In the Defense of Germans (Hungary Livestream)

[Doctoxic]

Podcat commented on the DOWs that Hungary made....

I'm not sure if Daniel mentioned it and I couldnt watch stream today but the AI currently has some issues with stopping that particular way Daniel declares wars and expands. We will be reworking that before release so AI will step up and place guarantees to stop early expansions in a similar way it does to germany doing this. It has to do with generated tension by that particular nation and the fact that he can declare war on anyone with zero time delay, leaving no real time for AI to step in. The way tension works the allies can not simply declare war until its higher, they have to guarantee nations first and this leaves no room for that.

 

[GermanPower]

That's good to know.

Edit: I would like to see Germany make sure everybodies butts keep outta their focuses. But I have no idea what they'll do.

 

[wotertool]

Shouldn't a simple Guaranteed Independence of Austria by Germany and Italy fix the problem?

The Sudethenland is a way more specific "problem" since the Sudethenland are just provinces of a country and not the country as a whole. A Decision for Germany could come up, sending a Demand to the current owner of Bohemia & Moravia to hand over the german speaking provinces. Though if the Devs decide to go that way, if Austria takes over Czechoslovakia, this Decision for Germany should not be triggered. (Anschluss can be, since Austria can accept, join alliance or refuse and go to war).

Reason for that is because:
first, Austria is a german speaking country,
second, it once was part of Austria and
third and maybe most important point: The Sudethenland, "South"-Tyrol and small cities along the borders were part of the Republic of German-Austria, but due the lack of troops and the Treaty of Saint Germain, they could not be claimed (name also had to be changed + Anschlussverbot, however, German West Hungaria was added to Austria).

 

[GermanPower]

I was thinking a simple guarantee would work for Austria. Czechs are more of a issue.

 

[TheDungen]

Well the czechs should be capable of defendign themselves, if hitler had not been given the sudetenland even a german invasion of czechoslovakia would be very a very bloody affair. The czechs were a modern and industralised nation at the time. As I undertand it from the other thread they have defeated hungarian invasions in the past.

 

[TexasJaeger]

I think the issue is Daniel. He has done stuff like this since the stream with Johan. I mean to be perfectly honest he's just gaming the system and not really playing the game; which I find kind of annoying. I like the Stellaris stream so much better as they are showing the game and not just clicking and taking advantage of the AI.

 

[zyphial]

I think the issue is Daniel. He has done stuff like this since the stream with Johan. I mean to be perfectly honest he's just gaming the system and not really playing the game; which I find kind of annoying. I like the Stellaris stream so much better as they are showing the game and not just clicking and taking advantage of the AI.

Eh, actually I'm the exact opposite. The WWW feels like a demonstration of what you can expect for and do in Hoi4. It's rather like a Lets Play that shows exactly where the game is strong, where the game is weak, and what you as a player will be balancing when you're in the hot seat. The Blorg stream... far too often they have the game paused or are at the slowest speed, not bothering to look at and/or talk about anything game related. I can't even watch all the Blorg videos because something like +30% is them stopping the gameplay to make an extended "friend" joke. It was funny once or twice, but by now I'd rather they just play the game. I don't feel like I'm getting a real vision of the depth of the game, I feel like the kid gloves are on and far too many options are unexplored.

 

[GermanPower]

I think the issue is Daniel. He has done stuff like this since the stream with Johan. I mean to be perfectly honest he's just gaming the system and not really playing the game; which I find kind of annoying. I like the Stellaris stream so much better as they are showing the game and not just clicking and taking advantage of the AI.

I think a good singleplayer experience needs exploits fixed. EUIV has come a long way. I think rather HOI4 will have the same happen to it and I way way like HOI series more.

 

[Frosted Vert]

I think the issue is Daniel. He has done stuff like this since the stream with Johan. I mean to be perfectly honest he's just gaming the system and not really playing the game; which I find kind of annoying. I like the Stellaris stream so much better as they are showing the game and not just clicking and taking advantage of the AI.

I totally agree. He may be the 'best' at HoI IV but most of what we've seen from him is gamey. It reminds me of all the HoI 3 AARs about Albania world conquest. Within the game it is possible, if you do XYZ, but is it good gameplay? I would say no. Battleplans that are just an arrow to the capital and divisions that are pure infantry shouldn't work. Now, the fact is they currently do and since that is easier than the alternative, that is what Danial chooses to do.

 

[Squiglypig]

Well one way they could actually make it work is if it only gave cores on Austria if Austria didn't exist anymore, as well as casus belli.

 

[AOW]

I wonder if a mini "Monroe Doctrine" effect would be worthwhile and effective for curbing such early aggression. Each major could have a sphere of influence with certain protective effects. Imagine if Germany invaded Mexico in 1937. This assumes that there is a Monroe Doctrine type of code in the game and that it would be relatively easy to convert to the other majors' situations & geography.
I would really like to see Germany invade Austria in 1938 in the next WWW. No way Hitler lets that go imho.

 

[zyphial]

I totally agree. He may be the 'best' at HoI IV but most of what we've seen from him is gamey. It reminds me of all the HoI 3 AARs about Albania world conquest. Within the game it is possible, if you do XYZ, but is it good gameplay? I would say no. Battleplans that are just an arrow to the capital and divisions that are pure infantry shouldn't work. Now, the fact is they currently do and since that is easier than the alternative, that is what Danial chooses to do.

I think you're ignoring the speed and belligerence of Daniel's plays. Basically he's playing as a demented warlord ala Ghengis Khan in a time when world leaders were far more cautious, even the insanely violent ones. So he's exploiting the political situation (nations with underdevelopped armies and an unwillingness to get dragged into a war) by doing things that, historically, would have been unpalletable for any leader and/or people at the time. So, think of what he's doing as more of a pearl harbor than a "game exploit."

It wouldn't work this way - throwing waves of greenhorn infantry with poor organization - if the enemy he was going up against wasn't relatively weak. To show this, I think the next WWW series (not video - finish Hungary!) should be in 1939, when armies certainly aren't underdeveloped and the world is itching for war. Perhaps he should try, and fail, as a major to use the same tactics in '39 just to show the difference that tech, NF, and development have on the face of war.

 

[GermanPower]

I don't agree. The Wehrmacht wasn't ready for war with France. But it would have rofl stomped Hungary. It's a exploit in my view because Germany would have acted quickly and decisively. The allies were more dottling and cautious as you describe. I can't wrap my head around Germany letting Austria or the Sudetenland go to anyone but Germany. Being a warlord only lets Germany have a reason to take the countries. It's furthering German plans not hindering them like it's in the game. I'm sure Hitler would have loved for a earlier quick war without the allies getting involved. It would allow him to test the recently made air force and Wehrmacht. Germany would have been seen as even more a hero in the allies public then he was during securing Austria. He saved Austria and the Czech from the rule of Hungary. It would have been great for Germany and given them more time to prepare for Poland and the Allies.

You confuse the Allies timidness with Germany's decisiveness. I have no doubt they would have seized the lands and Hungary would have become nothing more then a puppet.

 

[TheDungen]

I think you're ignoring the speed and belligerence of Daniel's plays. Basically he's playing as a demented warlord ala Ghengis Khan in a time when world leaders were far more cautious, even the insanely violent ones. So he's exploiting the political situation (nations with underdevelopped armies and an unwillingness to get dragged into a war) by doing things that, historically, would have been unpalletable for any leader and/or people at the time. So, think of what he's doing as more of a pearl harbor than a "game exploit."

It wouldn't work this way - throwing waves of greenhorn infantry with poor organization - if the enemy he was going up against wasn't relatively weak. To show this, I think the next WWW series (not video - finish Hungary!) should be in 1939, when armies certainly aren't underdeveloped and the world is itching for war. Perhaps he should try, and fail, as a major to use the same tactics in '39 just to show the difference that tech, NF, and development have on the face of war.

Yeah but if the hungarians had gone ghengis khan then it would have changed the course of history. The divide along idelogical lines happened because those countries did not step on each others toes, but with hungary invading austria that would not have been the case. You probably would have seen much more first world war style alliances instead. And whatever alliances popped up would have eventually have affected the internal politics of the involved countries.

Even with historical focuses the AI should adapt if the situation changes.

 

[208]

I think the issue is Daniel. He has done stuff like this since the stream with Johan. I mean to be perfectly honest he's just gaming the system and not really playing the game; which I find kind of annoying. I like the Stellaris stream so much better as they are showing the game and not just clicking and taking advantage of the AI.

To be completely fair, some people consider gaming the system to be "playing the game". I mean, just go read the EU4 forum....

 

[GermanPower]

That's true. It's just hard for me to buy when you use exploits that we know shouldn't work in a practical sense. To me that's a bit gamey. It's in the game but that doesn't entirely mean that's a good thing.

 

[Oriflamme]

I'm not too familiar with HoI IV's treatment of demilitarization, but Hungary should start off demilitarized to some extent. The Little Entente was created with at least the secondary purpose of encircling Hungary. If Hungary began remilitarizing and invading any of its neighbors, it would have provoked an immediate response from any of the surrounding countries.

 

[Thiomay]

Maybe when you play a game for the first time you are immersed to a level that you don't want to powergame becaus it breakes the illusion. But how many hundreds/thousends of hours does Daniel have on HoI4? When you definitifly know which features are in the game and which aren't things are a lot less magical.

I personally feel like the anti comintern pact serves as a possible justification for Germany's friendliness. There is also the fact that Hungary also has claims on the land, or at the very least all land he has conquered so far has been Austro-Hungarian land.

The thing about Austro-Hungaria was that it had an 'austrian' and a 'hungarian' halfe to appease the hungarian population. In Czechoslovakia hungary could only 'resonably' claim slovakia. In austria the area that could be disputed (Burgenland) is the size of a single province streached along the border. It doesn't seem to be represened by the provinces in game. It's impossible enouth to explain why hungary would annex austria in 36 but that is the players choice. There should however be some sort of intervention at some point. An italian guarantee and german claims on austira and the sudetenland seem resonable and easy enoth to implement. If that causes germany and italy to fight over austria, that is still fairly plausible.

 

[TheDungen]

Maybe when you play a game for the first time you are immersed to a level that you don't want to powergame becaus it breakes the illusion. But how many hundreds/thousends of hours does Daniel have on HoI4? When you definitifly know which features are in the game and which aren't things are a lot less magical.

That's when the game should be considered to be beyond it's point of replayability and the idea with a game with high replayability is to try and push that point towards infinity, not cater to those who liks powergaming. They are few and the ones who would prefer the game tom be played as it is meant to be played are vastly more numerous.

 

[Thiomay]

Powergaming is not entirly a yes or no question. Neither is replayability. The point is the more you play a game the more you become aware of it's limitations. Daniel wanted to show of a minor in a very limited amount of time. Plus we were expecting action. There was very little room for realism or roleplaying a nation (what ever that means)