In the Defense of Germans (Hungary Livestream)

[GermanPower]

I took issue with Daniel's easy take over of the two German populated states and only him kicking up the world tension and his only concern the Allies.

I think if we all look at it. What that would do is only incentives Germany to invade and kick out Hungary and take the lands for themselves. To as the title states defend the German people. The Geopolitics at the time would have lead to a quick German mobilization and declaration of war. Germany wouldn't, certainly Hitler wouldn've allowed anyone's footsteps on his future nations of Anschluss. Hitler or rather Germany was simply waiting for a opportunity to take those nations over. Hungary would just provide the reasoning or opportunity. There's no way Hitler would have allowed his home country to be taken over like that. To me it would have simply opened the door for Germany reasoning why it had to take over and secure the lands from the evil Hungarians.

Now in a non-historical mode I can understand the madness that might happen where suddenly Germany forgets about it's plans and Hilter a staunch nationalist suddenly turns into a "Who cares?" . But this was suppose to be historical no? I think it should adapt a little realism like this. No one's going to be able to just walk in and take German speaking lands not with the mad man of Germany at the helm. I feel very solid in the fact Germany would have simply used this as reason for invading instead of the Austrian political chaos or the treaty of Munich to get those lands. Hungary would have advanced the plans. I

TLDR:
German Speaking lands = Hitler invading you
Geopolitics of 36-37 = Hitler invades you
Non-Historical Mode = Understandable for this to happen.
Hungary creates a opportunity for Germany to accomplish it's goals early by being a clear aggressor

 

[vicerory]

Agreed. At the least the Hungarian player should be forced to treat with the Germans when making peace, like giving them their cores/claims in order to buy off war. I feel like this could work well within the current peace treaty structure, and would prevent easy and unrealistic blobbing.

 

[GermanPower]

It was just a little silly that Germany was all supportive and friendly of Hungary because they were both fascist. I get the intent and it's all good and well. But Germany never would have let Hungarian boots step in what Hitler considered German lands.

I plan to steal a Pizza. Someone steals that Pizza first. I'm not friends with that guy simply because we are both liberals. I'm beating that guy up and taking the Pizza. That's how I see it in food terms because I'm hungary for Pizza.

 

[Squiglypig]

You didn't plan to steal that pizza, though, you hadn't done that personal focus yet.

 

[modogrinder]

I've said this each thread it's popped up in, and I'm going to continue saying this.

If you want them to model every single possibly intricacy of the geopolitical landscape in 1936 in a "realistic" fashion, are you prepared for them to delay the game at least two years to accommodate your desire? Keep in mind there are millions of possible "what-ifs" that never happened: what-if Hungary invades Austria in 1936, what-if Hungary invades Czechoslavakia, what-if Austria invades Czechoslovakia, so on, and so forth... for millions of combinations, of many things and not just immediate invasions too. For them to model accurate responses from each nation would involve an incredibly complex and detailed overhaul of the game's political system. It doesn't just happen by magic.

You can "respectfully disagree" all you want, unless you have a proposal for how they could model a "realistic" response not just for Germany responding to Hungary but also how every country responds to every other country, it's not going to happen, and if it were going to happen it would take years more to develop.

 

[GermanPower]

AH! But I wrote my book a long time ago called Mein Pizza that detailed my struggle to steal the pizza due to hungary.

 

[Kolaris]

You can "respectfully disagree" all you want, unless you have a proposal for how they could model a "realistic" response not just for Germany responding to Hungary but also how every country responds to every other country, it's not going to happen, and if it were going to happen it would take years more to develop.

At the very least controlling Cores that a nation (especially fascist) desires should be a large enough diplomatic penalty as to outweigh a shared government type.

 

[GermanPower]

I've said this each thread it's popped up in, and I'm going to continue saying this.

If you want them to model every single possibly intricacy of the geopolitical landscape in 1936 in a "realistic" fashion, are you prepared for them to delay the game at least two years to accommodate your desire? Keep in mind there are millions of possible "what-ifs" that never happened: what-if Hungary invades Austria in 1936, what-if Hungary invades Czechoslavakia, what-if Austria invades Czechoslovakia, so on, and so forth... for millions of combinations, of many things and not just immediate invasions too. For them to model accurate responses from each nation would involve an incredibly complex and detailed overhaul of the game's political system. It doesn't just happen by magic.

The entire point of this HOI4 I thought was answering the what if question? Your comment is rather pointless. Way over exaggerating the work, you really have no clue. Nor do I. I just know it's not a difficult thing to do and I know of a few mods that do it for previous HOI titles. Kasieriech does it with a single event that I assume took a day to code and get working properly.

To just go on, it's about something that's totally nonsensical happening in the game and all my suggestion is it should be fixed. Germany shouldn't be pro hey lets let other nations take over German lands. To act as if that's some complex hard thing to do is..well strange. To me Germany should be protecting and worrying about it's neighbors in the first place. Why are you against it? Do you even know how hard it'd be? Seriously. You arguing against nations being aware of what's going on around them. Like what? I'm talking about something I find essential to a world war 2 game. That's Germany making sure to keep it's focus sured. Like why are you thinking it's some impossible thing to do?

 

[vicerory]

If you want them to model every single possibly intricacy of the geopolitical landscape in 1936 in a "realistic" fashion, are you prepared for them to delay the game at least two years to accommodate your desire? Keep in mind there are millions of possible "what-ifs" that never happened: what-if Hungary invades Austria in 1936, what-if Hungary invades Czechoslavakia, what-if Austria invades Czechoslovakia, so on, and so forth... for millions of combinations, of many things and not just immediate invasions too. For them to model accurate responses from each nation would involve an incredibly complex and detailed overhaul of the game's political system. It doesn't just happen by magic.

Strawman, thy name is modogrinder.

 

[parkerg12]

- An easy solution would to give Germany a demand cores Focus that would trigger if another country seizes Austria or the Sudetenland. if they refuse - Germany goes to war for them

_ simple

 

[favonius]

My assumption is this, AI Germany didn't care because Germany doesn't start with claims on Austria and the Sudetenland. Germany doesn't start with those claims because it may be OP for them to be able to dow and take those claims in 1936 with minimal world tension growth.

Maybe the solution would be to have an event giving Germany claims on those states if they were controlled by a third nation, like Hungary. The obvious pretext used by Germany would be that they are protecting fellow Germans from X nation's aggressive expansion.

 

[modogrinder]

I have exactly how much of a clue how much work it would take. You're 100% correct that modeling Germany's specific response to Hungary invading Austria would not take very much work. Here's the big catch, though: why would they accurately model only that one specific what-if, leaving every single other what-if in the game with less attention to detail than Germany's response to Hungary invading Austria? This would just lead to you asking why another, different what-if didn't play out like it would historically, and then another, and then another - and to model every single what-if historically accurately is a gargantuan undertaking.

 

[GermanPower]

Read above what people said. I know that's possible in the other HOI series and rather easy to do..you just have to make sure it fits right. That's the biggest issue. Make sure it fires when it's suppose to..the actual work is rather simple. Secondly once you construct one of those events you literally just need to replace nation tags to apply it to anyone else. I don't like saying this because i don't know how HOI4 is going to work. But my experience with 3 and 2 and DH tell me this is very easy to do.

 

[Mutagen_Prime]

...unless you have a proposal for how they could model a "realistic" response not just for Germany responding to Hungary but also how every country responds to every other country, it's not going to happen, and if it were going to happen it would take years more to develop.

1. Give Germany cores on predominantly German-populated provinces.
2. Make Germany hostile towards countries with a significant amount of said provinces.
3. Give Germany an instant interventionist casus belli whenever a country with a significant amount of said provinces is invaded.

It really is deplorable and also kinda indefensible that Hungary and likely other nations in the game have a free hand to paint the map however they please this late in development in historical mode without any tangible repercussions. I hope it's fixed.

 

[Kolaris]

I have exactly how much of a clue how much work it would take. You're 100% correct that modeling Germany's specific response to Hungary invading Austria would not take very much work. Here's the big catch, though: why would they accurately model only that one specific what-if, leaving every single other what-if in the game with less attention to detail than Germany's response to Hungary invading Austria? This would just lead to you asking why another, different what-if didn't play out like it would historically, and then another, and then another - and to model every single what-if historically accurately is a gargantuan undertaking.

First, you're over-complicating things. You can improve all unexpected core-takeovers at once, or at least the German ones, not specifically Hungary.

Second, I'd like to think the devs would address these issues as they came up. Here they have a chance to improve things, I don't think they'd stop and say "but if I improve the game here, I might have to improve it more later!"

 

[modogrinder]

1. Give Germany cores on predominantly German-populated provinces.
2. Make Germany hostile towards countries with a significant amount of said provinces.
3. Give Germany an instant interventionist casus belli whenever a country with a significant amount of said provinces is invaded.

It really is deplorable and also kinda indefensible that Hungary and likely other nations in the game have a free hand to paint the map however they please this late in development in historical mode without any tangible repercussions. I hope it's fixed.

It's like you didn't even read what I said at all. What's your proposal for them handling EVERY SINGLE WHAT-IF, not just this ONE SPECIFIC what-if. Or is this the only what-if scenario that you care about being a-historical?

 

[Mutagen_Prime]

It's like you didn't even read what I said at all. What's your proposal for them handling EVERY SINGLE WHAT-IF, not just this ONE SPECIFIC what-if. Or is this the only what-if scenario that you care about being a-historical?

1. Rince and repeat steps one-through-three with literally any fascist nation.

 

[GermanPower]

I don't like giving solutions to a game that's not released. I have no clue how it works. It's also why i find it silly to say it's impossibly hard. History of the series tells me it's easy to do..I can do one myself a ultimatum event. Instead of claiming you know how hard it is. Why not argue against the merit of what I said rather then hypothetical no one knows but the devs. (I find it highly unlikely because of my experience modding that it'd be a 2 year process it sounds more like a week long process)

 

[modogrinder]

First, you're over-complicating things. You can improve all unexpected core-takeovers at once, or at least the German ones, not specifically Hungary.

Second, I'd like to think the devs would address these issues as they came up. Here they have a chance to improve things, I don't think they'd stop and say "but if I improve the game here, I might have to improve it more later!"

You're right that you could handle batches of interactions at a time; you could code a response for Germany to any country invading Austria instead of doing it one by one. But even with batches, there's still a million other what-ifs than what happens when someone invades Austria. Also, Germany isn't the only response you'd have to model - I think the Allies would have something to say about Hungary taking over Austria and Czechoslovakia within a year, and so would neighboring countries. Absolutely everything would have to be changed, and that's just for this one specific example.

And the end result of all this? Hungary is unplayable. There's no point to even trying to play as them since you'd just sit there and do nothing, otherwise you'd incur the entire wrath of Europe. At best you could join with Germany and have absolutely zero real impact on the outcome of the world. Whee. What an improvement to the game, to make minors irrelevant!

 

[tommylotto]

The entire point of this HOI4 I thought was answering the what if question? Your comment is rather pointless. Way over exaggerating the work, you really have no clue. Nor do I. I just know it's not a difficult thing to do and I know of a few mods that do it for previous HOI titles. Kasieriech does it with a single event that I assume took a day to code and get working properly.

Having tried to script as many "what if" questions as possible through decisions and event chains for just one country (Italy) in my mod, it is a great deal of work, particularly if you tried to do it for every nation. The variables and possible outcomes seem to expand exponentially, and each possibility needs to be carefully scripted and tested and corrected and retested, etc.

It would be better if they sought a solution based upon basic game mechanics. For example, a major power could be gifted automatic victory points for peace conference purposes for every nation in its sphere of influence and even more automatic points if it has claims or cores -- even if it did not participate in the fighting. So, Hungary can take over Czechoslovakia but Germany would come into the peace conference, even though it did none of the fighting, and say "not so fast -- hands off the Sudetenland". Then when Hungary takes over Yugoslavia, Italy will show up at the peace conference and claim Dalmatia.