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Nick_S

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Jul 18, 2018
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Based on the discussion in the linked thread, I'd like to suggest a couple of ideas that would make navigation easier: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ng-to-love-career-mode.1172183/#post-25401096

1) Add the ability to plot a custom course through multiple star systems (so the user could select which systems they travel through rather than depending on the auto-path).

2) Add something to the "travel time" display which divides the total trip time into "jump time" and "in-system travel time." If it will take me 3 jumps and 26 days to reach a selected system I'd like it to tell me that's 15 days of jump time and 11 days from the jump point to the planet (for example). It would help smooth out some of less intuitive aspects of the map.

3) This is probably more work; but I'd love to have an option, when planning travel to "pause at each jump point" so that rather than having to manually pause if I want to stop in a system (to check the store or contracts) it would automatically pause before proceeding to the next jump (if applicable) or in-system travel to the planet.

It would also be nice to see which systems have already been visited; but other have made that suggestion as well.

Thanks
 
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whymakemedothis

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I like this idea and would add that I'd like to see some overlay toggles that add information. The current star map is beautiful but void of most important information, requiring the player to click on each individual system to get that information.

Some overlays I'd like to see added are:
  1. 'Star Lanes' so that we can see the potential paths between systems
  2. 'Skull Ratings' so that we can see which systems we would like to either visit or avoid
  3. 'Active Factions' so that we can see which employers may have contracts on that system
  4. 'Visited Systems' so that we can avoid going over old ground(this one could be integrated with the star lane overlay, any lanes we've traveled along change colour)
 

mjbroekman

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These are great, concrete suggestions for improvements.

Two things that would have to be noted in the star map (to support custom pathing) are:
  1. A note indicating the maximum jump distance. To long time BattleTech players, this is common knowledge: 30 lightyears. To new players, it might not be well-known enough that they would be understand why they can't jump from system A to system B and, instead, are forced through systems C, D, and E.
  2. Either the 'Star Lanes' as indicated by @whymakemedothis or a shaded circle when you mouse over a system that shows would show all systems within 30 lightyears (similar to @gruese interactive map). The main potential issue with permanently having paths shown is that there are some areas of the map where the number of lines between systems would be extremely cluttered and make the map almost unreadable. Having the potential jump paths or simply a jump-radius circle shown when mousing over or clicking on a system would provide the information as well as keep the clutter to a minimum.
Skull ratings are displayed when you click on a system, but it would be helpful to be able to filter on that in the map.
Active factions are displayed when you click on a system as well, but similar to skull ratings, it would be helpful to be able to filter on where particular factions are active.

Having either a game setting toggle or a travel-time checkbox to "pause at jump points" or even "check contracts at jump points" would be extremely helpful. Having it as a game setting would make it easier to turn on, but it would result in lots of extra time spent when you may not want to. Having it as a per-travel setting when you pick your jump destination would help keep 'extra time' to a minimum but you would have to remember to set it each time you want it make use of it.

But overall, custom pathing is definitely something that I'm sure most players would LOVE to see.
 

ThatGuyMontag

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I like this idea and would add that I'd like to see some overlay toggles that add information. The current star map is beautiful but void of most important information, requiring the player to click on each individual system to get that information.

Some overlays I'd like to see added are:
  1. 'Star Lanes' so that we can see the potential paths between systems
  2. 'Skull Ratings' so that we can see which systems we would like to either visit or avoid
  3. 'Active Factions' so that we can see which employers may have contracts on that system
  4. 'Visited Systems' so that we can avoid going over old ground(this one could be integrated with the star lane overlay, any lanes we've traveled along change colour)

Good suggestions. I'd probably prefer an overlay showing max jump distance from a star to star lanes, in order to avoid the UI getting too cluttered.

2 and 3 already exist on the navmap though.
 

whymakemedothis

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@mjbroekman I didn't know about the 30 light years thing and if that's the case then as you say a radial indicator would be better. As for permanent display of the lanes I did mention that I'd like to see them implemented as a toggle option so that a player could turn them on or off as they desired. You could have both, a star lane overlay that can be toggled on and off and a radial display that is rendered when a system is selected.

2 and 3 already exist on the navmap though.
Maybe I'm missing something but when I look at the star map all I see are the individual systems. If I want to see which factions are active in a system or it's skull rating I need to select one of the systems at which point I'm greeted with a panel containing that information plus a lot more. The problem is that I can only get the information for one system at a time. If I'm trying to set a path through the stars it would be convenient if I could see those two pieces of information for all systems at once, hence toggled overlays.
 

mjbroekman

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Maybe I'm missing something but when I look at the star map all I see are the individual systems. If I want to see which factions are active in a system or it's skull rating I need to select one of the systems at which point I'm greeted with a panel containing that information plus a lot more. The problem is that I can only get the information for one system at a time. If I'm trying to set a path through the stars it would be convenient if I could see those two pieces of information for all systems at once, hence toggled overlays.

Yep. Unfortunately(?), the map is INCREDIBLY dense. Between tags (which can indicate what tech can be expected in the store, which stores might be there, etc), biome (only the 'primary', though others can be active), active factions, and difficulty level there is an immense amount of information that can be displayed. The general consensus among suggestions has been that HBS should implement a filtering system so you can select the 'thing' you want highlighted in the star map whether that is a particular difficulty level, biome, whatnot.

That being said, there may also be limitations on what they can 'easily' do the UI with Unity.

I think it's a great idea and hopefully they can implement something like that, but I have no idea what behind the scenes stuff is needed for that.
 

Justin Kase

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@mjbroekman - Based on the fantastic Navigation Computer mod (from @Mpstark - search for it on Nexus Mods ), it looks like most of this should be achievable. His mod uses that toggle idea (with various hotkeys) to flip between modes. It includes :
  • Systems visited / not visited
  • System difficulties
  • Allows for custom plotted routes

It also allows you to search by (can even use a "-" to exclude items in a search):
  • Name
  • Flags
  • Factions offering contracts in system
It doesn't seem to drag the system down or cause any evident lag (and I am on a relatively old system).

Based on that, I have to imagine that most if not all of this is doable in Unity.

Would also be nice if they allowed for the borders to be organically drawn for faction ownership and to toggle that as well.
 

Doc Tenacious

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You know, when I played through the campaign, I heard Sumire talk about "pirate points" or jump points that "don't appear on any starmap." I took that as an invitation to build up my pirate rep just to gain access to this secret underground network, and all I got was a COSTECH membership to the black market. It's good, don't get me wrong, and a lot of players I read here side with the pirates just for the Black Market, but it's not what I really wanted. I wanted those pirate points I heard about, but never seemed to find, no matter how many pirate missions I did.

So while we're talking about changes to navigation, I'm pretty satisfied overall with what we have now. But I think it would be cool to do something with the pirate points: routes that don't appear on any starmap, maybe as a reward for flashpoint completion or a successful mission. They kind of mentioned it and left it hanging. These could either be routes between existing places (imagine a Canopian to Davion express), or routes to secret places, like they did with the Axylus mission.
 

Packrat

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Pirate points aren't about jumping to different star systems. They're non-standard jump points into any star system that are highly dangerous (because unlike standard jump points, they're constantly changing) but allow you to reach a planet much more quickly, and therefore are frequently used by pirates, hence the name.
 

Doc Tenacious

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Yeah, that's how Sumire presented them, but what does she know? She's not a pirate, after all :D

I'm not saying that the pirate points need to be done a certain way. I just want somebody to work with them in some way; even if it's to give you an option to get to where you want to go faster (with some risk, perhaps, or some cost). But there are a whole lot of things, I'd think, that can be done with them.

The problem I see in navigation is actually a lot different from other people here. Most people here seem to want to take the uncertainty out of navigation, to make it more convenient or predictable. What I'd like is to add in more complexity and surprise, and I think doing something with the pirate points might help that.
 

ThatGuyMontag

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Yeah, that's how Sumire presented them, but what does she know? She's not a pirate, after all :D

I'm not saying that the pirate points need to be done a certain way. I just want somebody to work with them in some way; even if it's to give you an option to get to where you want to go faster (with some risk, perhaps, or some cost). But there are a whole lot of things, I'd think, that can be done with them.

The problem I see in navigation is actually a lot different from other people here. Most people here seem to want to take the uncertainty out of navigation, to make it more convenient or predictable. What I'd like is to add in more complexity and surprise, and I think doing something with the pirate points might help that.

Pirate points are part of the fluff I'm afraid from long before Sumire mentions them:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jump_Point#Pirate_Jump_Points

And even if your merc commander was convinced that it was worth it, they'd never be able to convince a commercial jump crew to do it:

"...if a JumpShip attempts to depart from or arrive at a non-valid jump point, the ship as a whole will receive massive damage as the hyperspace field forms improperly, causing the ship and crew to arrive in warped and mangled state. Any survivors are likely to suffer permanent injuries."

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/JumpShip#Misjump

At best what we might see in terms of what you're asking for are for events to trigger more regularly and for there to be more events in general. That's a lot of work though. Alternatively, travel could be spiced up quite a bit once aerotech becomes part of the game. Both of those things are far more likely to happen than adding in pirate points, at least when it comes to a merc sandbox.

If we ever get a 4th Succession War Grand Strategy title though, all bets are off.
 
Last edited:

mjbroekman

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What @ThatGuyMontag said...

Remember, the jumpships we use in the game ARE NOT part of our merc unit. We are paying someone else to take us from system to system. No commercial jumpship crew is going to attempt to use a pirate point. For one, it's dangerous. For another, other customers won't be waiting there. And for a third, it would take weeks for a jumpship to move from a pirate point to a 'normal' point under thrusters, cutting into their profits.

Now, if the game is expanded to allow us to "acquire" a JumpShip, then all bets are off. At that point, I would think that the JumpShip would have an Engineering upgrade section that would allow it to be reinforced / improved / whatever. And if we get a crew XP system, then we can start seeing improved chances of surviving jumps to pirate points.

I LOVE the idea of a mechanic that would allow you 'misjump' on a long, planned journey and end up skipping a few jumps or jumping to system nearby your destination that may not be on your planned route, but I don't think that kind of mechanic would end up being fun to run into as a player. As a story mechanic it works because it allows you to get your characters some place inaccessible, but from a gameplay perspective, I think would be unfun, especially if it resulted in a negative event happening. "I'm at Weldry and I want to go to Brockway. Travel. *misjump* You're at New Vandenburg now and your jumpship needs three weeks to get repaired, five mechwarriors have multiple injuries, and the Argo loses a random upgrade from the damage."

Yes, that's an extreme example, but even if it were just "Oh, you're at New Vandenburg now and you need to re-plot your course", it would be an annoyance at best.

And, as @ThatGuyMontag said, if we had a Grand Strategy game ala CK2 or Stellaris, all bets are off. Hell, even if it was just a MercSim w/ combat as one element of the game I could see some validity to pirate points being an option. But as a MechCombatSim w/ mercstuff as an element, I don't think it'll happen.
 

Justin Kase

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Yeah, that's how Sumire presented them, but what does she know? She's not a pirate, after all :D

I'm not saying that the pirate points need to be done a certain way. I just want somebody to work with them in some way; even if it's to give you an option to get to where you want to go faster (with some risk, perhaps, or some cost). But there are a whole lot of things, I'd think, that can be done with them.

The problem I see in navigation is actually a lot different from other people here. Most people here seem to want to take the uncertainty out of navigation, to make it more convenient or predictable. What I'd like is to add in more complexity and surprise, and I think doing something with the pirate points might help that.

The bigger issue with the pirate points (which @Packrat touched on) is that due to the danger, most JumpShip pilots won't consider using a pirate point due to the risk involved. Even standard military organizations typically won't use a pirate point except in extreme circumstances.

In general, the risk outweighs the reward in 99.9% of the cases for your non-pirate/non-smuggler/non-CovertOps types.

It would be neat to have a Flashpoint or travel mission type open up using a 'pirate point' and just shave the travel time. The mechanic to change the travel time is already in there with the drives. . . and now I've got to thinking ;D
 

Doc Tenacious

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Thank you to all you guys (@ThatGuyMontag , @Justin Kase , @mjbroekman ) for not dismissing my thoughts on the pirate points out of hand. I can see your point that these are highly unsafe and highly dangerous, and something no sane commander would use. But isn't that what we, as mercenaries, are paid to do? To take the risks and do the things the regulars in the house garrisons can't or won't do? To use our connections in high and low places to pull off the sort of things that become the stuff of legends, and have Banzai out of NAIS scratch his head figuring out how we did it?

I don't know about you guys, but that's the kind of mercenary commander I want to be. I figure that if my character in the game wanted to play it safe his whole life, he would have never become a mercenary commander on the fringes of the periphery. It's the adventure of the thing that makes it appealing, which is why I want to do it!

The point is well taken that no respectable jumpship commander from a reputable, ComStar certified transit company would ever, ever use one of these pirate points. But what about the despicable jumpship commanders, the disreputable smugglers and pirates, that would almost certainly travel these routes to do their dirty business, outside of the scrutiny of ComStar, or the Mercenary Review Board, or the house garrisons? Why can't we get in touch with them?

I mean, we have the option to run missions for the pirates, don't we? We shop in their black markets, but how do they get all this hot LosTech stuff and battlemech parts past customs to stock in the stores? It's obvious they got to have a secret network running through the pirate points. And all I want is to get in on that action. I'm surprised you guys don't.
 

mjbroekman

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@Doc Tenacious , absolutely. And in a MercSim, it would be something completely reasonable to want. Heck, in the campaign it's a story hook. But the mechanics of it are something that, more often than not, result in "Bad Stuff". So from a mechanics perspective, you need to consider whether it's "worth it" to implement something that has minimal benefit (reduced travel time) for a high chance of failure (misjump to somewhere 'not your destination' or worse injury and/or death). Or, if you make the chances of "Bad Stuff" lower, then there becomes a question of "why doesn't everyone use these".

As such, the idea of pirate points seems, somehow, more appropriately relegated to a story element rather than a game mechanic much in the way that the campaign mission uses it.
 

Doc Tenacious

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You're right that it makes a heck of a story element. That mission from Lady Centrella to get to Axylus via the pirate point was, hands down, the best mission in the campaign for me; well worth the price of admission, It was like I was risking it all on a secret nobody else knew about, on my own, with nobody else who was going to save me if it all went FUBAR. Maybe I'm unrealistic to want that kind of feeling every day, and thinking the pirate points as a regular feature would give me that, because then it wouldn't be anything special.

But, for me at least, the main appeal of pirate points is that the ships who use them travel them in secret, and I kind of like the thought that I'm in on some little secret hardly anyone in the Reach knows about. It makes me feel like I have more to offer the clients than simple battlemech tonnage, but experience that shows a deep knowledge of the reach that my clients lack. I imagine there's two starmaps of the Reach: the one Sumire and every other captain knows about, and the secret starmap, that only that pirate agent dude who says "You want to get paid, don't you?", other members of the criminal underworld, some house intelligence agencies, some high-ranking ComStar agents, and several old and cagy mercenary captains like Jamie Wolf, Morgan Kell, and Wayne Waco know anything about, and even these agencies and people don't know the extent of all of it, but bits and pieces here and there.

The main reason everybody isn't using the secret starmap is because it's secret. It's the starmap you use when you want to transport things you shouldn't be transporting. Drugs. Weapons. LosTech. Commandos. Wanted criminals. And political figures like Lady Arano when she fled after the coup. Nobody, outside of a few people, know exactly when the ships arrive and leave, and exactly where it came from or is headed to. And space is a big place. There's a whole lot of real estate there in a solar system you could plot a jump solution to. And unless you are in on the secret, you'd never know where to look, or when to look.

You'd think the navigators would become really good at plotting solutions if they were jumping to and from a system on the regular, because they would, over time, familiarize themselves with all the quirks and variables, kind of like a smuggler on a small plane learns how to land the plane on an improvised landing strip in the pitch dark, or a guy in a boat learns how to read the currents and the tides, and when the coast guard patrols arrive. It ain't safe if you are doing it for the first time. It ain't 100% safe at any time. But it's been going on for so long, it's reliable enough that whatever criminal organizations use it as a trafficking route can plan accordingly, make sure the shipments get to where they need to be, link up to the KFFC booms as a science, and go. The ship might even have an LF battery or other LosTech that gets it up and out fast. And it's this routine, carried on in secret, that eludes the authorities. Maybe ComStar knows, but it ain't talking. It might even be in on the whole thing.

That's really meta, and not mechanical so much, but it would be interesting if, over time, you could learn about these secret routes, and use these secret routes, so you might not have to jump four systems to go from, say, Detroit to Weldry. You can learn about a pirate route that goes from Detroit to Herodotus that can get you to Weldry in two. Truth is, it's been there all along. But you only knew about it when you did a favor for the "You want to get paid, right?" guy at a flashpoint, and now that you know about it, you can use it.

You do a flashpoint for Kurita, and part of the flashpoint involves boarding a captured Davion dropship, taking it through a pirate route into Liao space, and blowing up a fuel depot to provoke Liao into attacking Davion. Now you know about the pirate route, so you can use it. Your map is now a whole lot more detailed and complete than it was when you were a n00b driving that Vindi they gave you at the beginning of career mode.

So that is how I might incorporate the pirate points, as a kind of easter egg or McGuffin that makes you feel like you've joined a secret club, or that you've got what the equivalent of "street cred" in the Reach. It isn't like it's game breaking; by the time you get around to uncovering the "secret starmap," you've already played out any reason to be forced to jump four systems to reach Weldry from Detroit. You have, by that point, earned the right to do it in two.
 

Timaeus

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What you probably also want, is unmarked system travel. There are many more star systems out there than are officially on the maps that can be traveled to, but it doesn't happen either because it's a bad system to charge at, or it was a system that was gone to in the past, but became uninhabited or quarantined later. A few of those uninhabited systems just might not be so uninhabited as claimed, and that is where the secret fun would be.
 

Packrat

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What you probably also want, is unmarked system travel. There are many more star systems out there than are officially on the maps that can be traveled to, but it doesn't happen either because it's a bad system to charge at, or it was a system that was gone to in the past, but became uninhabited or quarantined later. A few of those uninhabited systems just might not be so uninhabited as claimed, and that is where the secret fun would be.

Pretty much any star can be used to charge a jump drive, and there are tons of uninhabited stars that aren't listed on the map. The jumpships just stick to the known inhabited systems because that's where the money is, and we don't own our own jumpship. That being said, if someone were to wave enough money in their faces, point at a blank spot on the map, and say "I want to go here"... Well, in a sense they're mercenaries, too, so as long as the pay is enough to disrupt their normal routine (and I imagine it would be obscenely expensive), I can't think of a reason they wouldn't do it.

We'd just need to know where to go that's off the map, so "unlockable" star systems would certainly fit with how the setting works.
 
Last edited:

ThatGuyMontag

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What you probably also want, is unmarked system travel. There are many more star systems out there than are officially on the maps that can be traveled to, but it doesn't happen either because it's a bad system to charge at, or it was a system that was gone to in the past, but became uninhabited or quarantined later. A few of those uninhabited systems just might not be so uninhabited as claimed, and that is where the secret fun would be.

That would be an awesome touch! You could shave off travel time at the risk of special unmarked system events

Ooh, I like that a lot.
 

mjbroekman

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What you probably also want, is unmarked system travel. There are many more star systems out there than are officially on the maps that can be traveled to, but it doesn't happen either because it's a bad system to charge at, or it was a system that was gone to in the past, but became uninhabited or quarantined later. A few of those uninhabited systems just might not be so uninhabited as claimed, and that is where the secret fun would be.

Yes! This would also be extremely useful if the Star Map expands and we want to get "outside" the Periphery to other interesting places. @gruese 's interactive map is awesome, but some of these 'unmarked' systems are required for getting to/from places outside of the Inner Sphere like my home in the Chainelane Isles as well as the Hanseatic League and the Clan homeworlds. Without them, you end up with a few too many fortunate "misjumps" beyond 30 lyr for them to be considered coincidental.