In Novo Iure: Dynamic de jure structure and improved cultural toponymy

[Ciccillo Rre]

I have uploaded a new version, consistent with the changes introduced with patches 2.4.3 and 2.4.4, which includes some tweaks to the de jure maps and kingdom names, especially in the steppes from 1066 on. Importantly, I have corrected a bug in the history/technology files, which do not mention the duchies of Zaragoza and Erzurum in their vanilla versions.

Details and changelog are, as usual, in the first and third posts of this thread.

Edit: This works for 2.4.5 as well.

 

[jebezt2]

Any news?

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Any news?

About what? We have a stable version for the latest patch, right?

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I have made a quick update that should work with the 2.5.x patches.

 

[gidaka]

Thank you that you can now create the kingdom of Rus in its borders, rather than two fictional kingdoms Rutneniya and Rus. But please: do the same for charlemagne periods (769) and the old year (867).

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Thank you that you can now create the kingdom of Rus in its borders, rather than two fictional kingdoms Rutneniya and Rus. But please: do the same for charlemagne periods (769) and the old year (867).

I think for that period the distinction is fine. You can still de jure drift between then and 1000AD, the time of Vladimir and Yaroslav!

 

[damanamana]

Has this mod been abandoned? Or are there plans to update it for M&M?

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

There will be an update for M&M! Not sure if before or after 2.7.1 - even though it should not really matter, as 2.7.1 is unlikely to affect the modded files, I guess.

I'm sorry I haven't touched the mod for a while: I've been busy with RL, and I'm not really playing Paradox games these days, having fallen in love with the original Mass Effect trilogy. But I am committed to keep the mod updated until the end of the game's development cycle!

 

[damanamana]

There will be an update for M&M! Not sure if before or after 2.7.1 - even though it should not really matter, as 2.7.1 is unlikely to affect the modded files, I guess.

I'm sorry I haven't touched the mod for a while: I've been busy with RL, and I'm not really playing Paradox games these days, having fallen in love with the original Mass Effect trilogy. But I am committed to keep the mod updated until the end of the game's development cycle!

Hooray! Thank you!!

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I have updated the mod. It turns out to be a relatively substantial update given the scale of this mod. The main change has been the removal of the Empire of Samia/Pohjola; however I have assigned the same color and flag it used to have to k_sapmi, so that the former Empire of Samia can still be created as a custom empire and retain the same look. See the changelog for other changes. If you have strong feelings about any of the changes, please let me know!

 

[damanamana]

You're the absolute best

 

[damanamana]

Your mod is fantastic. I can't play the base map without it anymore
Can you please add a Mizrahi (Israelite) culture to the mod? The Arabized Jews of the MENA were a huge deal and very distinct from both Iberianized (Sephardi) & Germanized (Ashkenazi) Jews.
And can you please add an event that shifts Hebrew to Ashkenazi in the 1066 and later bookmarks? That Jewish culture developed within the Carolingian empire and, while arguably inappropriate for earlier bookmarks, is certainly fitting for the rest of the game. (And I would argue that "Ashkenazi" is a more useful moniker for those Jews than "Hebrew" is, since "Hebrew" culture diverged into multiple branches when Jews dispersed throughout the Roman empire and because the European pre-Ashkenazi Jewish culture only exists in two game bookmarks.)
Thanks!

Oh, and also: why did the Samia empire need to be removed?

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Your mod is fantastic. I can't play the base map without it anymore
Can you please add a Mizrahi (Israelite) culture to the mod? The Arabized Jews of the MENA were a huge deal and very distinct from both Iberianized (Sephardi) & Germanized (Ashkenazi) Jews.
And can you please add an event that shifts Hebrew to Ashkenazi in the 1066 and later bookmarks? That Jewish culture developed within the Carolingian empire and, while arguably inappropriate for earlier bookmarks, is certainly fitting for the rest of the game. (And I would argue that "Ashkenazi" is a more useful moniker for those Jews than "Hebrew" is, since "Hebrew" culture diverged into multiple branches when Jews dispersed throughout the Roman empire and because the European pre-Ashkenazi Jewish culture only exists in two game bookmarks.)
Thanks!

Oh, and also: why did the Samia empire need to be removed?

Thank you for your support. I agree that the current split of Israelite cultures is far from ideal. But adding another culture would be outside the rules I imposed by myself for this mod: that is, to avoid changes relative to vanilla that would not come through titles history and the de jure structure (including decisions and events). Adding another culture, however cosmetic such a change would largely be, falls into that category. At the moment, renaming the Ashkenazi "Hebrew" sounds like the best compromise to me. A similar issue is the failure, on vanilla's side, to distinguish between the Pictish, Scottish Gaelic and Anglo-Norman Scottish rulers (and possibly Lowland Scots too). I have renamed the Irish "Gaelic" but that is not fully satisfying, because in the history files all Scottish rulers who are not Pictish belong to the generic "Scottish" culture - still it kind of works for earlier bookmarks when history is "undefined". To add another culture there would be a hell of a job in terms of manipulation of history files, and while for Jewish characters it would be much easier, it is not something I foresee big returns from. Maybe at the end of the game's (and the mod's) development cycle I could add "modules" that do things such as the one you suggest, but this is no promise.

As for Samia, I was never happy with that empire in the first place. Among the other things, it made the two empires of Russia and Scandinavia too small (Scandinavia was too easily created by the AI), and it itself was too small. The need to add the kingdom of Lapland/Sapmi only made things worse. So I decided to go back to a setup closer to Vanilla (with the difference that Perm now falls under Tartaria but without the two western duchies, which are under Rus now); however I really liked the color and flag of the "Empire of Pohjola" while at the same time I disliked those from vanilla Lapland, so I swapped them and in a sense Samia can still be created by the player as a custom empire with the same appearance (it would be odd to see it created by the AI anyways).

P.S. I think that the best change in the current version is the revised de jure setup for Neustria and Austrasia in the 769 start. Not only it is more historical in terms of de jure borders, but it also improves gameplay by making Frisia smaller and more realistic, Charlemagne slightly stronger, but unable now to usurp his brother's title following normal rules (with the result of breaking apart the Frankish Empire in a non-historical way). In the next update I plan to make the names and flags for both kingdoms "static", that is not changeable by event should the Karlings lose control of them. That means no "kingdom of France" in 769 games, but that is not much of a deal should Charlemagne or someone else succeed in creating Francia, and it would still be a nice "alternate history" kind of thing. Edit: I am checking it, this feature should be already present! I must have introduced it when Horse Lords came out and then forgot about it!

 

[damanamana]

Thank you for your support. I agree that the current split of Israelite cultures is far from ideal. But adding another culture would be outside the rules I imposed by myself for this mod: that is, to avoid changes relative to vanilla that would not come through titles history and the de jure structure (including decisions and events). Adding another culture, however cosmetic such a change would largely be, falls into that category. At the moment, renaming the Ashkenazi "Hebrew" sounds like the best compromise to me. A similar issue is the failure, on vanilla's side, to distinguish between the Pictish, Scottish Gaelic and Anglo-Norman Scottish rulers (and possibly Lowland Scots too). I have renamed the Irish "Gaelic" but that is not fully satisfying, because in the history files all Scottish rulers who are not Pictish belong to the generic "Scottish" culture - still it kind of works for earlier bookmarks when history is "undefined". To add another culture there would be a hell of a job in terms of manipulation of history files, and while for Jewish characters it would be much easier, it is not something I foresee big returns from. Maybe at the end of the game's (and the mod's) development cycle I could add "modules" that do things such as the one you suggest, but this is no promise.

I hear what you're saying, and while I'm not entirely thrilled I understand. Can you instead change the Jewish cultures to be "Europeanized" and "Arabized" (or "Mustarabi") instead? Ashkenazim and Sephardim weren't as distinct from each other as they both were from Mizrahim.
Why would you need to manipulate the history files? That doesn't matter for the gameplay itself. If doing that gets in the way of what you actually want to do then don't bother.
I'm going to learn how to mod over the summer, too. I don't have the time right now. I want to do a bunch of cultural changes, especially melting pot events.

As for Samia, I was never happy with that empire in the first place. Among the other things, it made the two empires of Russia and Scandinavia too small (Scandinavia was too easily created by the AI), and it itself was too small. The need to add the kingdom of Lapland/Sapmi only made things worse. So I decided to go back to a setup closer to Vanilla (with the difference that Perm now falls under Tartaria but without the two western duchies, which are under Rus now); however I really liked the color and flag of the "Empire of Pohjola" while at the same time I disliked those from vanilla Lapland, so I swapped them and in a sense Samia can still be created by the player as a custom empire with the same appearance (it would be odd to see it created by the AI anyways).

I understand! Makes sense.

P.S. I think that the best change in the current version is the revised de jure setup for Neustria and Austrasia in the 769 start. Not only it is more historical in terms of de jure borders, but it also improves gameplay by making Frisia smaller and more realistic, Charlemagne slightly stronger, but unable now to usurp his brother's title following normal rules (with the result of breaking apart the Frankish Empire in a non-historical way). In the next update I plan to make the names and flags for both kingdoms "static", that is not changeable by event should the Karlings lose control of them. That means no "kingdom of France" in 769 games, but that is not much of a deal should Charlemagne or someone else succeed in creating Francia, and it would still be a nice "alternate history" kind of thing.

How do you make a title "static"?

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I hear what you're saying, and while I'm not entirely thrilled I understand. Can you instead change the Jewish cultures to be "Europeanized" and "Arabized" (or "Mustarabi") instead? Ashkenazim and Sephardim weren't as distinct from each other as they both were from Mizrahim.
Why would you need to manipulate the history files? That doesn't matter for the gameplay itself. If doing that gets in the way of what you actually want to do then don't bother.
I'm going to learn how to mod over the summer, too. I don't have the time right now. I want to do a bunch of cultural changes, especially melting pot events.

What's the suggestion exactly? I am fine with the "Hebrew" name for the moment. Manipulating history files is necessary when you create a new culture and want all appropriate characters to display that culture in the game. This is necessary, for example, if you create a new "Scottish Gaelic" culture (but also, say, if you create a "Khazar Jewish" one).

How do you make a title "static"?

I mean avoiding name and flag changes for that title, say by event. To do so, for titles such as the kingdoms of France and Lotharingia, you need to manipulate the "flags" in their history files.

Good luck with learning modding! It's not difficult (although I never learned proper "map" modding myself) and there are excellent starting guides around!

 

[damanamana]

What's the suggestion exactly? I am fine with the "Hebrew" name for the moment. Manipulating history files is necessary when you create a new culture and want all appropriate characters to display that culture in the game. This is necessary, for example, if you create a new "Scottish Gaelic" culture (but also, say, if you create a "Khazar Jewish" one).

The suggestion is that, instead of the Israelite cultures being divided into "Sephardi" and "Hebrew", they be divided along "Europeanized" and "Arabized" lines. So the two cultures would be "Mizrahi" (or "Mustarabi" which basically means "Arabized") and a European name (Frakishized? Germanized? I dunno). This is because Jews in the western Mediterranean (the Ashkenazim and Sephardim) were more or less one community before basically 1100, as opposed to Jews in the eastern Mediterranean (the Mizrahim).

I mean avoiding name and flag changes for that title, say by event. To do so, for titles such as the kingdoms of France and Lotharingia, you need to manipulate the "flags" in their history files.

Good luck with learning modding! It's not difficult (although I never learned proper "map" modding myself) and there are excellent starting guides around!

Oh neat. Thanks!

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

The suggestion is that, instead of the Israelite cultures being divided into "Sephardi" and "Hebrew", they be divided along "Europeanized" and "Arabized" lines. So the two cultures would be "Mizrahi" (or "Mustarabi" which basically means "Arabized") and a European name (Frakishized? Germanized? I dunno). This is because Jews in the western Mediterranean (the Ashkenazim and Sephardim) were more or less one community before basically 1100, as opposed to Jews in the eastern Mediterranean (the Mizrahim).

I agree that this is a better distinction, but that means modifying - history files aside - also the events by which Israelite characters spawn. Currently, Ashkenazi/Hebrew characters spawn everywhere but in e_spain, while Sephardi characters spawn in e_spain at an increased rate (4x IIRC). Changing that would be also too much of a gameplay intervention under the modding philosophy of "In Novo Iure".

The way I see this is that the devs meant to give some sort of "advantage" to Iberic realms (Andalusia and the various Christian kingdoms) when it comes to availability of Jewish characters - for loans and the like. This should be somehow historically accurate. I don't want to modify this, hence I see Hebrew vs. Sephardi as the best dichotomy. Unless you can suggest something that is better than this but still not very intrusive? For example, I could modify the events so that the same culture has different spawning rates in different areas of the map. Thus, the European/Western branch of the Israelite people would still spawn at different rates in e_spain vs. the other empires where they belong, while the "other" (say, Mizrahi) branch spawn everywhere else. I could do this, but it must be a convincing distinction! Also I should check that it does not intrude the history files.

Edit: I'm checking things. Actually I was wrong. In vanilla, Ashkenazi characters spawn with 1100 MTTH, while Sephardi characters spawn with 750 MTTH which is less than 1.5x, but still a substantial difference (which makes sense). Also, there seem to be no pre-set Ashkenazi characters at any start date, which I did not think to be the case, there are only some Sephardi - this makes things easier. However, I realize that modifying the spawning events to allow for different MTTH across different empires would be a hell of a job and might result in bugs. So, I must be really convinced about a proposed new distinction to go down that route. The proposed distinction should also be consistent with the location of the Sephardi characters currently in game.

 

[damanamana]

I agree that this is a better distinction, but that means modifying - history files aside - also the events by which Israelite characters spawn. Currently, Ashkenazi/Hebrew characters spawn everywhere but in e_spain, while Sephardi characters spawn in e_spain at an increased rate (4x IIRC). Changing that would be also too much of a gameplay intervention under the modding philosophy of "In Novo Iure".

I understand and respect your modding philosophy.

The way I see this is that the devs meant to give some sort of "advantage" to Iberic realms (Andalusia and the various Christian kingdoms) when it comes to availability of Jewish characters - for loans and the like. This should be somehow historically accurate. I don't want to modify this, hence I see Hebrew vs. Sephardi as the best dichotomy. Unless you can suggest something that is better than this but still not very intrusive? For example, I could modify the events so that the same culture has different spawning rates in different areas of the map. Thus, the European/Western branch of the Israelite people would still spawn at different rates in e_spain vs. the other empires where they belong, while the "other" (say, Mizrahi) branch spawn everywhere else. I could do this, but it must be a convincing distinction! Also I should check that it does not intrude the history files.

I think that's a wonderful idea. Having European/Western Jews spawn more frequently in Iberia than the rest of Europe, while Mizrahi/Arabized Jews spawn everywhere outside of Europe, is exactly what I would have suggested. I don't believe that this would require changing the history files either.
But then again, I'm not much of a modder. Whatever you think is best for your mod

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Actually, thinking more about it, reverting the Hebrew to "Ashkenazi" and adding a third "Mizrahi" (and perhaps - going further down the route - a fourth, "Romaniote") is perhaps an even less intrusive solution, given that there are no Ashkenazi characters in the history files at the moment. Again, I should check that current Sephardi characters are all placed in Spain, but still. The gameplay consequence I anticipate is a slight opinion malus between Israelite characters of different splitted cultures, but one can also see this as a realistic feature of sort. Still, adding cultures is against my approach to this mod, but I recognize that the devs have been a little bit lazy here. I will think even more about it.

 

[damanamana]

Actually, thinking more about it, reverting the Hebrew to "Ashkenazi" and adding a third "Mizrahi" (and perhaps - going further down the route - a fourth, "Romaniote") is perhaps an even less intrusive solution, given that there are no Ashkenazi characters in the history files at the moment. Again, I should check that current Sephardi characters are all placed in Spain, but still. The gameplay consequence I anticipate is a slight opinion malus between Israelite characters of different splitted cultures, but one can also see this as a realistic feature of sort. Still, adding cultures is against my approach to this mod, but I recognize that the devs have been a little bit lazy here. I will think even more about it.

Ok! Great! Thank you! And yes, the opinion malus between different Israelite cultures is certainly true to life.
I think that mildly editing the Jewish courtier events to accommodate the new cultures would work. I just read through the event modding wiki page and think that I can put together additional SoA courtier events for you, if you're interested.
I'm thinking:

• culture = sephardi Jews could appear only in Iberia but at higher rates (MTTH 750 months instead of MTTH 1100)
• culture = mizrahi Jews could appear in North Africa, Arabia, and Persia
• culture = ashkenazi Jews could appear everywhere else

To be honest, I don't know if adding Romaniote Jews as a distinct group fits with your stated mod philosophy. Romaniote Jews (and Beta Israel, and Mountain Jews, and Bukharian Jews, and Bene Israel, etc) might not be large enough a share of the Jewish people to each deserve their own Israelite culture groups. But again, that's totally your own decision! Your mod, your mod philosophy, your mod decisions!