Improved Italian Map

[Mattymooz]

NOTE : Coming soon to the Steam Workshop : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=451040975​

After my vision of a better England was so well recieved, I'm just going to start doing other places (mainly in Europe) that I think deserve more better provinces.

Please note that the idea of these changes is too add depth to an area and make it more accurate, but not to go completely indepth in certain areas with tiny provinces. They still need to be clickable and a reasonable size. I'm not going to make an area a mass of utrechts and maltas.

So, this time my focus was Italy (the part of italy not in the HRE, that has already been changed). Here is what I would change if I was Paradox:

The changes added a total of 5 new provinces. This resulted in 2 provinces for Aragon (1 in Sardinia and 1 in Sicily), 1 for Naples and 2 for the Pope

I have added the Lucano culture to split up the large Neapolitain blob.

I have also fiddled with the Base Tax for the area a bit, but mostly it has stayed relatively similar to Vanilla

Again I will be uploading it to the workshop soon, so you guys will be able to play with it. Any amendments would be great. My expertise is not in this area of the world so it could be horribly wrong!

 

[.Me]

I hope I do not seem annoying or prig but I really want to help you, so I want to point out some errors:

"Gran Sasso" is only the name of a mountain, is like if I rename Savoie "Monte Bianco". It makes no sense, and also the Gran Sasso d'Italia is not precisely there.
Also "Abruzzi" is the plural name to represent all the places in the ancient northern part of the territory of the ancient Samnium. Leave the name "Abruzzi" only in the area of Pescara does not make sense, is like to call the province of Rome, Italy. I suggest to rename "Abruzzi" ---> Pescara; and "Gran Sasso" ---> Marsica (from the ancient samnitic tribe of "Marsi" named from the italic ancient god of War, the people of marsica are still today called "Marsi".) and the province's capital of Marsica is Avezzano.

Apulia is not "Lucano" (Also,"Lucano" is singular, "Lucano" means "a Lucan", intended one person who lives in Lucania... I suggest to use the english form Lucanian to avoid the declination problems...) Also, Lucania and Apulia do not have much in common in terms of culture, to be correct, all the souther Italy is very similar from Naples to Cosenza, and the old vanilla Neapolitan culture blob was not so wrong... But if you want to represent the small difference between the people of the old "Kingdom" you must change some thing:
- Bari and Capitanata are distinct in "Barese" (in Bari) and Daunian (in Capitanata) dialect, between them they have a lot in common, and can be represented in game with the "Apulian" culture, in Bari and Capitanata, and the primary tag must be Apulia.
- Lucanian culture must be in Cosenza and Lucania, and the primary tag must be Calabria (rename Bruttium in Calabria).

Less important things:
- All the nations of Apulian, Lucanian or Neapolitan culture must can form the kingdom of Naples via decision.
- The kingdom of Naples and the kingdom of Sicily must can form the Two Sicilies via decision.

Also:
Corsican dialect is a variant of the tuscan one, I think it would be fair to make the Corsica of Tuscan culture
Then:
I LOVE you for the dalmatian culture and the venetian culture in Istria.

 

[Mattymooz]

I hope I do not seem annoying or prig but I really want to help you, so I want to point out some errors:

"Gran Sasso" is only the name of a mountain, is like if I rename Savoie "Monte Bianco". It makes no sense, and also the Gran Sasso d'Italia is not precisely there.
Also "Abruzzi" is the plural name to represent all the places in the ancient northern part of the territory of the ancient Samnium. Leave the name "Abruzzi" only in the area of Pescara does not make sense, is like to call the province of Rome, Italy. I suggest to rename "Abruzzi" ---> Pescara; and "Gran Sasso" ---> Marsica (from the ancient samnitic tribe of "Marsi" named from the italic ancient god of War, the people of marsica are still today called "Marsi".) and the province's capital of Marsica is Avezzano.

Gran Sasso I heard was the name of the Plataeu that covers most of the area. However, that was wikipedia so i dunno It's capital is currently L'Aquila, is that not right? I thought it was pretty historically important? I'll change Abruzzi though!

Apulia is not "Lucano" (Also,"Lucano" is singular, "Lucano" means "a Lucan", intended one person who lives in Lucania... I suggest to use the english form Lucanian to avoid the declination problems...) Also, Lucania and Apulia do not have much in common in terms of culture, to be correct, all the souther Italy is very similar from Naples to Cosenza, and the old vanilla Neapolitan culture blob was not so wrong... But if you want to represent the small difference between the people of the old "Kingdom" you must change some thing:
- Bari and Capitanata are distinct in "Barese" (in Bari) and Daunian (in Capitanata) dialect, between them they have a lot in common, and can be represented in game with the "Apulian" culture, in Bari and Capitanata, and the primary tag must be Apulia.
- Lucanian culture must be in Cosenza and Lucania, and the primary tag must be Calabria (rename Bruttium in Calabria).

I only really wanted to add one culture, and this image told me that it should be Lucano or Pugliese (but Lucano sounded cooler). Bruttium is called Bruttium instead of Calabria as it was know as Bruttium when it was an independent country, so surely Bruttium is correct?

Less important things:
- All the nations of Apulian, Lucanian or Neapolitan culture must can form the kingdom of Naples via decision.
- The kingdom of Naples and the kingdom of Sicily must can form the Two Sicilies via decision.

Again, same thing as florence -> tuscany for two sicilies, is it really that important given the fact that there wasn't much of a difference?

 

[Zylathas]

I don't see the need for two sicilies, simply because it was formed after the timeframe.

 

[Grand Historian]

I don't see the need for two sicilies, simply because it was formed after the timeframe.

I'm pretty sure the Napoleonic Wars and 1816 were within the timeframe (albeit too late to be very relevant, and as a tag it wouldn't really do much different from either Sicily or Naples).

 

[Zylathas]

I'm pretty sure the Napoleonic Wars and 1816 were within the timeframe (albeit too late to be very relevant, and as a tag it wouldn't really do much different from either Sicily or Naples).

Excuses I was thinking the game ended at 1806, never finished the game so wouldn't know the end date exactly

 

[.Me]

Gran Sasso I heard was the name of the Plataeu that covers most of the area. However, that was wikipedia so i dunno It's capital is currently L'Aquila, is that not right? I thought it was pretty historically important? I'll change Abruzzi though!

I only really wanted to add one culture, and this image told me that it should be Lucano or Pugliese (but Lucano sounded cooler). Bruttium is called Bruttium instead of Calabria as it was know as Bruttium when it was an independent country, so surely Bruttium is correct?


Again, same thing as florence -> tuscany for two sicilies, is it really that important given the fact that there wasn't much of a difference?

No, it does not cover much of the area the Gran Sasso is a mountain (2912 mt) and his Plataeu is called "Campo Imperatore" (Emperor field's, 1800 mt), maybe you have confused between the Gran Sasso proper and the actual "Gran Sasso and Monti della Laga National Park", that, in fact, cover much of the area. Yes, today the Abruzzo's capital is l'Aquila, but until 1863 it was called only Aquila, so, if you want to mantain it as capital, you must remove a "L"

The fact is that is impossible to add only one culture in southern Italy, if you want to break the Neapolitan culture you have to add two more, Minimum. Or don't break it. Otherwise it would not make sense, for example it would be like if in the vanilla there had been a great culture called "Western Slavic" that cover Bohemia, Poland and the balkans. And you add only the slovak to break up this culture, but leave poland, bohemia, and the rest of west slavic culture. Or, another example, if you add the Leicestershire culture to break up English culture, but you leave the rest as "English".
The difference between Two Sicilies and Naples/Sicily is the same difference between England and Great Britain. It is of little importance just because it is a nation that rarely would be born in the game... So It can be left out. But wanting to be picky, yes, it is pretty important

I don't see the need for two sicilies, simply because it was formed after the timeframe.

The term "Two Sicilies" was used the first time by Alfonso V of Aragon (1396 – 1458) and in any case, Germany never existed during this timeframe. Scandinavia was never formed ever, Hindustan can be traced only in some sovereign titling of the mughal emperors, Egypt was never formed during this timeframe, etc...The purpose of the game is objectively change history, or live it. If something is partly historical of historically based, it may be added, I think.

 

[Mattymooz]

No, it does not cover much of the area the Gran Sasso is a mountain (2912 mt) and his Plataeu is called "Campo Imperatore" (Emperor field's, 1800 mt), maybe you have confused between the Gran Sasso proper and the actual "Gran Sasso and Monti della Laga National Park", that, in fact, cover much of the area. Yes, today the Abruzzo's capital is l'Aquila, but until 1863 it was called only Aquila, so, if you want to mantain it as capital, you must remove a "L"

The fact is that is impossible to add only one culture in southern Italy, if you want to break the Neapolitan culture you have to add two more, Minimum. Or don't break it. Otherwise it would not make sense, for example it would be like if in the vanilla there had been a great culture called "Western Slavic" that cover Bohemia, Poland and the balkans. And you add only the slovak to break up this culture, but leave poland, bohemia, and the rest of west slavic culture. Or, another example, if you add the Leicestershire culture to break up English culture, but you leave the rest as "English".
The difference between Two Sicilies and Naples/Sicily is the same difference between England and Great Britain. It is of little importance just because it is a nation that rarely would be born in the game... So It can be left out. But wanting to be picky, yes, it is pretty important

OK, I'll change l'aquila

And your analogy of cultures makes no sense. Leicestershire doesn't have it's own culture. It's more like adding northern as a culture, or west-country (the stereotypical farmer accent) as a culture, both of which I have done.

The Difference between England and Great Britain is stupid as well. England is a kingdom, a sub division of the UK. Great britain is the name of an island on which you can find the majority (but not all, because of Lundy, Isles of scilly, Isle of wight, hedbrides etc) of the kingdom of Scotland, Wales and England. You can't compare a Geographical area to a country.

If you mean England and the UK, then yes, there is a difference. Scotland (as well as wales and northern ireland to a lesser extent) have a large independence movement. As far as I am aware, there has never been a poll for independence on the isle of Sicily, nor has there ever been an independence party that got the majority of the votes (56/59) in a general election

 

[.Me]

OK, I'll change l'aquila

And your analogy of cultures makes no sense. Leicestershire doesn't have it's own culture. It's more like adding northern as a culture, or west-country (the stereotypical farmer accent) as a culture, both of which I have done.

The Difference between England and Great Britain is stupid as well. England is a kingdom, a sub division of the UK. Great britain is the name of an island on which you can find the majority (but not all, because of Lundy, Isles of scilly, Isle of wight, hedbrides etc) of the kingdom of Scotland, Wales and England. You can't compare a Geographical area to a country.

If you mean England and the UK, then yes, there is a difference. Scotland (as well as wales and northern ireland to a lesser extent) have a large independence movement. As far as I am aware, there has never been a poll for independence on the isle of Sicily, nor has there ever been an independence party that got the majority of the votes (56/59) in a general election

Is a strange example in fact, maybe I explained myself badly (because my English is not the very good)... But I think that the dialect of leicestershire has the minimum features that differentiate it from any other, as well as each place has those cultural feature that make it unique (if it is not so, let's pretend that it is so in this example... ). Add in the game the Lucanian culture is exactly like adding the culture of "leicestershire" only in Leicester and leave the rest "English". It is wrong and make no sense. If you want to focus on the small difference betwenn Lucanians and Neapolitanians you need to focus also on the difference between Apulian culture and Neapolitan (and between Apulian culture and Lucanian one...) etc... otherwise it would be simply wrong and nothing else.
I've spent most of my summers between Apulia, Calabria, and Naples in the past years, and I do trekking in Abruzzo (I'm from Rome), and one of my best friends is from Sicily, I know what I say, I know those places.
About England and Uk I mean only in game's terms! England is similar to Uk exactly like Sicily/Naples is similar to Two Siciles. Why put in the game the Uk if England is so similar? If I said that it is not essential is simply because it seems that I'm asking too much for Italy (although it would be nice to represented it in a truly detailed and deep way), but I say it anyway to be fair, then it's up to you, it's your mod.

PS: you're wrong, the vast majority of Sicilian feel themselves of Sicilan nationality and then Italian. also, the sicilian language is not a dialect, but a separate language, in turn divided into three main dialects, four, if we calculate the "gallo-italic" of Sicily, enclaves of "Lombard" language that whose speakers are said to be descendants of the Norman settler. I speak the Roman dialect and i can't understand a single world of Sicilian, and there is a separatist party active from the second world war. There is no real widespread desire for secession, but the Sicilian nationalism is very popular.

However I did not want to put on a debate about this, do as you like, your mod is very well done and I wish you the best for your work