaders: everybody recieves leaders (monarchs/explorers/conquistadores/...) with the same stats and the same duration. But stats and duration must be in a random order and not 40 years each as DA proposed)

3: everybody recieves a CoT in their capital

4: the better the player, the worse the location. For example, DA is a good player when it comes to trade; he should be given an awfull location.

5: dp sliders are ALL fixed. They may not be changed by the player even if some event changes them.

6: everybody has same religion + tech (also all latin, although it would be fun/challenging/more fair to give everybody Pagan religion and tech. But some people, like traders, would most likely not want this)

7: can't come up with anything yet, but give me some time

 

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It is wrong to give the advantage of a less good solution, simply because a mod would be involved. We play with mods all the time here. See the various games that use AoD now, see Throne of Heaven in the past. There are only minor problems tied with it when you get a quick sub, while the advantages are enormously if you want to reach your goal.

You are generalising too much.

In each case where you decide to introduce a mod you must realise there is a price to pay. And then you compare the pro's and con's. It is not so as you say

"It is wrong to give the advantage of a less good solution, simply because a mod would be involved. "

the truth is that whether to give that advantage depends on how much you gain from introducing it compare to how much you lose.

But when I think more about, where is the province culture stored? Is it in a db file, or is it in the save?

Anyhow, for the sake of the discussion, assume it is in a db file and that we thus need to make a mod if we want to make all provinces in Europe having one and the same culture. Then in the current case it seems as easy to give everyone all of the european cultures (by editing the starting save) as editing the db files and creating a mod. Thus, there seems to be no reason at all for a mod.

 

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Fair enough, I thought you would spot it yourself, but here goes:

If I am France (assuming paradox setup here for now) and you the Dutch, no auction can prevent me from annexing you.

The only thing to give us both a fair position is by using a mod. An auction can't solve geographica disadvantages.

What on earth are you talking about. I have specifically stated that we will each start with some 3-4 provinces (or was it 2-3?).

FAL, this is the control tower calling on you: please come back to earth and regain saneness. And stop being so bound by your experience of what happens in normal games. To be able to take part in this discussion at 100% of your capacity you must threw off the fetters of your experience and be able to accept that we present a new approach to the game. Since you played in ToH you should be able to do it. Come on!

 

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4: the better the player, the worse the location. For example, DA is a good player when it comes to trade; he should be given an awfull location.

Hehe, I would not implement that idea I think

Besides, we will not adjust because of skill. The idea of the game is to reward skilful play. If you end up big and rich you have played well, if not you have not. The positioning on the map will, as it looks now, be decided by the auction.

But that does not rule out players with less experience can take part. No one expects them to do well in this kind of game, as no one expects them to do well in a normal game.

 

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But when I think more about, where is the province culture stored? Is it in a db file, or is it in the save?

Province.csv, but it can be modded by editing only the savegame too, I remember now.

Thus, there seems to be no reason at all for a mod.

Ah, but you are generalising too much now. There might not be the need of a mod to alter the cultures (As I wrongly stated first) but a mod has the advantage that you can alter events, goods etc. You can with a mod simply balance more things than with only editing the savegame and thus have a better tool to reach the goal IMO.

This advantage outweights the disadvantage of having the players install a mod as a requirement to play.

 

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3: everybody recieves a CoT in their capital

Yes, you are on a problem here. There exists a geographical problem in the fact that some nations may have COTs and gold provinces close by and some may have not. Although that would be taken into consideration by the auction, the fact is that the less we leave to the auction the better. For obvious reasons.

To have all European COTs in the players capitals is a rather good idea I think. There will be many more than in a normal game but why not?

The gold problem remains. To change the goods does require a mod does it not? One alternative could be to remove all gold from Europe.

 

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What on earth are you talking about. I have specifically stated that we will each start with some 3-4 provinces (or was it 2-3?).

I used an example for the sake of discussion, obviously. Arco explained to you that even starting with minors doesn't solve the problem.

And stop being so bound by your experience of what happens in normal games. To be able to take part in this discussion at 100% of your capacity you must threw off the fetters of your experience and be able to accept that we present a new approach to the game. Since you played in ToH you should be able to do it. Come on!

Alas, the fetters of my experience tell me that your auction system will not solve the geographical disadvantages of your proposal. As have others tried to explain you in vain too, now and in the past.

 

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Ah, but you are generalising too much now. There might not be the need of a mod to alter the cultures (As I wrongly stated first) but a mod has the advantage that you can alter events, goods etc.

My dear FAL,

My guess is that saliva was running out of your mouth when you wrote that first sentence :rofl:

 

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Hehe, I would not implement that idea I think

Besides, we will not adjust because of skill. The idea of the game is to reward skilful play. If you end up big and rich you have played well, if not you have not. The positioning on the map will, as it looks now, be decided by the auction.

But that does not rule out players with less experience can take part. No one expects them to do well in this kind of game, as no one expects them to do well in a normal game.

How about the other points? I especially like the points 2, 5 and 6.
Also, giving everybody exotic tech means practically everybody has the same tech values. With regards to the other points, there are no advantages in leaders/monarchs/tech/merchants/... Everybody has the same stats, etc... This means players must mainly use their skill. (I'm for now leaving things like base tax values/MP/... aside for now; don't want to give too much at the same time ).

 

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My dear FAL,

My guess is that saliva was running out of your mouth when you wrote that first sentence :rofl:

You bet!

 

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Alas, the fetters of my experience tell me that your auction system will not solve the geographical disadvantages of your proposal. As have others tried to explain you in vain too, now and in the past.

No one has tried to explain it. Several has stated it will not. That is an extreme difference. I suggest we end this discussion. Neither you nor Arco adds anything of value to the analysis of the effectiveness on the auction idea. Come back if you have any substance to present.

I used an example for the sake of discussion, obviously. Arco explained to you while even start with minors doesn't solve the problem.

No he did not explain. He said that eventually the one starting in France would become France. This we do not know at all. It was a false statement. Too start with the number of players is very important. If we are e.g. only 6 then the one starting in the French area will prolly end up much bigger. If we are 15 much smaller. But even if we end up in a more normal number, like 10-12 we do not know the outcome
1. Perhaps we even lack one starting in France, we instead have two starting at the border of France
2. But even if we have only starting in the French area we certainly do not know that this player (a 3-province minor as the rest) will eventually become much bigger than the one starting as a 3-province minor in e.g. North Germany or the Lowlands.

It is as I say: you are bound by your experience to the earth while my mind flies like a bird in the sky.