Improving the Scandinavian experience by making Denmark more viable - a suggestion

[Wagonlitz]

This is a split off from the discussion in the dev diary from the 10th of March.
As I mentioned there one of the problems with Denmark in game is that she doesn't really have any strategic depth. Plus she is too weak compared to Sweden. Denmark including Skåneland should be stronger than Sweden, whereas when Sweden takes Skåneland Denmark + Norway should be able to draw her. That is how it was in history. I think a way to achieve this is to ad a few provinces to Denmark so that she can't be overrun so easily by e.g. HRE minors and give her some more development. Below is my suggestion post from the dev diary.

I have looked at development. In 1444 both Denmark and Sweden has 102 dev. Denmark's includes Gotland though, which is 10 and shouldn't really be considered, since it didn't really play much role in us being stronger than Sweden initially, but given the way development works I guess it should be considered after all.
Denmark has 10 provinces including Gotland; Sweden has 18, though we know that in 1.16 they will have 21.
Norway has 69 dev and 15 provinces, though 6 dev are on Shetland and Orkney which were lost in the 1470s and hence shouldn't really be considered.
I would think it wrong to not consider Slesvig Holsten part of Denmark when measuring 1444 strength against Sweden. So Denmark is at 124 vs Sweden at 102. That seems reasonable.
The three provinces of Skåneland are 34 dev which seems reasonable and also means that Sweden taking those + Gotland will make her considerably stronger than Denmark, since Sweden will be at 146, whereas Denmark wil be at 80. That seems reasonable too.

Add in Norway. Denmark + Norway will be at 134 after Shetland and Orkney are lost and Sweden has taken Jemtland (3 dev) and Båhuslen (6 dev); Sweden will be at 155. Also that is excluding the Baltic possessions of Sweden which should be considered in a comparison like this, but I will exclude them for now.

Now Denmark and Norway were able to draw Sweden after the loss of Skåneland, so development of those two clusters should be around the same. Sweden is at 155, so if we say they should have equal dev that leaves 21 dev.

That could actually be added as 4 feasible and realistic provinces. As seen on the map you split Fyn into two. The crossing to Sjælland should be on the northern one naturally; the crossing to Slesvig probably should be on the southern one, but that is debatable given all the crossing possibilities.
Add 8 dev to Fyn. It already has 11, so it gets to 19 in total. Now whether the southern one should be 8 and the northern 11 or it should be 9 for the southern and 10 for the northern is debatable.
A good name for the northern one would be Odense and Svendborg for the southern one.

Then we have Jutland. Nordjylland should have its border moved a bit to the north both to make room and for historical reasons. Then you have the west coast for the isolated, poor Vestjylland. That should be 3 dev and produce fish.
Then you have Midtjylland centered around Viborg. It shouldn't touch Slesvig. It probably shouldn't have a port either, since due to Limfjorden closing in the 10th century you didn't really have fleets there anymore. But Limfjorden is part of Helgoland Bight in game so giving a port to Midtjylland can't really be avoided and is a lesser evil.
Then you have the rich Østjylland. The crossing to Odense should go to Østjylland.
Now you are left with Århus. I drew it to only include the shires which it mainly dominated. Though that is a rather small province. You could give it the entirety of Djursland (the nose of Jutland) to make it bigger. It shouldn't really touch Nordjylland.

Now of the 21 dev there is 13 left. I would give 3 to Sjælland to not make it too weak compared to Jutland; Sjælland would then have 24. Midtjylland already has 11 in game, so the four provinces Midtjylland becomes would have 21. 3 goes to Vestjylland leaving 18 for the rest. I would split that as 7 for Østjylland, 6 for Århus, and 5 for Midtjylland.
Now you have Nørrejylland (Nordjylland + the 4 new provinces in Midtjylland) having a total dev of 29. Which actually seems quite reasonable compared to the 24 in Sjælland, 19 in the two provinces on Fyn, and 34 in Skåneland. Skåneland remains the most powerful and rich area as it should be, while Jylland and Fyn gets the power it should have.

Besides making sure that Denmark Norway is comparable to Sweden after the loss of Skåneland, Gotland, Båhuslen, and Jemtland I also think adding those 4 provinces will give Denmark the strategic depth and wealth to not get flattened by HRE minors too easily.
Also historically Sweden would have had Baltic provinces, so she would actually be stronger yet, but that doesn't seem like a problem. I would be really happy with the addition of those 4 provinces and adding that extra 21 dev to Denmark.

It would also mean that in 1444 Denmark would be 145 dev and 16 provinces (including Slesvig and Holsten), whereas Sweden would be 102 dev and 21 provinces. (Perhaps a bit more dev depending on how the new provinces gets their dev.)
Now Sweden taking Skåneland and Gotland from Denmark would make her 146 dev, whereas Denmark would be 101 dev including Slesvig and Holsten. That seems reasonable.

What goods would the provinces have? Fish or grain? Gold?! Spices?! Slaves?!

There actually were considerable iron mining in Midtjylland; it is something called bog iron (myremalm in Danish)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron

So I would make Midtjylland iron. Vestjylland as mentioned should be fish. Østjylland would be grain, and Århus would be naval supplies. That seems a good distribution. With regard to Svendborg then that could also be naval supplies since there were some great forests in southern Fyn as far as I remember. Alternatively grain. But I really think naval supplies would be appropriate.








Edit: Cleaner province setup proposed further down the thread. Less historical, but perhaps more feasible due to the cleaner borders.
Development and trade goods remains the same of course, since it just is a redrawing of the province borders; not reshuffling of the provinces themselves.

 

[Wagonlitz]

I think it´s neat that we had such divergencies on such a small place, instead of just being... Singular

Indeed. Really a shame most of that variation has disappeared in the last century.

Well... it´s no hurricanes, but with water rising some meters and the wind blowing at speeds of a hurricane in such a flat land... Well, it´s something And yes, they do often come suddenly... There were times that Limfjorden and even Øresund froze over even, the latter you refered to earlier... Winter storms can be brutal and can leave you snowed in for days... Well at least if you didn´t like to walk through it and lived outside the city.

Some of the storms are hurricanes. And anyway it is the water levels rising which are problematic. It isn't called a stormflod (or tsunami in mordern Danish) for nothing; and they actually happen semi frequently. Although not all are as large as that one around 1872 which submerged half of Lolland. Or the two man drownings which both ate huge pieces of Jutland. In the second man drowning the water level was standing 1.7 m over the floor of Ribe Cathedral... (In total the water level in Ribe rose something like 6 m; and that is really far into the country...)
So have one of those while you are trying to cross Agger Tange and you will suddenly find yourself drowned together with your army. Here is a map showing the western coast of Jutland before (left) the first man drowning, and after (right) the second one. So much land disappeared that it is speculated an entire syssel disappeared.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Marcellus'_flood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burchardi_flood

I´m not sure when they refered to it that way, but it was quite late... Also why I refered to it as not really a reasonable argument for using integration, it didn´t really change "tag", it just rearranged how it handled it´s affairs

Well as mentioned it wasn't referred as such in 1797 so it must have been really late indeed; since the author of that book among other things were offered the position of professor of geography at Copenhagen university and I really doubt that would happen if the man couldn't even refer to his own country in the right way.

 

[Wagonlitz]

There were times that Limfjorden and even Øresund froze over even, the latter you refered to earlier...

Complere forgot to answer this.
It was Storebælt and not Øresund, which was completely frozen in 1658. The Swedish army walked over Storebælt; not Øresund. Which really underpins how it was a fluke and shouldn't be taken into account in the game, since Storebælt pretty much never freezes solid. In fact it most likely only happened in those years, when the little ice age was the coldest (and it still wasn't completely solid; you could walk on it, but there was the constant danger of it breaking). At other times it was frozen in the regard that you had to cross on small boats; boats which you from time to time had to drag across small ice sheets before rowing further. But that wasn't how it was in 1658.

 

[Quaade]

Indeed. Really a shame most of that variation has disappeared in the last century.

Did understand some of the dialects, had a grandfather who spoke like that The southern dialects kinda makes me laugh still, since it borrows so many german words anyway (have family from there... So it´s okay to make fun of them ;-))

Some of the storms are hurricanes. And anyway it is the water levels rising which are problematic. It isn't called a stormflod (or tsunami in mordern Danish) for nothing; and they actually happen semi frequently. Although not all are as large as that one around 1872 which submerged half of Lolland. Or the two man drownings which both ate huge pieces of Jutland. In the second man drowning the water level was standing 1.7 m over the floor of Ribe Cathedral... (In total the water level in Ribe rose something like 6 m; and that is really far into the country...)
So have one of those while you are trying to cross Agger Tange and you will suddenly find yourself drowned together with your army. Here is a map showing the western coast of Jutland before (left) the first man drowning, and after (right) the second one. So much land disappeared that it is speculated an entire syssel disappeared.

Yeah, Rømø has a mark of how far up the water rose after WW2... My grandfather was priest there and many sought refuge in the church since it was a bit higher of an otherwise flat and low island... And imagine transporting artillery through such a flood... Not gonna happen

Well as mentioned it wasn't referred as such in 1797 so it must have been really late indeed; since the author of that book among other things were offered the position of professor of geography at Copenhagen university and I really doubt that would happen if the man couldn't even refer to his own country in the right way.

Hehe... He might know a thing or two about those things, one would guess

Complere forgot to answer this.
It was Storebælt and not Øresund, which was completely frozen in 1658. The Swedish army walked over Storebælt; not Øresund. Which really underpins how it was a fluke and shouldn't be taken into account in the game, since Storebælt pretty much never freezes solid. In fact it most likely only happened in those years, when the little ice age was the coldest (and it still wasn't completely solid; you could walk on it, but there was the constant danger of it breaking). At other times it was frozen in the regard that you had to cross on small boats; boats which you from time to time had to drag across small ice sheets before rowing further. But that wasn't how it was in 1658.

I don´t think I can recall fjords or straits freezing over lately?... It´s some years ago that they discussed the danger of Randers Fjord freezing over... But it was an act of luck for the swedes, at least to get the war done so quickly (they could have won anyway)... Was it EU3 that portrayed frozen straits or EU2?...

 

[Wagonlitz]

The southern dialects kinda makes me laugh still, since it borrows so many german words anyway (have family from there... So it´s okay to make fun of them ;-))

Danish in general used to use many German words. Many of which have later fallen out of use again; and some like e.g. himmel or arbejde have become so integrated that they are considered fully Danish. Just look at how you used to use vorde instead of blive/forblive until something like a century ago. Though given German has both werden and bleiben vorde and blive might actually both originally be Nordic and vorde just having falled out of use in favor of forblive. Don't know.

Yeah, Rømø has a mark of how far up the water rose after WW2... My grandfather was priest there and many sought refuge in the church since it was a bit higher of an otherwise flat and low island... And imagine transporting artillery through such a flood... Not gonna happen

There was a stormflod which hit Rømø in 1945?

I don´t think I can recall fjords or straits freezing over lately?... It´s some years ago that they discussed the danger of Randers Fjord freezing over... But it was an act of luck for the swedes, at least to get the war done so quickly (they could have won anyway)... Was it EU3 that portrayed frozen straits or EU2?...

EU3 didn't have freezing straits.
Also bælterne the internal waters did freeze quite a bit during the ice winters of the late 80s. Though not so that you could walk an army across them at all. And Ringkøbing Fjord often freezes to some extent. And the reason places like Randers Fjord, Vejle Fjord, etc. don't freeze in bad winters is that the harbour have small ice breakers. Though if a really bad winter comes they are out of luck, since they managed to have the national ice breakers scrapped a few years ago and now have to themselves rent icebreakers from abroad in case of really harsh winters.

And no the Swedes most likely wouldn't have won hadn't they been so lucky that the Belt froze. Because otherwise the navy would have been perfectly capable at holding them away: and they also didn't really manage to invade Skåneland ironically enough.
I guess you could have several straits in northern Europe (including some of the water around London), but it should only really be possible around 1660. Perhaps with it being random which years it happens in. But before and after the worst parts of the little ice age it wasn't really possible for them to freeze in that way.
Rivers could freeze in some severe winters I guess meaning they don't give a crossing penalty; or a lower one. Though not sure it is worth the extra calculations to add it.

 

[Quaade]

Danish in general used to use many German words. Many of which have later fallen out of use again; and some like e.g. himmel or arbejde have become so integrated that they are considered fully Danish. Just look at how you used to use vorde instead of blive/forblive until something like a century ago. Though given German has both werden and bleiben vorde and blive might actually both originally be Nordic and vorde just having falled out of use in favor of forblive. Don't know.

Many english words come from the nordic language too well... Mixed with german and latin sure... Thorp is one of them, a small village which is the same sound used in Denmark to describe the same thing... Tarp or Torp I think it was...

There was a stormflod which hit Rømø in 1945?

No after, can´t recall when... He was mentioned in a book from the island, along with the flood... Can see if I can dig it up... My father has it at home somewhere... They have a mark in Havneby I think showing how far up the water rose.

EU3 didn't have freezing straits.
Also bælterne the internal waters did freeze quite a bit during the ice winters of the late 80s. Though not so that you could walk an army across them at all. And Ringkøbing Fjord often freezes to some extent. And the reason places like Randers Fjord, Vejle Fjord, etc. don't freeze in bad winters is that the harbour have small ice breakers. Though if a really bad winter comes they are out of luck, since they managed to have the national ice breakers scrapped a few years ago and now have to themselves rent icebreakers from abroad in case of really harsh winters.

And no the Swedes most likely wouldn't have won hadn't they been so lucky that the Belt froze. Because otherwise the navy would have been perfectly capable at holding them away: and they also didn't really manage to invade Skåneland ironically enough.
I guess you could have several straits in northern Europe (including some of the water around London), but it should only really be possible around 1660. Perhaps with it being random which years it happens in. But before and after the worst parts of the little ice age it wasn't really possible for them to freeze in that way.
Rivers could freeze in some severe winters I guess meaning they don't give a crossing penalty; or a lower one. Though not sure it is worth the extra calculations to add it.

I was sure one of the games had freezing waters, especially in the Alaska region... Could be another game, it´s a long time ago really Yeah... It happens so few times and for such short time that it doesn´t really makes much sense to have it...