Improved Italian Map

[Mattymooz]

NOTE : Coming soon to the Steam Workshop : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=451040975​

After my vision of a better England was so well recieved, I'm just going to start doing other places (mainly in Europe) that I think deserve more better provinces.

Please note that the idea of these changes is too add depth to an area and make it more accurate, but not to go completely indepth in certain areas with tiny provinces. They still need to be clickable and a reasonable size. I'm not going to make an area a mass of utrechts and maltas.

So, this time my focus was Italy (the part of italy not in the HRE, that has already been changed). Here is what I would change if I was Paradox:

The changes added a total of 5 new provinces. This resulted in 2 provinces for Aragon (1 in Sardinia and 1 in Sicily), 1 for Naples and 2 for the Pope

I have added the Lucano culture to split up the large Neapolitain blob.

I have also fiddled with the Base Tax for the area a bit, but mostly it has stayed relatively similar to Vanilla

Again I will be uploading it to the workshop soon, so you guys will be able to play with it. Any amendments would be great. My expertise is not in this area of the world so it could be horribly wrong!

 

[Zylathas]

Holy shit.. that looks good

I am not a huge knowledge-base of the area either but I know that the papal states had a lot of issues with managing it's vassals in the era of 1400-1520, perhaps it's worthwhile to look into adding one or two extra vassals for the papal states? I think Romagna would be a great one and possibly Umbria (perugia).

"During the Renaissance, the papal territory expanded greatly, notably under the popes Alexander VI and Julius II. The pope became one of Italy's most important secular rulers as well as the head of the Church, signing treaties with other sovereigns and fighting wars. In practice, though, most of the Papal States was still only nominally controlled by the pope, and much of the territory was ruled by minor princes. Control was always contested; indeed it took until the 16th century for the pope to have any genuine control over all his territories."

Another option is to add independent cores to the various papal states and add a modifiers that increase revolt risk and decrease tax income in that region. It could give some more incentive for the papal states to manage it's states.

Besides this (if you are into event-modding) you could look into adding some Orsini-Colonna related events that increase revolt risk if they do not like the chosen pope. (and give major revolt risk if the papal states pope is not from the other family)

You could then add a decision that removes these modifiers when the cores have expired.

 

[Mattymooz]

Holy shit.. that looks good

I am not a huge knowledge-base of the area either but I know that the papal states had a lot of issues with managing it's vassals in the era of 1400-1520, perhaps it's worthwhile to look into adding one or two extra vassals for the papal states? I think Romagna would be a great one and possibly Umbria (perugia).

"During the Renaissance, the papal territory expanded greatly, notably under the popes Alexander VI and Julius II. The pope became one of Italy's most important secular rulers as well as the head of the Church, signing treaties with other sovereigns and fighting wars. In practice, though, most of the Papal States was still only nominally controlled by the pope, and much of the territory was ruled by minor princes. Control was always contested; indeed it took until the 16th century for the pope to have any genuine control over all his territories."

Another option is to add independent cores to the various papal states and add a modifiers that increase revolt risk and decrease tax income in that region. It could give some more incentive for the papal states to manage it's states.

Besides this (if you are into event-modding) you could look into adding some Orsini-Colonna related events that increase revolt risk if they do not like the chosen pope. (and give major revolt risk if the papal states pope is not from the other family)

You could then add a decision that removes these modifiers when the cores have expired.

I have no idea where to begin with map modding! I will have a look at the small papal vassals though!

 

[Zylathas]

I have no idea where to begin with map modding! I will have a look at the small papal vassals though!

I would just make them all independent to be honest, that's probably what will reflect the papal states best. Only Rome + Avignon should be owned by the pope.

Perhaps to off-set this give the papacy government form extra diplo slots or something. Or atleast make those provinces (Umbria, Spoleto, Romagna) vassals and make Vitello + Ancona high autonomy provinces.

 

[Grand Historian]

Wow, another great job! I do agree that the Pope should probably have Perugia as a vassal, but carving up Papal territory into independent nations is really going to throw off the balance of power in Italy, make Rome super easy to conquer, and just won't be that good altogether.

Also, Salento, believe it or not, was actually still Greek/Orthodox by 1444. It was being quickly converted and would be by as early as 1470, but the majority of the populace was still Greek. Also, what's Lucanian's primary tag?

 

[Mattymooz]

Wow, another great job! I do agree that the Pope should probably have Perugia as a vassal, but carving up Papal territory into independent nations is really going to throw off the balance of power in Italy, make Rome super easy to conquer, and just won't be that good altogether.

Also, Salento, believe it or not, was actually still Greek/Orthodox by 1444. It was being quickly converted and would be by as early as 1470, but the majority of the populace was still Greek. Also, what's Lucanian's primary tag?

Salento is Greek but not yet Orthodox, I will change that in a sec

Lucano currently still has Naples as it's Primary tag as I haven't changed it yet, but the chances are the tag will be Apulia

 

[Zylathas]

Wow, another great job! I do agree that the Pope should probably have Perugia as a vassal, but carving up Papal territory into independent nations is really going to throw off the balance of power in Italy, make Rome super easy to conquer, and just won't be that good altogether.

Also, Salento, believe it or not, was actually still Greek/Orthodox by 1444. It was being quickly converted and would be by as early as 1470, but the majority of the populace was still Greek. Also, what's Lucanian's primary tag?

I am not sure if that make Rome easier to conquer... And those nations will not be independent but vassals, that is actually a defacto boost for the papal states early game. ^^ It would reflect the historical situation of that nation much better then it does now though.

 

[Grand Historian]

I am not sure if that make Rome easier to conquer... And those nations will not be independent but vassals, that is actually a defacto boost for the papal states early game. ^^ It would reflect the historical situation of that nation much better then it does now though.

Well, if the Papacy has only two provinces, but it's vassals have about five or six total, then it's going to immediately result in independence wars by 1445. I can get behind one or two, but stripping away all but two of their provinces is a bit extreme. Increasing starting Autonomy for most of them would be better, as though they were 'vassals', they very rarely had any interactions with nations other than the Papal States to begin with, and it would also diminish the amount of tags necessary (they weren't really that notable or rebellious either, unlike the rowdy French duchies).

 

[Zylathas]

Well, if the Papacy has only two provinces, but it's vassals have about five or six total, then it's going to immediately result in independence wars by 1445. I can get behind one or two, but stripping away all but two of their provinces is a bit extreme. Increasing starting Autonomy for most of them would be better, as though they were 'vassals', they very rarely had any interactions with nations other than the Papal States to begin with, and it would also diminish the amount of tags necessary (they weren't really that notable or rebellious either, unlike the rowdy French duchies).

Yeah that's why I suggested making Romagna & Perugia (spoleto + Umbria) independent. Ancona + vitello high autonomy.

 

[Grand Historian]

Yeah that's why I suggested making Romagna & Perugia (spoleto + Umbria) independent. Ancona + vitello high autonomy.

Perugia I can get behind, but I'm not certain there's much of a historical basis for Romagna.

Also, and this is a bit off topic, but should the Papal States become the primary nation of Umbrian? It makes a lot more sense than Urbino.

 

[Zylathas]

Perugia I can get behind, but I'm not certain there's much of a historical basis for Romagna.

Also, and this is a bit off topic, but should the Papal States become the primary nation of Umbrian? It makes a lot more sense than Urbino.

Romagna was filled with small lords trying to take control of the region and generally did not bother to help the pope out. (Like paying taxes) But as we cannot represent these small lords (because they are too small) I would instead suggest that we represent them as one entinity that is disloyal to the pope. As in the end, they were all disloyal.

Only after the reign's of Cesare Borgia and Julius II the Romagna became more loyal to the pope, but after Julius II the pope generally had much more power in the papal states also because they crushed most of the power the Orsini and Colonna had.

 

[Mattymooz]

Perugia I can get behind, but I'm not certain there's much of a historical basis for Romagna.

Also, and this is a bit off topic, but should the Papal States become the primary nation of Umbrian? It makes a lot more sense than Urbino.

Actually I have made the primary tag Spoleto, a releasable tag that has cores on most of western Papal States and also Northern Naples (Umbria, Spoleto, Ancona, Gran Sasso & Abruzzi)

Also, I have made Perugia a vassal (in the Umbria province) as well as give Ancona, Spoleto and Ravenna some Local Autonomy

 

[Grand Historian]

Romagna was filled with small lords trying to take control of the region and generally did not bother to help the pope out. (Like paying taxes) But as we cannot represent these small lords (because they are too small) I would instead suggest that we represent them as one entinity that is disloyal to the pope. As in the end, they were all disloyal.

Only after the reign's of Cesare Borgia and Julius II the Romagna became more loyal to the pope, but after Julius II the pope generally had much more power in the papal states also because they crushed most of the power the Orsini and Colonna had.

It would just be better represented as 100% Autonomy. There's not much basis for the tag, and the more there are the slower he game runs.

 

[Basileios Makedon]

NO SAN MARINO??!!! HERESY!!!!

 

[Vaximillian]

NO SAN MARINO??!!! HERESY!!!!

It doesn't deserve being on the map. It's too small and never did a thing.

There's not much basis for the tag, and the more there are the slower he game runs.

This oh so very much. *cough*M&T*cough*

 

[Itchel]

NO SAN MARINO??!!! HERESY!!!!

It doesn't deserve being on the map. It's too small and never did a thing.


This oh so very much. *cough*M&T*cough*

I'm all in for more provinces and tags which are historically accurate but... If there was a san marino then it might just blob innacurately

 

[Basileios Makedon]

I'm all in for more provinces and tags which are historically accurate but... If there was a san marino then it might just blob innacurately

Well it could have +10000% hostile coring cost and -1000000% army morale

 

[Itchel]

Maybe a modifier for any city state that adds -2/4 unrest, +10% tax efficiency and +2 diplomatic reputation. But once you get a second province that modifier is removed, Simular to free cities in the HRE except special for san marino or any city state that would be added(IF they were added)

 

[ShadowCammy]

Very nice.

I have a question about how you make these (I know I could make a post but why would I when I can ask someone who's good at it already?).
Well, how do you make these? Whether just editing province shapes or then adding new ones.

 

[Vaximillian]

This thread still rules supreme.