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Sultan Suleiman

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Shhh, you're giving them ideas. They already made a Manchu princess who never commanded a force larger than a regiment of mounted militia, into a skill 3 army group commander just because of her gender.

This. When they expanded her role in history to bump the total percentage of female generals from .01 to .02, I had to find the nearest YWCA and tell them to stay the hell out of my video games. Honestly, women: they lead a few militiamen, score records for sniping on the eastern front, and work in a few thousand factories to keep the war effort afloat, and they think they can just waltz into our public awareness like they owned a pair of testicles.

Although...

...did anyone know that the first leader of the first Fascist party in Britain was a woman?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotha_Lintorn-Orman

A woman leading the fascist party of Britian? Lintorn-Orman? Is that some regional spelling of Thatcher? Interesting, though. Thanks, Doom Juan! I'll have to check that out.

I'm ready to "sell" them ideas for focus paths for ressurection of Lenin...

Simpsons did it.

It won't get much worse than return of the Tzar, I sure, we will see one day, or fascist takeover in the state, where above 50% of NKVD and GPU personel were jews (changed after NKVD purge of 1938-1939).

Yeah, Nazism in Russia. Heh. Ridiculous. *watches documentary on modern Russia* Oh. Well, Stalin's rule was strong. Luckily, Russia didn't have a history of authoritarian regimes being overthrown by sectarian violence.

Worst thing with current HOI4 alt-history is that it is not working. Not as whole undivided system. Most states exist in some sort of vacuum, doing retarded unactual things that could work but in different circumstances. But as each focus path is the one, you can't leave and have to continue taking, AI driven only by focuses continues to go to nowhere.

I mean, I like EU4 a lot. Even despite it was turned to be more casual (let's name it AI friendly) even before I started to play it and I personally hate the fact that I'm not allowed to pass the end date in Ironman and continue or turn on random lucky nations or none at all. I like that i can do weird stuff and the world will respond. This is the diplomacy, I like, just as international politics in general.

This is a valid point. To be honest, although I'm looking forward to the new focus trees, I wouldn't mind them taking a break from designing new ones just to make what they have so far gel a bit better. It's tough because they can't simply shut out people who haven't bought every expansion yet.

Regarding diplomacy, though, despite the fact I'm in favor alternate history, I don't think EU or Victoria's system would work with HOI. There needs to be some script, even an alternative one. I once had a game of Victoria where all eight Great Powers got into a single war the first year. That's great fun in Victoria, not so much in HOI.
 
Last edited:

CrazyZombie

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Yeah, Nazism in Russia. Heh. Ridiculous. *watches documentary on modern Russia* Oh. Well, Stalin's rule was strong. Luckily, Russia didn't have a history of authoritarian regimes being overthrown by sectarian violence.
You realise that modern post-Cold war "Weimar" Russia and Interbellum Soviet Union are as much common as todays Germany and Third Reich back then?
 

Gefallener_Held

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Regarding the "it's a business" category of arguments:

In a hypothetical situation where Paradox stated before any DLC released that their content policy would be to work on improving historical flavor and leave alt history to modders, how many fewer people would buy the game and DLC? So few that the game would no longer be a success?

Perhaps it's a personal failing that I put games in the same category of entertainment as art, so I get chafed by what I see as decisions made for commercialism's sake.
The HOI series always did well. This alt history stuff is off brand. Again, give us a proficient World War II game FIRST.
 

Secret Master

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Weather. The invasion of France and the Low Countries was delayed by over 6 months because of bad weather. Implement realistic weather in the game and bam, you have your Phony War.

No, because then you'd have players rescheduling the war on Poland so they can avoid the bad weather in France and attack immediately.

And then I'd have to listen to "Players use exploits to avoid Phony War" posts on the forum.

You could make France stronger overall, add in more severe weather, and make it harder to defeat Poland without taking more losses, but then we'd have even more posts in the forum from people who can't defeat France.

I really don't see a way Paradox wins in this situation.
 

Gefallener_Held

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You misunderstood me, as that's my point; I'd rather leave alt history to the modding community so that the focus of Paradox can be historical content.
I can see that reading of your comment. I thought you were positing that it as is ir would somehow not be economially viable. I imagine people are rightly putting the game down. I would hope this stuff is not enough to get people interested in again but alas the numbers do not seem to be in our favor.
 

Trevok

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No, because then you'd have players rescheduling the war on Poland so they can avoid the bad weather in France and attack immediately.

And then I'd have to listen to "Players use exploits to avoid Phony War" posts on the forum.

You could make France stronger overall, add in more severe weather, and make it harder to defeat Poland without taking more losses, but then we'd have even more posts in the forum from people who can't defeat France.

I really don't see a way Paradox wins in this situation.
Why not have France stronger but gets a negative buff against Germany like Japan has for China? I mean that should not be too hard. It could be a focus called I Am Now Prepared that gets rid of this nerf to France, but France has to be at War with Germany for a certain amount of time. Phoney War can atleast be better where Germany takes Denmark and Norway before they take benelux.
 

Gefallener_Held

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I wish to reiterate that the naval dynamic does make a game unplayable, anyway you slice it. Naal warfare were al integral prats of thewar effort of UK, US, and Japan. The naval part of the game is completely unsatisfactory for many reasons, including:

-battles that last weeks
-only battleships being of any value
- carrier groups broken.
-submarine warfare useless. And yes, just because a submarine can sink a convoy does nto change this for reasons argued at length.

Because of these and other flaws, the Battle in the Atlantic, War in the Pacifc are both off the table.
 

Iskulya

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I don't understand why people keep whining about the Holy Roman Empire thing. The circumstances that has to happen to even have the POSSIBILITY of restoring the HRE are so rare I've actually never seen them happen in even a dozen games as the Kaiserreich up to the point where I would have gotten the option. The Hindenburg has to not crash AND the Netherlands must refuse to repatriate Wilhelm II.

I was a little annoyed when they revealed reforming the HRE would have been doable, but after the expansion actually was released I saw that it's just a really minor Easter egg that isn't even going to be possible in the vast majority of Revive the Kaiserreich games it stopped being anything worth worrying about.

That aside

I remember seeing the thread where the devs brought up the telemetry, and it was mentioned that Oppose Hitler is selected more than 80% of the time by players, yet Gefallener keeps raving as if the alternate history stuff was demanding by only an insignificant, vocal minority. In this case we see the opposite is true: all the raving against alternate-history actually just represents a very a vocal minority of players on the forum.

Personally, I like the alternate history stuff, and so does everybody else I play with. Not a single one of us is under the delusion that any of those things are even remotely historical. It all comes down to the gameplay. The alternate history makes for different, fun scenarios. Though to ensure the fun part I've often had to fiddle with the console to ensure certain countries go down certain routes so there is a guarantee challenge instead of a massive allied beatdown or something like that.

We want these things because the historical scenario gets very boring, though I think the main reason the historical scenario gets so boring is that with the way the game mechanics and the AI are, the war is usually over by the end of 1941 or 1942.

There's also something to be said for starting up a game, and not really knowing or being able to predict what other countries will do. For myself and the people I play with, this is the main draw of Kaiserreich, not its silly and absurd ideological wankery and fantasizing. If I'm playing as Canada, will the dominionists win in South Africa? Will Australasia fall to anarchism? Will the French anarchists curb stomp the Germans in a few weeks? None of these things can be predicted, and the overall strategy has to change wildly depending on how these unpredictable things play out. Of course, things are usually at their most fun when the hoped for outcome that you have zero control over fails to occur.

Personally I've never actually done a Nazi Germany play through a single time in over 1,000 hours played. Initially it was because when I started playing managing Germany against the rest of the world just seemed too difficult a task as a novice. Now it's because the all-or-nothing peace system makes it too obnoxious to build up a major fleet and invade the United States to end the war, especially given late game lag.

I can sympathize with paradox's dilemma. As more mechanics are added, more provinces, etc, it gets exponentially harder to fine tune the game so that something resembling a historical course can be seen. This was much easier in the older games because of how much simpler they were(barring HoI 3, which arguably is much more of a cluster**** than this game). HoI 2 had how many provinces? It is an impossible, or nearly impossible task. Clearly they are trying, I think the addition of fuel is a good step in that direction, but realistically it is actually pretty foolish to believe that a game with this level of complexity could be tuned for historical outcomes with systematic railroading when so much is left to the AI.
 

Gefallener_Held

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As more mechanics are added, more provinces, etc, it gets exponentially harder to fine tune the game so that something resembling a historical course can be seen. This was much easier in the older games because of how much simpler they were(barring HoI 3, which arguably is much more of a cluster**** than this game)

One reason why the althistory stuff is not a good idea. The game is not nearly optimized for the base scenario. Adding many numbers of different alternatives will only compound this.
 

Ironside121

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People seem to have no problem with defying what historically happened when they play crusader kings,europa universalis and Victoria.I fail to see why it's such a big deal to be able to do so in this game as well.As long as paradox gives their players the resources to run a historical ww2 game then there is no real problem with them adding some alternate history options on top of that.In fact I look forward to a Comintern expansion.Alternate history paths for Russia could be quite interesting

I must just say- those games are COMPELTELY different- where any number of things could change the entire course of history over the periods those games are played in.

HoI4 is based primarily on a single war, where all those huge different outcomes that happen in other PDX games, do not have the time to happen, or the logic behind them. Many things were set in stone by this point too.

Not to mention, CK2, really? We have NO control over the history in that game, especially when it comes to a random king dying and someone instantly becoming a super power. Things like that were huge, and are huge in CK2- and RNG steps in there.

HoI4 has Focus Trees, guiding a nation down their path- it's completely incomparable to other PDX games.

Coming from someone neutral on alt-history- btw.
 

hkrommel

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We want these things because the historical scenario gets very boring

This is the chief problem and what worries me about this whole thing. I'm concerned that, since sales seem to be propped up by meme-y alternate history, Paradox will focus too much on that and ultimately fail to deliver on a compelling underlying game. WWII should not be boring, particularly since it's inevitably going to go differently when the player is involved. The problem is that there's no compelling narrative, no soul to it, and the mechanics just don't deliver. The most boring part of the game for me is once the fighting actually starts, that's not how it should be.
 

Gefallener_Held

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This is the chief problem and what worries me about this whole thing. I'm concerned that, since sales seem to be propped up by meme-y alternate history, Paradox will focus too much on that and ultimately fail to deliver on a compelling underlying game. WWII should not be boring, particularly since it's inevitably going to go differently when the player is involved. The problem is that there's no compelling narrative, no soul to it, and the mechanics just don't deliver. The most boring part of the game for me is once the fighting actually starts, that's not how it should be.
TITCR.
 

Secret Master

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WWII should not be boring, particularly since it's inevitably going to go differently when the player is involved.

I really think this is the fault of the AI, though.

Yeah, some of the mechanics are goofy at times. I'm not really satisfied with Vichy and Case Anton, for example (and I've never really liked Vichy in any HOI). I think synthetic plants are both overpowered and pointlessly combined into one thing when they should be separate. And I think some general trait, general staff, and division composition combinations are bordering on Monty Python (CAV/SPART formations, for example).

But when you say the war is boring and has no soul, I don't see that as coming from the mechanics. It's because the AI, while better, is not good enough to give a human a compelling game. Even as I say this, I know there are plenty of players who turn the difficulty down with the new lower difficulties, but for old grognards, having Rommel drive from Kiel to Paris in 28 days is considered a lackluster performance against the AI. (Someone in this community posted a guide on breaking the Maginot Line in a few days and with only 5,000 casualties, so draw your own conclusions).

This is really thrown into relief by the MP group I play with. We've had some games where things were not as exciting (like the time I lost as the Soviets when Germany invaded in 1940 with a bunch of LARM and basically drove to Moscow), but we've had some damn fun games that were real nail biters. I will share my favorite story to illustrate how the game is far more compelling when your opponents are at your level of competence.

It is late 1942. The Italians have been pushed out of Libya, Sicily is occupied, and southern Italy (all the way to Rome) is occupied as well. The German army is stuck at the Riga-Kiev river line, not having made it to Vitebsk or Smolensk, despite brutal fighting in the gap. Supply problems for Germany mean that even if Germany wanted to send more troops to the eastern front, she can't. The good news is that Franco joined the Axis, so Gibraltar is held by the Axis, closing that end of the Mediterranean. The war is at a stalemate, and the Axis position will continue to worsen as the US continues to expand her economy.

So, I decide to break the stalemate. I can't apply more pressure to the Soviets, and I can't liberate Rome through direct action due to the number of US and British divisions sitting in the mountains of Italy. But I notice that the Allies are really thin in Casablanca and Algeria. And the Allies are not patrolling the Atlantic coast of Morocco because they chased away my submarines. That leads Germany and Italy to plan a joint operation.

Italy, with some German lend-lease, launches an Axis Torch landing in Morocco. While this is going on, Guderian is given command of a panzer army, and invades Turkey. The goal is that the Axis Torch landing will be a distraction that causes the Allies to send reinforcements west before they realize that Germany will get across the straits near Istanbul.

Germany makes provisions to station forces in eastern Turkey to stall an obvious Soviet reprisal, but Guderian's tanks make a mad dash through Turkey to the Suez with little resistance. Meanwhile, it turns out the Allies were stretched even thinner than the Axis thought: aside from meager resistance in Casablanca, the Italians drive from Casablanca to Tunis with barely any opposition. The distraction turned into a serious offensive that threatened to undermine the entire Allied position.

Long story short: Guderian reaches the Suez, but doesn't get across. This isn't a problem, though, because the Germans control the east bank of the Suez, sealing it. The Italians eventually overextend and get destroyed, but it takes months. And best of all, the Allied forces in Italy abandon their positions and retreat to Sicily; they can't draw supply anymore with both Gibraltar and the Suez closed. And the Soviets are forced to shift an entire panzer army of their own to the Caucuses because now the Germans are in eastern Anatolia. Rome is saved, Italy is in a far more secure position, and the Allies are still committed to holding Egypt and Sicily, so they can't funnel those troops to a possible Overlord, or German forces will seize Cairo.

We still lost the war in the end (IIRC, the Luftwaffe finally died a horrible death as the Allies bombed the synthetic plants, leaving me bereft of air cover when Overlord started backed up by a nuclear strike on Germany), but it was great fun. You never see a reversal like that with a semi-competent human versus the AI. A human UK or USA would have finished off Italy and marched to Berlin via Vienna against an AI. But against real opponents, with rules that you can live with, there's feints, unexpected actions, psychological warfare, gambits, and exploitation of mistakes (like the one time the British player decided to leave a single division in the British Isles in 1940, resulting in a game where the US spent most of its time defending California, Utah, and New Mexico after the Italians and Japanese met up in Delhi).
 

EltharionDrax

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This is the chief problem and what worries me about this whole thing. I'm concerned that, since sales seem to be propped up by meme-y alternate history, Paradox will focus too much on that and ultimately fail to deliver on a compelling underlying game. WWII should not be boring, particularly since it's inevitably going to go differently when the player is involved. The problem is that there's no compelling narrative, no soul to it, and the mechanics just don't deliver. The most boring part of the game for me is once the fighting actually starts, that's not how it should be.

In a certain way, the alt-history-paths are a "quick-fix" to maintain player interest in the game by adding content to early/mid-parts of the game, because more long-term/late-game content takes longer to develop. To put it in a rather blunt manner, because pre-war phase is shallow, you Speed 5 through it, and once the war starts, the AI struggles to keep up with the player, so players entertain themselves by seeing how many knots they can tie history into once they reach certain level of experience (I'm guessing).

I do hope that more long-term/late-game content is being planned for the game, just like fuel. The AI strategies Bratyn hints at in the latest DD-thread is another welcome example of this, making the game-world more alive and responsive, thus giving your NF-decisions more weight, rather than simply being rails on which nations simply chug along until two cross and a crash occurs. Certainly more tools for domestic political decision-making would spice up the pre-war phase and a less binary approach to certain things like peace-deals (it's either total war or unconditional surrender) would help in this, but I realize these (and other issues mentioned earlier) are problems that require long-term solutions so this is a not a call to "FIX AI NAO!".
 

JonS

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the althistory stuff is not a good idea.
This is kind of a silly position to take - if you aren't invading Normandy on 6th June, sinking the Zuikaku at 14:14 on the 24th of October 1944, and seeing Bill Slim go down with Malaria in mid-1945, then you are playing an alt-historical game. The whole point of this game is to create an alternate history. If you want complete historical fidelity, go watch World at War. GSGs should present plausible conundrums, prompt activity with credible stimuli, control with plausible constraints, and offer or allow plausible resolutions. After that it's up to the player. The really eclectic paths in HOI - like restoring the HRE - are vanishingly unlikely to happen, so most players won't ever see it ... but it could happen. The more narrowly avoided paths happen with greater frequency because they were more likely to occur. That is all as it should be in a game like this.
 

a_sophist

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This is kind of a silly position to take - if you aren't invading Normandy on 6th June, sinking the Zuikaku at 14:14 on the 24th of October 1944, and seeing Bill Slim go down with Malaria in mid-1945, then you are playing an alt-historical game. The whole point of this game is to create an alternate history. If you want complete historical fidelity, go watch World at War.

Quoting myself from the other day:
This is a common argument, and I don't know why. It's not as if the game either needs to be a documentary or complete anarchy, the question is what degree of player freedom is desirable. Clearly, for a great many people it's "as much as possible without literally copying EU IV mechanics" rather than the more modest "how can I retool Germany's industry and strategic focuses to secure a fascist Europe."




GSGs should present plausible conundrums, prompt activity with credible stimuli, control with plausible constraints, and offer or allow plausible resolutions. After that it's up to the player. The really eclectic paths in HOI - like restoring the HRE - are vanishingly unlikely to happen, so most players won't ever see it ... but it could happen. The more narrowly avoided paths happen with greater frequency because they were more likely to occur. That is all as it should be in a game like this.

Plausible is often used in the numerous discussions on this issue, and it's almost always synonymous with conceivable, i.e. if someone somewhere can think it, it's plausible. That's an acceptable definition assuming that there are infinite resources working infinitely quickly to realize the scenarios, but since that's not possible there needs to at least be some sequencing. In a game ostensibly about World War II it's nuts that I have multiple formable nation options and turn Japan communist or Germany monarchist before I can model things like Pearl Harbor or the Italian Social Republic after Italy's capitulation or a Spanish Civil War that treats the Republicans like more than a Stalinist puppet state to name a few significant examples.
 

Egodeus

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Just, no. Some alt-history scenarios are plausible. But many more are implausible. Others are ludicrous. Reforming the HRE? General Mackensen leading a coup. Just, NO.

Above and beyond, by focusing on these Paradox is putting priority on these trotchkes over improving the base world war II game. Naval combat is still a miss. The introduction of fuel has taken a back seat to this nonsense.

Introduce alt history scenarios AFTER you fix the game, not before.

One thing you forget here (as I think quite many others who oppose the alt-histories on these grounds) is that not all developers are created the same.

The alt-histories are created by content-creators, who are different people from the ones modifying mechanics and developing the AI. Admittedly, some of the alt-histories might require minor additions or modifications to the engine or coding, but they are really minor, so the question is what would you rather those content-creators start doing instead of new and improved focus trees and alternate histories? Remember that they are not ones that you could throw at fixing the naval combat, nor improve the AI, so what would you have them do?