In defence of the AI....
- Thread starter Axe99
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Yep Germany didn't show much interest on me till now strangely enough may be it was my sprank new forts 
. Spain has just joined the axis, looks like I leave Germany alone for the time being and go teach Franco some good old democracy.
. Spain has just joined the axis, looks like I leave Germany alone for the time being and go teach Franco some good old democracy. 
Have you tried the 'Total War' sub mod? That's what I plan to do for my next Bice gameAdd: HOI4 with BICE is cool too were it not for the unit planner issues by times
Actually Id like to get deeper into BICE first. Still loads of fun already with BICE.
PS: I didnt like BICE mod in HOI3, yet here its looking good from overall behaviour and options as well as mechanics.
That's the thing, go with what is more fun. I have a cycle: Big patch sends me to vanilla Germany to see if the East Front got any my challenging. Then mods that helps the AI and challenge.
I enjoyed Bice emensly, but weighed that I wanted AI challenge more so. But then I was told about Total War
How is it? AI make good tech, production and template choices?
Ohh am all in to that, yet there are shortcommings of vanilla HOI4 which carry over to HOIx + modx. Thats the point where I am usuall quite annoyed
Apart from that I sometimes like to do achievements, but somehow... somehow its - in case of the challenging ones - more about finding loopholes or exploits to get the achievement. Prime example India taking UK mainland without DLC...
It's the best challenge/balanced mod I've found so far. Few less equipment techs than BICE, (making it easier for production/templates/research for the AI), but still a lot more depth than Vanilla.
It's pretty sad that the German AI being a moderate challenge to a France player in a WW2 game is seen as an acceptable benchmark.
Axe, there is very few times I disagree with what you say or do, however..... Why for the love of all that's holy aren't you using the strategic view adjustments mod! That air warfare screen
It's definitely on my list (and I'm well aware that @Chondrite knows his stuff and then some, so I'm very much looking forward to it) - just a time thing. I'm probably going to take years to get the naval mod where I want it, but when I do, I'll integrate it with whatever seems best at the time. Like you I have a cycle - so each patch there's a few vanilla games, and then a few naval mod games, then a few 'other mods' games, then back to the naval mod. Definitely think you're making a good suggestion here
.Add: HOI4 with BICE is cool too were it not for the unit planner issues by times
BICE is also a very good suggestion - I've given that one go-round, but was a while ago now.
Yep Germany didn't show much interest on me till now strangely enough may be it was my sprank new forts
The forts will do it - if you fort up the Belgian frontier, sadly, Germany struggles. Have fun spreading the good word in Spain
.Sorry - I wasn't trying to argue that it was an acceptable benchmark (if you read my posts at least, you'll see I note other issues with the AI that I'm sure we all hope are fixed). I was more trying to point out that, at least from what I could see, there'd been a marked improvement. If the AI has enough troops to avoid the dreaded reshuffle, they can push and push hard on a front, makes breakthroughs and encirclements (better than anything I've seen in HoI3) and cause trouble. The nature of the game I was playing (France again, after a break between patches) highlighted it well as on historical mode there's less divergence so it's an easier test.
As we all know, give them a longer front the unit shuffle diverts many troops away from the action, and there are also issues concentrating force at the right location and needlessly attacking strongpoints when they could go around, templates and production management. This thread is in no way suggesting we don't want the devs to whip these into shape - just pointing out that in the right circumstances, the AI does things better than it did previously (and in the case of it breaking through my lines, dead-set well)
.Axe, there is very few times I disagree with what you say or do, however..... Why for the love of all that's holy aren't you using the strategic view adjustments mod! That air warfare screen
Because I can never get enough of glaring colours?
. Actually, I 'usually' run with better terrain (also switched off here), and keep forgetting to subscribe to the strategic view adjustments mod, but in all the switching of mods on and off, I'll forget to switch some back on again. Appreciate the reminder, am off to subscribe now (and then probably forget to switch on.....)Edit: And it's another Chondrite mod, which is another reason to pay attention to it
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. If the AI has enough troops to avoid the dreaded reshuffle, they can push and push hard on a front, makes breakthroughs and encirclements (better than anything I've seen in HoI3) and cause trouble. The nature of the game I was playing (France again, after a break between patches) highlighted it well as on historical mode there's less divergence so it's an easier test.
As we all know, give them a longer front the unit shuffle diverts many troops away from the action, and there are also issues concentrating force at the right location and needlessly attacking strongpoints when they could go around, templates and production management. This thread is in no way suggesting we don't want the devs to whip these into shape - just pointing out that in the right circumstances, the AI does things better than it did previously (and in the case of it breaking through my lines, dead-set well)
Once additional fronts open eg. Denmark, micro invasions, the German AI starts to shuffle again, leading to the German/Netherlands front moving back and forth between Amsterdam and Wilhelmshaven. Assuming you kept Netherlands alive OFC.
The main reason the OP may have gotten caught out by AI Germany is that in the current game, Germany attacks the low countries one at a time in September/October 1939 rather than declaring all three at once in 1940 like it did historically.
This gives the France player 8 months less to crank out equipment with laws/policies on a war footing. It also creates a huge problem if Germany attacks Netherlands while still at peace with Belgium - you are forced to send your reinforcements by the sea, which takes time to disembark etc. which may mean the Germans can capture a bridgehead over the Rhine before your defenders can arrive. If the Germans get across the Rhine in the Netherlands, they then have an easy drive across the flat plains over the Belgian border straight into Brussels then the Pas de Calais, bypassing the Ardennes, the Meuse, the forts of Namur etc.
Assuming you didn't just build level 10 forts , you need to keep the advantage of the river for 9-12months. After that, you can see the effect of the reckless attacks and poor production ai on Germany . Divisions at half strength, my light armour divisions driving straight through and overrunning their medium panzers etc (probably because they don't actually contain any Panzers)
Aye, you're quite right - I gave it a second game today, same situation but I pushed hard for a 'peak defence against Germany in late '39' instead of a more historical French play, and while Germany pushed hard early, and got Lille and a couple of other provinces in the north (and Strasbourgh, while I had my back turned
), so far I'm holding them, and they've DoW'd Denmark and they're getting hit by the shuffle. I've still had to micro heavily (I micro'd Strasbourg pretty hard as well, just not hard enough ), and they almost broke through on a few occasions, but I held them.More importantly, for 120K losses m'self, Germany and Italy together are looking closer to 1.5 million. If the good Steelvolt can (or if we're lucky, has) better teach Germany and Italy not to throw men and equipment away on horrible assaults when there are alternatives, it would have been a very different story. It was still a very enjoyable game, and a good challenge, but from here on in I expect the main challenge to be taking on the USSR when they come through Germany in 12-18 months or so.
Wait, France has the Maginot lines built, in game. Oh that's why, I lost most of my troops, when I attacked France in the Maginot Line and the UK attacked me from behind with a naval invasion at Hamburg recently.
Aye, if you're playing as Germany, much better to smash through Belgium/Luxembourg, than a line of level 10 forts (most of which are on hills, mountains or urban areas, some across rivers to boot!) Be sure to get air superiority and have a healthy number of CAS and/or TAC supporting you as well
.Aye, if you're playing as Germany, much better to smash through Belgium/Luxembourg, than a line of level 10 forts (most of which are on hills, mountains or urban areas, some across rivers to boot!) Be sure to get air superiority and have a healthy number of CAS and/or TAC supporting you as well
These days, when i play as Germany, I do not attack the low countries - AI Italy can take out AI France all by itself, the French AI is so bad at managing the southern front. Obviously if you help them it goes faster. Best to stay on good terms with Netherlands and Belgium, conquering their homeland just gives you more Steel and Aluminum that you already have. Staying friendly means you can trade with their puppets for Rubber, one of the few sources you have access too once the war starts.
I usually boost popularity of the Facist party and try and get them in my faction (there is a national focus for this).
Granted it has been quite a while since I played, but the AI does reasonably well on a one front war.
But it tends to fall apart when other fronts are opened up.
But it tends to fall apart when other fronts are opened up.
@Axe99 imho, the problem now with the concept of "giving the ai enough units and it doesn't shuffle so much" is two-fold, the ai is usually unable to support that many units with supply or equipment, and all it takes is another front.
Hopefully 1.4 improves this.
You can see the grand vision behind what PDS is doing with the ai. The question is will reality ever match the vision.
Hopefully 1.4 improves this.
You can see the grand vision behind what PDS is doing with the ai. The question is will reality ever match the vision.
The AI has serious issues with multiple fronts. During weekend I have played several ways as Axis South Africa, and everytime I opened SA front all Axis nations started to move troops there and allies did the same. This meant that my own units were often out of supply because of the poor infrastructure in Africa, it also mean that other fronts were overrun. Really the AI must have its priorities set, so it does not ferry troops over the globe back and forth and lose half of them in destroyed transports.