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War with Tibet, 1179-90
Zenek K: It would hardly be a good Chinese Empire sans Beijing would it
?
Jwolf: It would indeed seem that whiteness and blobiness go together in this game, the Song is about to get blobbier still, I onlly fear that Big Purple Mongol Blob to the north now.
Stnyaln: Tibet learns a bitter lesson in betrayl in the very near future, fear not. As for the Mongols, I took the Song hoping to get a nation tough enough to give Jingiz and pals a run for their money.
Judge: Fascinating period, I must admit. Our only Asian History Professor at my school specialized in the Song and got me interested in it. I've also long been fascinated by the Mongol conquests, so this a fun vicarious history for me.
After allowing the alliance with Tibet to expire in 1184, debate at the Song court raged as to which of the Emperor’s enemies to attack first. The now unallied Song would have to proceed with caution, as Tibetan and Vietnamese forces would not be offering assistance in the foreseeable future. An extreme hawkish faction urged a preemptive strike against the Mongols, but the Mongols made that option seem unattractive when they roused themselves from their torpor to annex the Kyrgyz. Mainstream opinion in Hangzhou was divided between those favoring an attack on Tibet to restore the Imperial dignity and those favoring an attack on the Jin for the simple strategic reason that the weakened Jin would be destroyed by the Mongols if the Song didn’t take them first.
Emperor Xiazong ultimately came to favor the Dignity faction and duly began preparations for the invasion of his ex-ally Tibet. When the Tibetans were discovered constructing fortresses by Chinese scouts, all bets were off and war was declared in the spring of 1185, which a troop of cavalry dispatched to claim Sichuan before the Tibetans could finish their fortresses there. Though the first army was shamefully put to flight by Tibetan forces, a second Chinese army managed to seize Sichuan shortly before its fortress would have been completed. This brave army then cut deep into Tibetan territory, occupying the numerous unfortified positions deep inside Tibet. Yet the stout Tibetans were to give the Song the toughest resistance they had yet faced. Knowing the mountainous terrain, the Tibetans managed to foil several attempts to storm Lhasa, despite being outnumbered on all such occasions. If the Tibetans were exceedingly difficult to reach in their mountain fastness in the Himalayas, their possessions in the plains and desert country surrounding the mountains proved their undoing, as Chinese forces were able to occupy these territories with impunity. Though Lhasa still held out with its valiant defenders, the ruler of the Tibetans knew he would be unable to evict the Chinese from the foothills and valleys of his land and feared the eventual fall of his mountain strongholds as Song armies climbed into the mountains in growing numbers. Peace was made between Tibet and the Song Empire in 1187 with the Song receiving the provinces of Xining, Sichuan, Qinghai, and Guizhou.
By the end of the Tibetan War, it had become obvious to all that Emperor Xiazong’s days were running short. The once vigorous Emperor, who had begun the reconquest of the Yellow River and had punished the traitorous Tibetans by annexing their eastern holdings, was having increasing difficulty performing even the simplest administrative tasks. His arthritic hands were unable to write even the shortest notes of instruction and he became entirely dependent on the chancellery, reducing the confidence of those sections of society who harbored a deep distrust of the secretarial class. Nonetheless, business of the state went on, as the mercantile governors busied themselves restoring China’s lost position of predominance in the Shanghai market and an offer of alliance from the Korean Emperor was greeted favorably by the Chinese. Crisis dogged the Emperor even in old age, as the Mongols went on the war-path again, attacking the newly formed Jin-Tibetan alliance with stunning results in 1187-90, annexing numerous provinces from Jin and Tibetan hands while winning reparations to further their aggression. Could anyone stop the Mongols? Xiazong was never to know, as his illness finally overtook him in 1189 and his son Guangzong ascended the throne of a troubled land.
Zenek K: It would hardly be a good Chinese Empire sans Beijing would it
?Jwolf: It would indeed seem that whiteness and blobiness go together in this game, the Song is about to get blobbier still, I onlly fear that Big Purple Mongol Blob to the north now.
Stnyaln: Tibet learns a bitter lesson in betrayl in the very near future, fear not. As for the Mongols, I took the Song hoping to get a nation tough enough to give Jingiz and pals a run for their money.
Judge: Fascinating period, I must admit. Our only Asian History Professor at my school specialized in the Song and got me interested in it. I've also long been fascinated by the Mongol conquests, so this a fun vicarious history for me.
After allowing the alliance with Tibet to expire in 1184, debate at the Song court raged as to which of the Emperor’s enemies to attack first. The now unallied Song would have to proceed with caution, as Tibetan and Vietnamese forces would not be offering assistance in the foreseeable future. An extreme hawkish faction urged a preemptive strike against the Mongols, but the Mongols made that option seem unattractive when they roused themselves from their torpor to annex the Kyrgyz. Mainstream opinion in Hangzhou was divided between those favoring an attack on Tibet to restore the Imperial dignity and those favoring an attack on the Jin for the simple strategic reason that the weakened Jin would be destroyed by the Mongols if the Song didn’t take them first.
Emperor Xiazong ultimately came to favor the Dignity faction and duly began preparations for the invasion of his ex-ally Tibet. When the Tibetans were discovered constructing fortresses by Chinese scouts, all bets were off and war was declared in the spring of 1185, which a troop of cavalry dispatched to claim Sichuan before the Tibetans could finish their fortresses there. Though the first army was shamefully put to flight by Tibetan forces, a second Chinese army managed to seize Sichuan shortly before its fortress would have been completed. This brave army then cut deep into Tibetan territory, occupying the numerous unfortified positions deep inside Tibet. Yet the stout Tibetans were to give the Song the toughest resistance they had yet faced. Knowing the mountainous terrain, the Tibetans managed to foil several attempts to storm Lhasa, despite being outnumbered on all such occasions. If the Tibetans were exceedingly difficult to reach in their mountain fastness in the Himalayas, their possessions in the plains and desert country surrounding the mountains proved their undoing, as Chinese forces were able to occupy these territories with impunity. Though Lhasa still held out with its valiant defenders, the ruler of the Tibetans knew he would be unable to evict the Chinese from the foothills and valleys of his land and feared the eventual fall of his mountain strongholds as Song armies climbed into the mountains in growing numbers. Peace was made between Tibet and the Song Empire in 1187 with the Song receiving the provinces of Xining, Sichuan, Qinghai, and Guizhou.
By the end of the Tibetan War, it had become obvious to all that Emperor Xiazong’s days were running short. The once vigorous Emperor, who had begun the reconquest of the Yellow River and had punished the traitorous Tibetans by annexing their eastern holdings, was having increasing difficulty performing even the simplest administrative tasks. His arthritic hands were unable to write even the shortest notes of instruction and he became entirely dependent on the chancellery, reducing the confidence of those sections of society who harbored a deep distrust of the secretarial class. Nonetheless, business of the state went on, as the mercantile governors busied themselves restoring China’s lost position of predominance in the Shanghai market and an offer of alliance from the Korean Emperor was greeted favorably by the Chinese. Crisis dogged the Emperor even in old age, as the Mongols went on the war-path again, attacking the newly formed Jin-Tibetan alliance with stunning results in 1187-90, annexing numerous provinces from Jin and Tibetan hands while winning reparations to further their aggression. Could anyone stop the Mongols? Xiazong was never to know, as his illness finally overtook him in 1189 and his son Guangzong ascended the throne of a troubled land.
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A fitting wage for Tibetan betrayal. Surely it can't be long before the Mongols have to be faced up to.
Interesting... will you arrive in time to conquer the Jin? or will the mongols beat you in the race?
It appears that now you have a borderline with Mongols. The clash with them is unavoidable. But you better attack Jin now before Mongols do so.
Good work. Yes you must definatly take Jin before those pesky hordes get their hands on it.
I have to agree, get what you can from the Jin before the Mongols swallow them up...plus, I'd seriously consider allying yourself to some of your southern neighbors...I've noticed when I played the Mongols that they tend to send troops even as far north as into historic Mongol lands. They could be of some service to you in your efforts to defeat them...
Well, you've picked a tough country that's for sure. The Mongols in MES are insane! Still, you've held your own well so far and the Tibetians definitely deserved what you gave them. Everyone else's advice seems sound - finish off the Jin, and get yourself some new friends. When you finally do fight the Mongols it's going to be all out war.
Hey, great to see another zach' AAR!
I'll be following this one.
You surely need to grab northern China; but all this talk of war... why not rm or even ally the Mongols?
Nah, that'd be cowardly.
But might provide an opportunity to stab them in the back while they're busy beating up the Middle East and/or Europe.
I'll be following this one.
You surely need to grab northern China; but all this talk of war... why not rm or even ally the Mongols?
Nah, that'd be cowardly.
But might provide an opportunity to stab them in the back while they're busy beating up the Middle East and/or Europe.
Bee's advice is suitably Machiavellian. In any case, isn't it about time for Genghis Khan to appear on the scene? Interesting times await you, my friend.
In any case, isn't it about time for Genghis Khan to appear on the scene? Interesting times await you, my friend.
I never have played the MES but I can only assume the Mongols are very, very bad news. I bet you have a mixture of excitement and dread at the upcoming conflict with the hordes.
I like the suggestion that you get in an alliance with them. Between the two of you the world would shake in their boots. Of course they are such warmongers it probabbly would cost too much to retain good relations. Good start zacharym87.
Joe
Of course they are such warmongers it probabbly would cost too much to retain good relations. Good start zacharym87.Joe
Decadence and Distraction, 1190-96
Stnylan: Any moment now, I just hope I get the Jin before they do!
mfigueras: That remains to be seen, I hope to be as strong as possible by the time the Mongols come a'knockin'
Zenek K: Do I sense a trend here :rofl: ? I guess the smart money's not on Jin longevity these days.
Lord G.Q. White: Another wishing for me to take the Jin while there's time, we will certainyl try...
Amric: A southern Alliance eh? An interesting suggestion, as my current partner Koryo will probably be on the Mongol hit list soon
CatKnight: It's all winding down to the showdown with the Mongols, I hope it won't dissapoint!
TheBee: Ally with the Mongols? Bet that's easier than fighting them ! I'l put it under consideration.
Jwolf: As I remember my Asian history, Genghsi Khan came to power in the Kurlitai of 1206, but he's already showing up as the Mongol monarch (he was a Mongol prince previously IRL), anyone know when he ascends in the MES?
Braedonnal: I haven't faced the Mongols directly in the MES yet myslef, I anticipate a good challenge from them
Storey: Thanks for the compliments. I don't indeed know who could stop a joint China-Mongol invasion, be interesting to see!
On the very night Guangzong ascended the throne, there was a party in Hangzhou the likes of which the fair city had never seen before. Barrel after barrel of rice wine was opened and consumed by the new Emperor and his dissolute friends and associates, the ominous beginnings of a reign that would delay the Chinese nation for half a decade from their mission to reconquer the basin of the Yellow River—not merely for purposes of prestige, but also to find a method of holding back the onrushing Mongols, whose nomadic empire continued to grow by leaps and bounds at China’s very door. Sadly, neither the Mongols nor any other question of foreign or domestic policy sparked the slightest interest from the debauched Emperor Guangzong and his retinue of hard-drinking courtiers, hangers-on, and eunuchs.
As countless historians of China have noted before, the only merciful aspect of Guangzong’s rule was its brevity, as the Emperor’s decadent lifestyle ensured a short life and a consequentially short reign, 5 years of “void at the center” as one Confucian historian remembered, ending in 1194 when the drunken Emperor careened into a large fountain and drowned, doubtless under the influence of numerous intoxicating substances. In those 5 years, as Guangzong’s more merciful biographers tell us, absolutely nothing of moment happened in Chinese government; there were no new laws except an Imperial ban on the taxing of rice wine, no new wars along the Yellow River, no fresh attempts to gather intelligence on the looming Mongol threat. For as Gunagzong saw it, there were always new bars to visit, new skirts to drool at, and new bottles of alcohol to drown out the distractions an Emperor might otherwise be required to pursue. In 1194, when Guangzong died, none save the wine-merchants and certain corrupt officials could be brought to tears, in marked contrast to his predecessors Gaozong and Xiazong, who had both received grand funerals upon their death. The young and responsible Emperor Ningzong, who succeeded Guangzong the drunkard, saw that his predecessor received the burial due to an Emperor but had no genuine tears to shed at a death which could only strengthen China.
Ningzong’s tasks upon ascension were numerous beyond measure, not least of which was the restoration of the Imperial dignity. Thus Ningzong’s first 2 years of rule were spent not in the promulgation of new laws nor in the vanquishing of China’s foes, but in cleansing the Augean Stables of the Eunuchs and attaches who had run China into the ground under Guangzong for their own personal benefit. It was not until 1196 that China had been effectively cleansed of internal sources of decadence; by then the nation was more than ready to resume the campaigns against the Jin designed to bring the Yellow River back under the rule of the True Son of Heaven, a program that would be underway again, after an unacceptable absence, during the spring of 1197.
Stnylan: Any moment now, I just hope I get the Jin before they do!
mfigueras: That remains to be seen, I hope to be as strong as possible by the time the Mongols come a'knockin'
Zenek K: Do I sense a trend here :rofl: ? I guess the smart money's not on Jin longevity these days.
Lord G.Q. White: Another wishing for me to take the Jin while there's time, we will certainyl try...
Amric: A southern Alliance eh? An interesting suggestion, as my current partner Koryo will probably be on the Mongol hit list soon
CatKnight: It's all winding down to the showdown with the Mongols, I hope it won't dissapoint!
TheBee: Ally with the Mongols? Bet that's easier than fighting them
! I'l put it under consideration.Jwolf: As I remember my Asian history, Genghsi Khan came to power in the Kurlitai of 1206, but he's already showing up as the Mongol monarch
(he was a Mongol prince previously IRL), anyone know when he ascends in the MES?Braedonnal: I haven't faced the Mongols directly in the MES yet myslef, I anticipate a good challenge from them
Storey: Thanks for the compliments. I don't indeed know who could stop a joint China-Mongol invasion, be interesting to see!
On the very night Guangzong ascended the throne, there was a party in Hangzhou the likes of which the fair city had never seen before. Barrel after barrel of rice wine was opened and consumed by the new Emperor and his dissolute friends and associates, the ominous beginnings of a reign that would delay the Chinese nation for half a decade from their mission to reconquer the basin of the Yellow River—not merely for purposes of prestige, but also to find a method of holding back the onrushing Mongols, whose nomadic empire continued to grow by leaps and bounds at China’s very door. Sadly, neither the Mongols nor any other question of foreign or domestic policy sparked the slightest interest from the debauched Emperor Guangzong and his retinue of hard-drinking courtiers, hangers-on, and eunuchs.
As countless historians of China have noted before, the only merciful aspect of Guangzong’s rule was its brevity, as the Emperor’s decadent lifestyle ensured a short life and a consequentially short reign, 5 years of “void at the center” as one Confucian historian remembered, ending in 1194 when the drunken Emperor careened into a large fountain and drowned, doubtless under the influence of numerous intoxicating substances. In those 5 years, as Guangzong’s more merciful biographers tell us, absolutely nothing of moment happened in Chinese government; there were no new laws except an Imperial ban on the taxing of rice wine, no new wars along the Yellow River, no fresh attempts to gather intelligence on the looming Mongol threat. For as Gunagzong saw it, there were always new bars to visit, new skirts to drool at, and new bottles of alcohol to drown out the distractions an Emperor might otherwise be required to pursue. In 1194, when Guangzong died, none save the wine-merchants and certain corrupt officials could be brought to tears, in marked contrast to his predecessors Gaozong and Xiazong, who had both received grand funerals upon their death. The young and responsible Emperor Ningzong, who succeeded Guangzong the drunkard, saw that his predecessor received the burial due to an Emperor but had no genuine tears to shed at a death which could only strengthen China.
Ningzong’s tasks upon ascension were numerous beyond measure, not least of which was the restoration of the Imperial dignity. Thus Ningzong’s first 2 years of rule were spent not in the promulgation of new laws nor in the vanquishing of China’s foes, but in cleansing the Augean Stables of the Eunuchs and attaches who had run China into the ground under Guangzong for their own personal benefit. It was not until 1196 that China had been effectively cleansed of internal sources of decadence; by then the nation was more than ready to resume the campaigns against the Jin designed to bring the Yellow River back under the rule of the True Son of Heaven, a program that would be underway again, after an unacceptable absence, during the spring of 1197.
And again you present a beautiful political background blended into a game mechanism. Now time to strengthen the country for the upcoming wars.
And this terrible five year period? Is it just a literary license for the AAR or do you really were that bad? (empty treasury? bad stats?)
Well you inspired me to try a game with the Song and it has been interesting watching the Mongols expand in my direction. I've allied with Korea and Viet Nam and I'm slowly expanding myself. Should be fun when our expanding empires meet!
Joe
Joe
Ain't it fun to get inept leaders at the wrong time? (Well, I suppose it could have been worse - you could have been at war with the Mongols).
But yes, my advice is the same as everyone else's - smash the Jin and then ally with the Mongols, at least until they find somewhere in the West to get killed in...
But yes, my advice is the same as everyone else's - smash the Jin and then ally with the Mongols, at least until they find somewhere in the West to get killed in...
Things are to become very interesting indeed. I can already picture those cool horse- men (the graphics are very cool) riding all over Asia, ouch. In my game as Roman Empire the Mongols thrash everything in their way so it will not be easy to stop them though Song China has a pretty strong position and should be one of few countries that could give the Mongols a match. IIRC there is an event involving the Mongols and Jins that might have an impact.
BTW have you updated to 0.3.3.3b?
BTW have you updated to 0.3.3.3b?