Improving the Scandinavian experience by making Denmark more viable - a suggestion

[Wagonlitz]

This is a split off from the discussion in the dev diary from the 10th of March.
As I mentioned there one of the problems with Denmark in game is that she doesn't really have any strategic depth. Plus she is too weak compared to Sweden. Denmark including Skåneland should be stronger than Sweden, whereas when Sweden takes Skåneland Denmark + Norway should be able to draw her. That is how it was in history. I think a way to achieve this is to ad a few provinces to Denmark so that she can't be overrun so easily by e.g. HRE minors and give her some more development. Below is my suggestion post from the dev diary.

I have looked at development. In 1444 both Denmark and Sweden has 102 dev. Denmark's includes Gotland though, which is 10 and shouldn't really be considered, since it didn't really play much role in us being stronger than Sweden initially, but given the way development works I guess it should be considered after all.
Denmark has 10 provinces including Gotland; Sweden has 18, though we know that in 1.16 they will have 21.
Norway has 69 dev and 15 provinces, though 6 dev are on Shetland and Orkney which were lost in the 1470s and hence shouldn't really be considered.
I would think it wrong to not consider Slesvig Holsten part of Denmark when measuring 1444 strength against Sweden. So Denmark is at 124 vs Sweden at 102. That seems reasonable.
The three provinces of Skåneland are 34 dev which seems reasonable and also means that Sweden taking those + Gotland will make her considerably stronger than Denmark, since Sweden will be at 146, whereas Denmark wil be at 80. That seems reasonable too.

Add in Norway. Denmark + Norway will be at 134 after Shetland and Orkney are lost and Sweden has taken Jemtland (3 dev) and Båhuslen (6 dev); Sweden will be at 155. Also that is excluding the Baltic possessions of Sweden which should be considered in a comparison like this, but I will exclude them for now.

Now Denmark and Norway were able to draw Sweden after the loss of Skåneland, so development of those two clusters should be around the same. Sweden is at 155, so if we say they should have equal dev that leaves 21 dev.

That could actually be added as 4 feasible and realistic provinces. As seen on the map you split Fyn into two. The crossing to Sjælland should be on the northern one naturally; the crossing to Slesvig probably should be on the southern one, but that is debatable given all the crossing possibilities.
Add 8 dev to Fyn. It already has 11, so it gets to 19 in total. Now whether the southern one should be 8 and the northern 11 or it should be 9 for the southern and 10 for the northern is debatable.
A good name for the northern one would be Odense and Svendborg for the southern one.

Then we have Jutland. Nordjylland should have its border moved a bit to the north both to make room and for historical reasons. Then you have the west coast for the isolated, poor Vestjylland. That should be 3 dev and produce fish.
Then you have Midtjylland centered around Viborg. It shouldn't touch Slesvig. It probably shouldn't have a port either, since due to Limfjorden closing in the 10th century you didn't really have fleets there anymore. But Limfjorden is part of Helgoland Bight in game so giving a port to Midtjylland can't really be avoided and is a lesser evil.
Then you have the rich Østjylland. The crossing to Odense should go to Østjylland.
Now you are left with Århus. I drew it to only include the shires which it mainly dominated. Though that is a rather small province. You could give it the entirety of Djursland (the nose of Jutland) to make it bigger. It shouldn't really touch Nordjylland.

Now of the 21 dev there is 13 left. I would give 3 to Sjælland to not make it too weak compared to Jutland; Sjælland would then have 24. Midtjylland already has 11 in game, so the four provinces Midtjylland becomes would have 21. 3 goes to Vestjylland leaving 18 for the rest. I would split that as 7 for Østjylland, 6 for Århus, and 5 for Midtjylland.
Now you have Nørrejylland (Nordjylland + the 4 new provinces in Midtjylland) having a total dev of 29. Which actually seems quite reasonable compared to the 24 in Sjælland, 19 in the two provinces on Fyn, and 34 in Skåneland. Skåneland remains the most powerful and rich area as it should be, while Jylland and Fyn gets the power it should have.

Besides making sure that Denmark Norway is comparable to Sweden after the loss of Skåneland, Gotland, Båhuslen, and Jemtland I also think adding those 4 provinces will give Denmark the strategic depth and wealth to not get flattened by HRE minors too easily.
Also historically Sweden would have had Baltic provinces, so she would actually be stronger yet, but that doesn't seem like a problem. I would be really happy with the addition of those 4 provinces and adding that extra 21 dev to Denmark.

It would also mean that in 1444 Denmark would be 145 dev and 16 provinces (including Slesvig and Holsten), whereas Sweden would be 102 dev and 21 provinces. (Perhaps a bit more dev depending on how the new provinces gets their dev.)
Now Sweden taking Skåneland and Gotland from Denmark would make her 146 dev, whereas Denmark would be 101 dev including Slesvig and Holsten. That seems reasonable.

What goods would the provinces have? Fish or grain? Gold?! Spices?! Slaves?!

There actually were considerable iron mining in Midtjylland; it is something called bog iron (myremalm in Danish)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron

So I would make Midtjylland iron. Vestjylland as mentioned should be fish. Østjylland would be grain, and Århus would be naval supplies. That seems a good distribution. With regard to Svendborg then that could also be naval supplies since there were some great forests in southern Fyn as far as I remember. Alternatively grain. But I really think naval supplies would be appropriate.








Edit: Cleaner province setup proposed further down the thread. Less historical, but perhaps more feasible due to the cleaner borders.
Development and trade goods remains the same of course, since it just is a redrawing of the province borders; not reshuffling of the provinces themselves.

 

[Wagonlitz]

That could actually be added as 4 feasible and realistic provinces. As seen on the map you split Fyn into two. The crossing to Sjælland should be on the northern one naturally; the crossing to Slesvig probably should be on the southern one, but that is debatable given all the crossing possibilities.
Add 8 dev to Fyn. It already has 11, so it gets to 19 in total. Now whether the southern one should be 8 and the northern 11 or it should be 9 for the southern and 10 for the northern is debatable.
A good name for the northern one would be Odense and Svendborg for the southern one.

I agree and it actually looks nicely enouhg, though I would move the border just a little more to the south and "position" armies on the island so you can still easily click the main-land of Fyn to move there

Then we have Jutland. Nordjylland should have its border moved a bit to the north both to make room and for historical reasons. Then you have the west coast for the isolated, poor Vestjylland. That should be 3 dev and produce fish.
Then you have Midtjylland centered around Viborg. It shouldn't touch Slesvig. It probably shouldn't have a port either, since due to Limfjorden closing in the 10th century you didn't really have fleets there anymore. But Limfjorden is part of Helgoland Bight in game so giving a port to Midtjylland can't really be avoided and is a lesser evil.
Then you have the rich Østjylland. The crossing to Odense should go to Østjylland.
Now you are left with Århus. I drew it to only include the shires which it mainly dominated. Though that is a rather small province. You could give it the entirety of Djursland (the nose of Jutland) to make it bigger. It shouldn't really touch Nordjylland.

I agree with Nordjylland, though border should be more to the north, they have always been divided naturally by the Fjord (which doesn´t go all the way through in the game ;-) ). Århus shouldn´t include Rønde and Ebeltoft, though Rønde would be the most likely due to closeness to Århus, Grenå was actually the trade-harbor-city until Århus surpassed them in the 19-something. Ebeltoft and most of Østjylland has been closer to Grenå and actually still has close connections to it for traditional views. So moving Århus a bit more south, perhaps including Rønde since they did had connections anyway, making it take more the look of the modern Århus kommune, then having Østjylland or Djursland which it was originally called for all of the nose, including Rønde and Ebeltoft.

Then comes the matter with Randers, who both had ties to Djursland and Ålborg. To make the province a bit larger and more even for gameplay view in development, I would actually make Østjylland go up to Randers and Gudenåen, make Århus take the rest of Gudenåen and go down to just north of your newly places strait (which I totally agree with should be placed there) or/and make Samsø part of the clickable province of Århus, for ease of clicking (hate those small islands and provinces you can´t click) which also makes sense historical and "cultural", they have always had ties to Århus, had a ferry directly at some time back then and they still have through Odder which is part of Århus but goes some way south from Århus.

Make Nordjylland north of Limfjorden, make Midtjylland from south of Århus with a crossing, up to the current Nordjylland and down to Slesvig. Dividing Vestjylland into a northern and southern province where the northern takes most of the old Nordjylland and a bit south of the coast from it, then make the southern Vestjylland fill the rest until Midtjylland. Then make the Ålborg province from Gudenåen until Limfjorden... I´ll try to draw it... But should make sense for at least those from Østjylland and Vestjylland, I´m born and raised in Østjylland myself, and my girlfriend is from Vestjylland, and assuming I understood her correctly when we talked about it briefly, it should make sense to them aswell from a geo-political view too.

Will try to mark it in a map, for ease of reference...

Now of the 21 dev there is 13 left. I would give 3 to Sjælland to not make it too weak compared to Jutland; Sjælland would then have 24. Midtjylland already has 11 in game, so the four provinces Midtjylland becomes would have 21. 3 goes to Vestjylland leaving 18 for the rest. I would split that as 7 for Østjylland, 6 for Århus, and 5 for Midtjylland.
Now you have Nørrejylland (Nordjylland + the 4 new provinces in Midtjylland) having a total dev of 29. Which actually seems quite reasonable compared to the 24 in Sjælland, 19 in the two provinces on Fyn, and 34 in Skåneland. Skåneland remains the most powerful and rich area as it should be, while Jylland and Fyn gets the power it should have.

The issue of Sjælland is that it already is quite expensive, but it should be somewhat comparable to Jutland, though still weaker. I do agree on the rest, would make sense.

Besides making sure that Denmark Norway is comparable to Sweden after the loss of Skåneland, Gotland, Båhuslen, and Jemtland I also think adding those 4 provinces will give Denmark the strategic depth and wealth to not get flattened by HRE minors too easily.
Also historically Sweden would have had Baltic provinces, so she would actually be stronger yet, but that doesn't seem like a problem. I would be really happy with the addition of those 4 provinces and adding that extra 21 dev to Denmark.

Denmark shouldn´t be too strong either, given that Sweden should have the chance of getting their independence, but they can get support anyway but might just give a small buff to sweden (they do however get new provinces now) could balance it out, Sweden wasn´t as dirt-poor as portrayed in game, yes they were quite northern, but they were also quite productive and the mountains have never really been much of an issue for them to settle in, yes there are issues with it, but it´s not like they have any choice so they have settled all over, and it didn´t cost 50 % more to do so...

Though I might point out, that Århus might should be 5 instead since they weren´t a trading hub until much later, Randers and Grenå were actually larger than Århus until 19-something and had more importance.

It would also mean that in 1444 Denmark would be 145 dev and 16 provinces (including Slesvig and Holsten), whereas Sweden would be 102 dev and 21 provinces. (Perhaps a bit more dev depending on how the new provinces gets their dev.)
Now Sweden taking Skåneland and Gotland from Denmark would make her 146 dev, whereas Denmark would be 101 dev including Slesvig and Holsten. That seems reasonable.

I agree, it sounds reasonable and balanced.

Its so hard to stop once you start adding new provinces eh?

Reminds me of my first EU3 mod.

Balkans with ~250 provinces.

It is, but it´s also because Denmark as a nation had these splits and some cultural differences to each other... Even the language differed from place to place But it was about balancing Denmark and making them a bit more interesting... One or two of the provinces could go, in terms of having a bit larger provinces, like Østjylland having Århus too and Randers being part of Ålborg... But the split is done much like how Denmark was split in 2007 when the boundaries were merged...

 

[Wagonlitz]

I agree and it actually looks nicely enouhg, though I would move the border just a little more to the south and "position" armies on the island so you can still easily click the main-land of Fyn to move there

I used Odense and Svendborg counties as a reference; but yes moving it a bit to the south could work. The point being that I think Fyn warrants two provinces.

It also makes the island part of Denmark more viable and less likely to surrender unless the islands start falling---which as we know is 100% historical.

I agree with Nordjylland, though border should be more to the north, they have always been divided naturally by the Fjord (which doesn´t go all the way through in the game ;-) ). Århus shouldn´t include Rønde and Ebeltoft, though Rønde would be the most likely due to closeness to Århus, Grenå was actually the trade-harbor-city until Århus surpassed them in the 19-something. Ebeltoft and most of Østjylland has been closer to Grenå and actually still has close connections to it for traditional views. So moving Århus a bit more south, perhaps including Rønde since they did had connections anyway, making it take more the look of the modern Århus kommune, then having Østjylland or Djursland which it was originally called for all of the nose, including Rønde and Ebeltoft.

Then comes the matter with Randers, who both had ties to Djursland and Ålborg. To make the province a bit larger and more even for gameplay view in development, I would actually make Østjylland go up to Randers and Gudenåen, make Århus take the rest of Gudenåen and go down to just north of your newly places strait (which I totally agree with should be placed there) or/and make Samsø part of the clickable province of Århus, for ease of clicking (hate those small islands and provinces you can´t click) which also makes sense historical and "cultural", they have always had ties to Århus, had a ferry directly at some time back then and they still have through Odder which is part of Århus but goes some way south from Århus.

Make Nordjylland north of Limfjorden, make Midtjylland from south of Århus with a crossing, up to the current Nordjylland and down to Slesvig. Dividing Vestjylland into a northern and southern province where the northern takes most of the old Nordjylland and a bit south of the coast from it, then make the southern Vestjylland fill the rest until Midtjylland. Then make the Ålborg province from Gudenåen until Limfjorden... I´ll try to draw it... But should make sense for at least those from Østjylland and Vestjylland, I´m born and raised in Østjylland myself, and my girlfriend is from Vestjylland, and assuming I understood her correctly when we talked about it briefly, it should make sense to them aswell from a geo-political view too.

Will try to mark it in a map, for ease of reference...

The reason I didn't move Nordjylland north of the fjord is that Ålborg historically always have had Himmerland under it. Just look at Ålborghus Len, Ålborghus Amt, or Ålborg Amt. Though it could be moved further to the north if it made better provinces to the south.

With regard to Århus then its traditional hinterland includes approximately the shires I gave it. Including Ning shire (Odder kommune) has to be done; both for historical reasons and to not have the province too small. The reason I included Mols is that there actually was considerable connections with it; after all the Molbo stories arose in Århus and Ebeltoft where the merchants thouth the rural people of Mols were stupid. And those were already centuries old when they were written down in the late 1700s.
But yes Randers was the great rival and Djursland was actually hinterland to both Århus and Randers; as can be seen by how Århus makes the Århus Ryomgård railway as a response to teh Randers Grenå one in the late 1800s (Århus Ryomgård connected to Randers Grenå in Ryomgård).

With regard to Vestjylland then I wouldn't split that into two at all. Sure it might make sense geopolitically (and I agree with that), but economically it makes zilch sense. All of that area was really poor and only had very few cities: Ringkøbing, Varde, Holstebro, and Lemvig are pretty much it. I even have a replica of a map from the time of Christian II and it shows Vestjylland as blank aside from a few settlements and those cities. (Interestingly it has Varde far into the country and further to the north than Ringkøbing...)
Vestjylland as a whole only warrants 3 development and splitting it into two provinces would award it 6 development.
I wouldn't really make a separate Ålborg province, since Ålborg historically has been tied to Nordjylland and is part of what warrants that province in the first place.

Though having the Århus province include several of the market towns of Østjylland would make sense; it would need another name though. I also don't like the "Århus" province touching Nordjylland; I feel that for it to properly represent the coastal market towns it needs to not be connected to anything, but Østjylland.

The issue of Sjælland is that it already is quite expensive, but it should be somewhat comparable to Jutland, though still weaker. I do agree on the rest, would make sense.

If you don't give it anything you end up with Fyn being comparable in wealth and Jylland considerably above Sjælland---and Jylland equalling Skåneland. I think that is really bad, hence why I gave 3 dev to Sjælland.

Denmark shouldn´t be too strong either, given that Sweden should have the chance of getting their independence, but they can get support anyway but might just give a small buff to sweden (they do however get new provinces now) could balance it out, Sweden wasn´t as dirt-poor as portrayed in game, yes they were quite northern, but they were also quite productive and the mountains have never really been much of an issue for them to settle in, yes there are issues with it, but it´s not like they have any choice so they have settled all over, and it didn´t cost 50 % more to do so...

Though I might point out, that Århus might should be 5 instead since they weren´t a trading hub until much later, Randers and Grenå were actually larger than Århus until 19-something and had more importance.

What I meant with regard to Sweden is that it wasn't possible to stamp large armies out of the areas around Norrbotton and Lappland which it will be with those added provinces.
And Sweden was considerably weaker than Denmark in 1444; though they had a faster growth than Denmark. It should require either having foreign backers or Denmark falling into disarray (as happened historically) for Sweden to go independent. As it is now Sweden often is able to steamroll Denmark on its own which is blatantly unrealistic pre taking Skåneland (1658 was a fluke).

 

[Wagonlitz]

View attachment 163098 View attachment 163098 View attachment 163099 View attachment 163100 View attachment 163101 View attachment 163102 View attachment 163103
Just did a quick sketch, 1st there is a province more in Sweden though that´s just for show... Rest is done according to the boundaries of the state by comparing the images and using some artistic freedom ;-)

EDIT: Forgot Fyn :-D well that´s easy to forget that speedbump on the way but the border should be just like shown in "danske amter 1793-1970

As mentioned giving Denmark any part of Småland is ahistorical; or you wanted to add a province to Sweden?

I don't really like your suggestion, since as mentioned Vestjylland economically didn't really warrant two provinces. There also are too many provinces. Combining Skanderborg and Århus counties to a province seems wrong in my opinion. While adding Skanderborg itself to Århus might be justifyable then adding the entirety of Skanderborg county to Århus is problematic if you want a rich Østjylland province. The Rander county province could make sense, but adding it on top of the Århus one gives too many provinces. Combining Randers and Århus counties makes more sense for a market town province in my opinion; then adding a little part of Skanderborg county could be done to not have the province too hard to click.

Even the language differed from place to place

Så Møn should be split in two? Because it had two dialects which stemmed from udskiftningen; half went self owning, whereas the other half didn't and kept a more traditional language than the "new fangled self owning farmers" on the other wise of the island.

But it was about balancing Denmark and making them a bit more interesting... One or two of the provinces could go, in terms of having a bit larger provinces, like Østjylland having Århus too and Randers being part of Ålborg... But the split is done much like how Denmark was split in 2007 when the boundaries were merged...

I don't like using the 1970 counties as a reference. It is better to use the 1793 ones, though those aren't too good either. The 1660 ones would be a better reference, but things quickly gets messy with those and borders needs to be rather clean for programming reasons. And all of those gives problems with regard to Vestjylland. In your map you have put Viborg and Ringkøbing counties together. I don't really like that, since Viborg traded and connected mainly to the east and not to the west. As mentioned the west was quite isolated and really poor.

Which is why I perfer a Midtjylland province around Viborg; though its borders can't really be based on anything, since basing it on counties would make the eastern part of Jutland too crammed and unclickable.

I have tried making a new map; yes Viborg is hardly included in Midtjylland if at all, but that geographical error can't really be avoided if we are to have clickable provinces. I also make Århus (or whatever it should be called) larger by giving it part of Skanderborg county (Skanderborg itself and Horsens). And importantly have it only connect to Østjylland.

Now that more market towns are included in Århus I would say that the 5 dev to Midtjylland, 7 dev to Østjylland, 6 dev to Århus still seems fine.

So the development values should stay as mentioned in the OP.

What goods would the provinces have? Fish or grain? Gold?! Spices?! Slaves?!

There actually were considerable iron mining in Midtjylland; it is something called bog iron (myremalm in Danish)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron

So I would make Midtjylland iron. Vestjylland as mentioned should be fish. Østjylland would be grain, and Århus would be naval supplies. That seems a good distribution. With regard to Svendborg then that could also be naval supplies since there were some great forests in southern Fyn as far as I remember. Alternatively grain. But I really think naval supplies would be appropriate.

Would like the triangle area as independent and Østjylland thus being smaller, but Vestjylland seems great and ålborg

I think you still are focusing too much on the 1970 counties and modern administrative borders.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Borders looking that way are never going to happen.
Fyn being split produces micro provinces, i dont think even mods would do that (not even i would and i add everyone and their dog).

 

[Wagonlitz]

What im trying to say is, things like this:

Spoiler

are far more likely to appear in mods than in vanilla. So dont hole too much, although, who knows, anything is possible.

I see we get representatives from all three countries here ... the idea to changing Denmark isn't that far of a stretch when you consider that three entire provinces are given to Sweden just willy-nilly here. Though, I think three more provinces for Denmark with decent development might be enough, dunno.

The main points are Denmark is too weak, and often gets annexed by nations like Lübeck because they just cannot fight back in the end, often after Sweden has weakened them in independence wars and following wars. One, its ideas are laughably bad. They need stronger ideas, in general, and could really need something for land. They'll always have to fight off Sweden's laughably high 20% infantry combat ability as a tradition. Two, they have too few provinces. For some reason, Sweden is getting even more provinces, which might be fine if they balanced it out. Provinces don't just add to power of a nation but also makes it harder to annex due to higher warscore cost. There'll also be more to occupy and fight. As it is, Denmark is tiny. Its development versus Sweden is also too low. Will they add more Swedish events in the next patch too, I wonder?

Though, I think three more provinces for Denmark with decent development might be enough, dunno.

I really think Fyn should be split---or some of the southern islands should make up another one, but that would be too small. Fyn was really rich. Having another province in the islands also means that taking the continental provinces (Jylland and Skåneland) gives less war score and hence you will to a larger extent need to occupy the islands before being able to grab provinces from Denmark, which is really historical.

Now whether two or three should be added to Jylland could be discussed. Vestjylland obviously needs to be split; there isn't really much discussion about that. I really like adding Midtjylland, since Viborg remained a place things gravitated around---to some extent at least. Plus there is the myremalm which was mined to great extent in Midtjylland and I think adding an iron province to Denmark would be reasonable.
That leaves Østjylland. Now whether that should just be a single province or split into an interior one and the market towns around Randers, Århus, and Djursland is debatable. I would like that split both for more strategic depth and possibility of raising armies; plus it also ensures that the Østjylland province doesn't get too much development. While historically it was really rich and the area should have that 13 development, I don't particularly like making a single province in Jylland that rich.

There'll also be more to occupy and fight.

Not to mention more opportunity to come back, since more provinces means more possibilities of raising new armies.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Borders looking that way are never going to happen.
Fyn being split produces micro provinces, i dont think even mods would do that (not even i would and i add everyone and their dog).

Fyn includes Langeland too (that long island to the south of Fyn); and initially I had split Fyn more evenly as seen in the OP. The thing is that for Denmark to work properly there needs to be more focus on how Denmark pretty much never surrendered or ceeded anything unless you managed to take any of the islands. That can be done by splitting Fyn. And the two provinces on Fyn aren't smaller than Bornholm.

And yeah I am aware that especially Midtjylland isn't too pretty. The plausible and historical way to split Jylland though is to have the western coast which was isolated, the eastern coast which was rich, and the the middle part. How else would you draw it?

Or is it the Århus province you find problematic?

 

[Wagonlitz]

Borders looking that way are never going to happen.
Fyn being split produces micro provinces, i dont think even mods would do that (not even i would and i add everyone and their dog).

I tried redrawing the provinces to make more clean borders. It approaches @Quaade's second proposal, though it doesn't have Midtjylland cutting Østjylland off from connecting to Nordjylland, which is bad and unrealistic.

Do you think these borders are better? They are cleaner at least; though Midtjylland touching the west coast is bad, but a lesser evil.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Fyn includes Langeland too (that long island to the south of Fyn); and initially I had split Fyn more evenly as seen in the OP. The thing is that for Denmark to work properly there needs to be more focus on how Denmark pretty much never surrendered or ceeded anything unless you managed to take any of the islands. That can be done by splitting Fyn. And the two provinces on Fyn aren't smaller than Bornholm.

And yeah I am aware that especially Midtjylland isn't too pretty. The plausible and historical way to split Jylland though is to have the western coast which was isolated, the eastern coast which was rich, and the the middle part. How else would you draw it?

Or is it the Århus province you find problematic?

The one that looks like it has access to 3 different sea provinces, that could be problematic. Id just merge that with whatever province it is where the capital of Jylland is located in.
Dont hold your hope (or bother arguing) for micro provinces, unless those are super important places (like Lubeck) or islands.

 

[Wagonlitz]

The one that looks like it has access to 3 different sea provinces, that could be problematic. Id just merge that with whatever province it is where the capital of Jylland is located in.
Dont hold your hope (or bother arguing) for micro provinces, unless those are super important places (like Lubeck) or islands.

Well the reason that gets 3 sea provinces is that Limfjorden (the fjord cutting Jylland in two) is drawn completely wrong. From around the 11th century and until a few years after the game ends there was no opening from Limfjorden to the North Sea. The only opening was to the east to Kattegat---an opening which isn't even shown on the map, but that probably is due to programming reasons.
Adding it to the capital of Jylland (which was Viborg) would make a really strange province, since it would mean merging Østjylland and Midtjylland---which would have three sea provinces anyway. Also the current Midtjylland province actually has access to three sea provinces.

And I wouldn't call most of those provinces micro provinces. Vestjylland, Midtjylland, and Østjylland all are around the size of provinces like Slesvig or some of the provinces on the German baltic coast. Though you might have a case about Århus and Svendborg being micro.
To not have Denmark run over by HRE minors you really need at least one of them though; and in my opinion both. I have tried redrawing the map.

 

[Benghi Bon]

The one that looks like it has access to 3 different sea provinces, that could be problematic. Id just merge that with whatever province it is where the capital of Jylland is located in.
Dont hold your hope (or bother arguing) for micro provinces, unless those are super important places (like Lubeck) or islands.

Denmark sorely needs more stuff. They can't be big with how small Denmark is on a map. Small provinces is a barebones argument for anything if you ask me. A lot of Denmark can be split up into more provinces for it to be a better country and actually for once rival event-stacked-Sweden in this silly game. In the pictures and the province changes in the next patch we also see many provinces becoming smaller in redesign.

 

[Benghi Bon]

I like this design more, but maybe merging Ribe(?) with the province on its direct north would be better.

 

[Wagonlitz]

I like this design more, but maybe merging Ribe(?) with the province on its direct north would be better.

That could work too I guess. But I really want an additional island province to try and replicate how Denmark notoriously didn't give in as long as none of the islands were taken. (That seriously is what happened most of the time. Jylland could be completely occupied, but as long as the islands weren't taking there wasn't any need to give in.)

And you should rename Ribe, since that province firstly doesn't include Ribe and secondly Ribe needs to be in Slesvig for historical and economical reasons. While Ribe was a royal enclave it was still firmly connected to the surrounding area economically.
Call what is called Ribe on that map Vestjylland. What is called Ringkøbing you can call Midtjylland, Århus you can call Østjylland, and Skagen Nordjylland. Ålborg is fine; alternatively you could call it Himmerland, but given that most of that area was under Ålborg continuesly throughout the game calling it Ålborg makes sense.

And with regard to trade goods I would let them be the same as in my suggestion. I.e. fish for Vestjylland, iron for Midtjylland (I really think that adding iron instead of just having bad trade goods would be a good idea; and as mentioned it is historical, since large quantities of myremalm was extracted from Jylland), naval for Østjylland, and grain for Ålborg.
Development wise it should be the same, although Ålborg should be 5 just as Midtjylland, and Østjylland be 8 now that it includes pretty much all the market towns of eastern Jutland.

 

[Quaade]

I can stand by this, makes fair size of provinces and does make some sense cultural Though you could get the same result from having horizontal lines instead, so you have Limfjord area, Skagen/nordjylland and south of Jylland and keeping Århus along with Østjylland... Ålborg was significant enough and having a poor Nordjylland would make sense both historical and for gameplay purposes...

And what´s wrong with my swiftly made lines :-O I thought they were great ;-) but good idea of putting it over here, I thought the same thing really... but well... Lazy as hell

 

[Wagonlitz]

and south of Jylland

I wouldn't want to include Slesvig in this; that place is just so messy that you can't make any reasonable provinces there which don't have ridiculously ugly borders.

and having a poor Nordjylland would make sense both historical and for gameplay purposes...

Good point. What development would you put them at? Nordjylland is 8 now. I would reduce it to 4 (not 3 due to Fladstrand) and give 2 extra to Århus (Østjylland), and 1 to each of Ålborg and Ringkøbing (Midtjylland).

And what´s wrong with my swiftly made lines :-O I thought they were great ;-)

Well firstly there as mentioned were too many provinces. Besides that I really don't like Midtjylland touching the west coast---though I ended up doing that in a revision so that point is moot now. I really liked how I made Midtjylland initially, since it pretty much covers most of Hærvejen in Jylland meaning that it is a logical shape; just a shame it isn't really feasible.
With regard to the eastern coast then I firstly didn't like you using the 1793 counties as a basis, since they are rather arbitrary, and there isn't really that much difference along the east coast. Plus my biggest problem is that having that many provinces on the east coast would mean that moving up through the west coast would be faster than moving along the east coast which is completely ridiculous---no way an army would get faster through Jylland by going at the west coast instead of the east coast.




Also I haven't seen others comment on trade goods; what trade goods do you think is appropriate?

 

[Panzerschreck]

I agree, except on the part of including Slesvig(-Holstein) into Denmark, as it wasn't until 1840's which lead to the two German-Danish wars. In fact the Duchy of Slesvig was independent until 1864, thou was double ruled by the danish king and simultaneously ruled by the local dukes (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Map_SLH-1650.png , dark orange = ruled by the king, yellow ruled by the dukes, light orange ruled by both).

 

[Wagonlitz]

I agree, except on the part of including Slesvig(-Holstein) into Denmark, as it wasn't until 1840's which lead to the two German-Danish wars. In fact the Duchy of Slesvig was independent until 1864, thou was double ruled by the danish king and simultaneously ruled by the local dukes (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Map_SLH-1650.png , dark orange = ruled by the king, yellow ruled by the dukes, light orange ruled by both).

The partial rule by local dukes only started in 1544; and ended in 1773.

Also Slesvig always was formally part of Denmark, since it was a dukedom under Denmark. Just like the French king back in the 1200s formally ruled over all of France, but in reality everything, but Isle de France was independent.
Slesvig was a dukedom under Denmark from when it was made in the 1200s and until 1864 when the Germans stole it. And Slesvig wasn't the only Danish dukedom originally. Places like Samsø, Lolland, Falster, and Halland also were dukedoms; and there might have been others. Those just never managed to get defacto independence---or at least were reigned in if they did.

And Danish monarchs did try to reign in Slesvig in e.g. the 1300s; it was just that after Christian I became duke in 1460 there wasn't much reason to abolish the duke title. Also the Ribe letter wasn't really important until the mid 1800s; and it only got written in 1460, so wasn't there in 1444.
So I don't think it is fair to exclude Slesvig.

Though if you do then you need to add 43 extra development to Denmark and not just 21; do you think that adding 43 development is reasonable? I don't.

 

[Panzerschreck]

I guess having S-H as a Vassal right it is now good to reflect the situation, because the Duchy of Slesvig was de facto independent from Denmark since the Constitutio Valdemariana in 1326, thou de jure still a Danish fiefdom. So, you may split Sleswig province into Ribe and Flensburg/Schleswig and give Ribe to Denmark and keep Holstein as a Vassal.

 

[Quaade]

I wouldn't want to include Slesvig in this; that place is just so messy that you can't make any reasonable provinces there which don't have ridiculously ugly borders.

No, meant the south of Jylland, north of Slesvig ;-) just didn´t know what to call it really...

Good point. What development would you put them at? Nordjylland is 8 now. I would reduce it to 4 (not 3 due to Fladstrand) and give 2 extra to Århus (Østjylland), and 1 to each of Ålborg and Ringkøbing (Midtjylland).

Actually I would be fine with having Skagen as 3, though 4 is fine depending on where to put it? and Ålborg as 5 at least, they have "hærvejen" and the triangle area which also was a significant trading area locally. I´m not sure which where the most important though, since Grenå and Århus were trading harbor, but Ålborg and triangle might have been more important and just might have the upper hand so I would perhaps give them 1 or 2 over Østjylland and keep Vestjylland 1-2 under that too, they have some important cities, but at the time (and still is the case) not very populated other than a few stragglers here and there, but the major cities there often had trade with rest of Europe.

Well firstly there as mentioned were too many provinces. Besides that I really don't like Midtjylland touching the west coast---though I ended up doing that in a revision so that point is moot now. I really liked how I made Midtjylland initially, since it pretty much covers most of Hærvejen in Jylland meaning that it is a logical shape; just a shame it isn't really feasible.
With regard to the eastern coast then I firstly didn't like you using the 1793 counties as a basis, since they are rather arbitrary, and there isn't really that much difference along the east coast. Plus my biggest problem is that having that many provinces on the east coast would mean that moving up through the west coast would be faster than moving along the east coast which is completely ridiculous---no way an army would get faster through Jylland by going at the west coast instead of the east coast.

I was just kidding I had the similar thought of having an inland province for Denmark, but it just wouldn´t fit properly...

I guess having S-H as a Vassal right it is now good to reflect the situation, because the Duchy of Slesvig was de facto independent from Denmark since the Constitutio Valdemariana in 1326, thou de jure still a Danish fiefdom. So, you may split Sleswig province into Ribe and Flensburg/Schleswig and give Ribe to Denmark and keep Holstein as a Vassal.

It was part of Denmark in the period, the noble families even engaged in the election of the monarch of Kalmar union

 

[Wagonlitz]

since the Constitutio Valdemariana in 1326,

Which lost pretty much all its validity within a few decades though.

So, you may split Sleswig province into Ribe and Flensburg/Schleswig and give Ribe to Denmark and keep Holstein as a Vassal.

No. Slesvig shouldn't be split. There isn't really much reasoning behind splitting it and it has pretty much always been considered a single entity. And if you want to get into its subdivisions then things get messy really quick.
Plus besides Ribe there wasn't much on the western coast of Slesvig. And splitting it into a northern and southern part is a really big anachronism. Especially given that pretty much all inhabitants still were Danes back them, so there wasn't even that cultural split which came later. Though if you do split then the northern part should revolve around Sønderborg, whereas the southern one should be around Slesvig. But again splitting it is one really big anachronism.

Keeping the entirety of it as a vassal is the best, since the duke was both duke of Slesvig and of Holsten. As duke of Holsten he was a subject of the emperor as shown by Holsten being in the empire, whereas as duke of Slesvig he was a subject of the Denmark. I guess you could use a PU to represent it, but doing that is in my opinion worse than having it as a vassal, since it wasn't a PU---at least not in the way PUs are in game. Instead it was the king essentially being his own vassal. And Slesvig (and Holsten) was directly controlled from Copenhagen; just like the rest of Denmark.