In the Defense of Germans (Hungary Livestream)

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GermanPower

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Having tried to script as many "what if" questions as possible through decisions and event chains for just one country (Italy) in my mod, it is a great deal of work, particularly if you tried to do it for every nation. The variables and possible outcomes seem to expand exponentially, and each possibility needs to be carefully scripted and tested and corrected and retested, etc.

It would be better if they sought a solution based upon basic game mechanics. For example, a major power could be gifted automatic victory points for peace conference purposes for every nation in its sphere of influence and even more automatic points if it has claims or cores -- even if it did not participate in the fighting. So, Hungary can take over Czechoslovakia but Germany would come into the peace conference, even though it did none of the fighting, and say "not so fast -- hands off the Sudetenland". Then when Hungary takes over Yugoslavia, Italy will show up at the peace conference and claim Dalmatia.
No one's saying for every event in the entire planet. We are talking a ultimatum event. The guy above for some reason thinks we are talking to accurately predict everything.

My point is to make sure Germany keeps protection over it's direct lands. That's as simply as done if you just guarantee them. To say it's hard is..well odd.
 
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modogrinder

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No one's saying for every event in the entire planet. We are talking a ultimatum event. The guy above for some reason thinks we are talking to accurately predict everything.

My point is to make sure Germany keeps protection over it's direct lands. That's as simply as done if you just guarantee them. To say it's hard is..well odd.

So why this event and not another event? Because you saw it on a stream? Does that make it somehow more important to accurately model this event historically than every other possible what-if?
 

GermanPower

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So why this event and not another event? Because you saw it on a stream? Does that make it somehow more important to accurately model this event historically than every other possible what-if?
That's irrelevant and begging the question. Keep on-topic. It should be self evident why this is important. If you want to argue it's importance I'm not interested in explaining why something like this is important. Give a argument for why it's not important not just saying why is it more. If you don't get that Germany's rise to power was directly effected by securing these lands and resources...I don't know where to start.
 
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TheDungen

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Yeah I also feel that hungary takign austria and cszechoslovakia would have been a wet dream for hitler, he could just march on them and take them and even be seen as a liberator.

There should be an event whenever you take land beloning to someone of a diffrent culture group (are there even cultures in the game?) that all fascists of that culture group gets cores/claims on that land.
 
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modogrinder

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That's irrelevant and begging the question. Keep on-topic. It should be self evident why this is important. If you want to argue it's importance I'm not interested in explaining why something like this is important. Give a argument for why it's not important not just saying why is it more. If you don't get that Germany's rise to power was directly effected by securing these lands and resources...I don't know where to start.

First sentence: tells me it's irrelevant and accuses me of a fallacy (apparently chosen at random - do you know what begging the question even means?). Second sentence: accuses me of being off-topic. Third sentence: "it should be obvious what the answer is", without answering the question.

You know you don't have an argument when you write up an entire paragraph about how you shouldn't have to argue that point instead of making the argument.
 
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GermanPower

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First sentence: tells me it's irrelevant and accuses me of a fallacy (apparently chosen at random - do you know what begging the question even means?). Second sentence: accuses me of being off-topic. Third sentence: "it should be obvious what the answer is", without answering the question.

You know you don't have an argument when you write up an entire paragraph about how you shouldn't have to argue that point instead of making the argument.
It means directly what you said. I wasn't accusing you of a fallacy. I was literally accusing you of begging a question. Saying what about this? What about this what about this and this and this? Instead of engaging the topic on hand. So take less philosophy classes?

What I was saying was if you know anything about World War 2. It should be self-evident to why these lands are so important to Germany mobilizing and playing on the grand stage. I'm saying there's no need for argument because any student of world war 2 should know exactly why these lands are so important. If you want to actually say something instead of begging questions actually take down why it'd be a bad idea besides bringing up off-topic and irrelevant points.
 
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vicerory

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Having tried to script as many "what if" questions as possible through decisions and event chains for just one country (Italy) in my mod, it is a great deal of work, particularly if you tried to do it for every nation. The variables and possible outcomes seem to expand exponentially, and each possibility needs to be carefully scripted and tested and corrected and retested, etc.

It would be better if they sought a solution based upon basic game mechanics. For example, a major power could be gifted automatic victory points for peace conference purposes for every nation in its sphere of influence and even more automatic points if it has claims or cores -- even if it did not participate in the fighting. So, Hungary can take over Czechoslovakia but Germany would come into the peace conference, even though it did none of the fighting, and say "not so fast -- hands off the Sudetenland". Then when Hungary takes over Yugoslavia, Italy will show up at the peace conference and claim Dalmatia.

Agreed.

Beyond buying of majors with territory, another cool feature would be adding coalition system like EU has. If a regional power starts blob, it stands to reason that its rivals should unite. It never made sense to me that I could take over the whole of South America as Argentina, when in reality most nations on the continent would unite out of fear of being annexed.
 
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Augustus93

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People seem to forget that this is a game and not a historical simulator. When it is in historical mode, it only means that the countries will chose largely historical paths in their national focus trees and nothing more.
 
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GermanPower

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But it'd be terrible if someone were to say maybe in addition to do some things to facilitate keeping things historical/realistic in historical mode?
 

zyphial

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It's certainly neither ideal nor plausible for release, but HOI4 would really benefit from an "ambitions" system similar to EU4's Provinces of Interest system. The AI should have "ambitions" towards any culturally similar territory, and any resource rich territory near enough to it's own borders to cause... tension. Especially after absorbing its nationalist/cultural interests. Holding a province that is another nation's ambition should slowly deteriorate relations, and maybe Germany or other nations could have a "belligerent" modifier that greatly jacks up this deterioration (Poland is Unhappy Hungary annexed CS and slowly shows this unhappiness, but Germany goes from plucky friend to Desires Your Territory faster than France and Belgian Waffles).

You can explain away the weirdness (Germany supports Hungarian expansion only to lay the smackdown shortly thereafter) as deft political manuevering. As was said in the other WWW/Hungary thread about CS forts, German annexation of CS was not a sure thing by any stretch and war was undesirable. Beating up a bloodied Hungary and bypassing all those forts altogether while also scooping up Austria all with the pretense of liberation against a hostile aggressor? Sounds tempting, and what can the allies say??
 
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Augustus93

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But it'd be terrible if someone were to say maybe in addition to do some things to facilitate keeping things historical/realistic in historical mode?
So that it becomes impossible to play as minors? So you get a choice of being able to play either a totally random campaign where you see all kinds of craziness and a campaign where you are destined to sit around not doing anything because why even bother since you are just a minor who will get crushed by everyone and you can't even declare wars against other minors?
 
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TheDungen

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People seem to forget that this is a game and not a historical simulator. When it is in historical mode, it only means that the countries will chose largely historical paths in their national focus trees and nothing more.
If you want a game with no sense of historicity then go play chess. Historicity is a big part of paradox GSGs.
 
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Augustus93

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If you want a game with no sense of historicity then go play chess. Historicity is a big part of paradox GSGs.
If you want a simulator then play flight simulator. History is part of the game but it is a game and you should be able to diverge from history or maybe you think that it is OK for Germany to lose 100% of times regardless of what you do, hey it did happen in real life so let's force it 100% of the times for historical accuracy...
 
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So that it becomes impossible to play as minors? So you get a choice of being able to play either a totally random campaign where you see all kinds of craziness and a campaign where you are destined to sit around not doing anything because why even bother since you are just a minor who will get crushed by everyone and you can't even declare wars against other minors?
No it means as a minor you actually are a minor. It means you can't mess with Majors ambitions and have to be careful with what you do besides worrying about world tension. I don't think being a minor should being able to do whatever you want. That's what Majors are for. Minors should mean something. Meaning you've gotta be careful. Maybe you have to invade Romania because others are in the sphere of other nations. Or Yugoslavia. I dislike the idea of a minor being able to ruin a Majors plans and the Major being like go ahead! GO GO! It's silly. You should be limited. I'm sorry. That's how I see it. I'm not against minors having wars and gaining power. I am against them directly interfering with a key part of a nations building or gearing up for war.

Secondly. I'm not arguing for total historical following. Simply actions should have consequences. In my view and it seems many others..this should have a big consequence.
 
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vicerory

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I don't think people mean for HOI IV to be a simulation down to the pop level, just that the game should simulate these major parts of the international diplomacy of the time.

Let's take the peace-conference system as an example. Of course you're not going to create a separate peace-event tree for every single nation or combination of nations, that isn't feasible. Instead you create a system that tries to model the underlying idea behind peace conferences (divvying up the spoils based on bargaining power/strength) so that you can easily extend it to every nation, so that even Hungary can have it's own peace conferences with other minors.

Same with minors that take over territory in the sphere of a major, or blobbing minors. You're not going to model event trees for the off chance that Hungary annexes Austria, or in case Venezuela decides to conquer each South American nation one by one. Instead, you're going to take the peace-conference route, and create a system that tries to model the underlying idea. In the case of Hungary annexing Austria the underlying idea could be that Italy and Germany both have claims on parts of that territory, and that gives them a reason to intervene in case of annexation. Same with blobbing minors, model the idea that a growing threat (Germoney) makes it's neighbors uneasy and more likely to all with one another.

From what I can see, the basic functionality for this is already in the game. Making Germany and Italy (through their cores) part of a peace conference should be feasible enough. Hungary could then choose to grant them some lands to appease them, or risk war or giving them a casus belli. Same with blobs, maybe countries that raise world tension could raise the likelihood of their minor neighbors allying, etc.
 
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TheDungen

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If you want a simulator then play flight simulator. History is part of the game but it is a game and you should be able to diverge from history or maybe you think that it is OK for Germany to lose 100% of times regardless of what you do, hey it did happen in real life so let's force it 100% of the times for historical accuracy...
Is there even such a thing as a history simmulator?
And yes I'd like the game to be really hard to win as germany. Atleast if the US enters the war.
 
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The_Meme_Man

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I personally feel like the anti comintern pact serves as a possible justification for Germany's friendliness. There is also the fact that Hungary also has claims on the land, or at the very least all land he has conquered so far has been Austro-Hungarian land.
 

GermanPower

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I do see that but I don't think Germany would ever have given up those lands. A different lead Germany sure. But the rule of German people by non-germans is something that Germany wouldn't stand for and would let Hitler accomplish his goals very early. That's my view at least.
 
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TheDungen

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You just conquered Hitler's homeland! I'm sorry but there is no way you should be able to be more than neutral with him after that.
 
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