Improved HRE map

[Mattymooz]

NOTE : Coming soon to the Steam Workshop : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=451040975​

After my vision of a better England was so well recieved, I'm just going to start doing other places (mainly in Europe) that I think deserve more better provinces.

Please note that the idea of these changes is too add depth to an area and make it more accurate, but not to go completely indepth in certain areas with tiny provinces. They still need to be clickable and a reasonable size. I'm not going to make an area a mass of utrechts and maltas.

So, this time my focus was the HRE (Everything but the Lowlands, check out my other thread for those changes). Here is what I would change if I was Paradox:

The changes added a total of 18 new provinces. This resulted in 3 new provinces for Austria, 1 for Venice, 1 for Brunswick, 1 for Saxony, 1 for Savoy, 1 for Mr Popeman, 1 for new tag Julich, 1 for new tag Berg, 1 for new tag Strazbourg, 1 for new tag Piombino, 1 for new tag Bologna, 1 for new tag Zollern, 1 for new tag Hohenlohe, 1 for new tag Montfort, 1 for new tag Chur and 1 for new tag Basel.

There have also been new tags added for Geneva, Valais and Fribourg added.

Spoiler: New Provinces Images

I have added Slovene culture, but that is it. All the culture borders have stayed similar to Vanilla

I am also in the process of looking over the Base Tax for the area, though I plan to not change very much. As all the countries are now a lot smaller, there should be more development occurring.

Again I will be uploading it to the workshop soon, so you guys will be able to play with it. Any amendments would be great. My expertise is not in this area of the world so it could be horribly wrong!

 

[Nikicaga]

Great changes ! HRE is far more accurate than vanilla , but hasn't been made a complete mess of a single province being split in 7 , like in MEIOU .
Some changes on top of my mind :
1. Wurttenberg is now an OPM , while it was historicly much stronger than surrounding OPMs . In 1441 it split into Wurttenberg-Sttutgart and Wurttenberg-Urach . Why not ignore the split (ruled by 2 brothers and reunited in 1492 ) and add province of Urach to Wurttenberg
2. Province + tag (bischopic) of Worms ?
3. Bavaria should be split into several states ( look in MEIOU for details )
4. Can you show the culture map for Slovene ? Cilli , Krain , Gorz , probably Karnten and maybe Friuli should be Slovene . Also , change Istria to one of italian cultures, it was such until 1945 .
5. Provice + tag of Babenhausen-Mindelheim-Cellmünz ? If there ever was a name that inspired WC it is this one ( if only to have a name on the map )
6. Province + tag of Saluzzo ?
7. Revolters for Brescia , Verona and Treviso ? ( Aquilea too , dhe already has files , just add cores on Friuli and Gorz )

 

[Mattymooz]

Great changes ! HRE is far more accurate than vanilla , but hasn't been made a complete mess of a single province being split in 7 , like in MEIOU .
Some changes on top of my mind :
1. Wurttenberg is now an OPM , while it was historicly much stronger than surrounding OPMs . In 1441 it split into Wurttenberg-Sttutgart and Wurttenberg-Urach . Why not ignore the split (ruled by 2 brothers and reunited in 1492 ) and add province of Urach to Wurttenberg

As "Wuttemberg is already quite a small province, I'd rather not (especially considering the location of Stuttgart and Bad Urach). I'll probably just buff the province.

2. Province + tag (bischopic) of Worms ?

Were they that important? I mean, Pfalz is quite big so splitting it in half (along with a bit of koblenz) is fine, but where they that large to have their own province?

3. Bavaria should be split into several states ( look in MEIOU for details )

eh, I already split up Switzerland and I want there to be some larger nations in the hre that may be able to contest Austria. MAYBE, I'm not sold on this yet.

4. Can you show the culture map for Slovene ? Cilli , Krain , Gorz , probably Karnten and maybe Friuli should be Slovene . Also , change Istria to one of italian cultures, it was such until 1945 .

Slovene is just Cilli Krain and Gorz. If I change karnten it will make the culture map ugly so I will probably just change friuli. I will probably make istria venetian.

5. Provice + tag of Babenhausen-Mindelheim-Cellmünz ? If there ever was a name that inspired WC it is this one ( if only to have a name on the map )

Wut, all I can find on this is something about a railway on German Wikipedia lol

6. Province + tag of Saluzzo ?

Tried to add this in when I did the redraw but Cuneo is wuite small as is and looks a bit weird with that chunk out of it

7. Revolters for Brescia , Verona and Treviso ? ( Aquilea too , dhe already has files , just add cores on Friuli and Gorz )

Aquilea is already there in Vanilla . I don't have a good idea for a revolter tag for the rest of mainland venice though, suggestions appreciated

 

[talilu]

Friuli shouldn't be Slovene really, it was distinct from the Venetians by it's Friulian language, but never closer to the Slavs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language


While we are talking about Friulian, the other Rhaeto Romance culture could see some love too, the Romansh people of Switzerland. The province of Graubünden and maybe Waldstatte (not entirely sure on this) should be Romansh or anything closer to a Romance culture. They definitely weren't German.

Also about Istria, since you are the main developer of the map, you should decide which culture it has since professionals can't decide about what Istriot language is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istriot_language#Classification

(i may seem like stalking all your posts but i just like the effort you put into this lol )

 

[Mattymooz]

Friuli shouldn't be Slovene really, it was distinct from the Venetians by it's Friulian language, but never closer to the Slavs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language


While we are talking about Friulian, the other Rhaeto Romance culture could see some love too, the Romansh people of Switzerland. The province of Graubünden and maybe Waldstatte (not entirely sure on this) should be Romansh or anything closer to a Romance culture. They definitely weren't German.

Also about Istria, since you are the main developer of the map, you should decide which culture it has since professionals can't decide about what Istriot language is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istriot_language#Classification

(i may seem like stalking all your posts but i just like the effort you put into this lol )

I'm guessing Romansh would be in italian then yea?

And the stalking is fine I want this to be as accurate as possible so I'm definitely considering all suggestions, the more the merrier

 

[Nikicaga]

1. That should work fine enough .
2. Well , probably in the same range as the Swiss OPMs or Augsburg , so it should suffice a province + tag ( I think EU 3 even had a Worms province )
3. Well Austria itself wasn't very united
From Wiki :

Spoiler

Albert III and Leopold III: A house divided (1365–1457)
See also: Albertinian Line and Leopoldian line
Almost the entire 15th Century was a confusion of estate and family disputes, which considerably weakened the political and economic importance of the Habsburg lands. It was not until 1453 in the reign of Frederick V the Peaceful (1457–1493) that the country (at least the core territories) would be finally united again. Rudolph IV's brothers Albert III the Pigtail and Leopold III the Just quarreled ceaselessly and eventually agreed to split the realm in the Treaty of Neuberg in 1379, which was to result in further schisms later. Altogether this resulted in three separate jurisdictions.

Lower Austrian Territories or Niederösterreich (Upper and Lower Austria)
Albertinian Line – extinct 1457, passed to Leopoldians
Inner Austrian Territories or Innerösterreich (Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, and the Austrian Littoral of Istria and Trieste)
Leopoldian Line then Elder Ernestine Line 1406–1457, continuing as Archduchy of Austria.
Further Austrian Territories or Vorderösterreich (Tyrol, Vorarlberg and the Swabian and Alsatian territories)
Leopoldian Line then Junior Tyrolean Line 1406–1490, passed back to Leopoldians

That means we have 3 Habsburg dukes , their tags probably Austria (Wien , Linz , Ostmark , Bruck ), Styria(Steiermark , Graz , Karnten Gorz , Cilli and Krain ) and Tyrol ( Tirol , Sudtirol , Trent and Sungdau )
OFC , the Bavarian ones are neutral to hostile , squabling over land , and the Habs are all RM'd and allied , but it's still better than one Megaustria .
5. It was realy a 3 villages = country , HRE stile . Small and insignificant , but it does exist in the period and has a cool and unpronouncable name , just a joke request
6. Ok , I haven't seen how this part looks in your map , but in HRE , the wierder you look , the better you do .
7. I know Aquilea has files , but it doesn't have any cores in 1444 or later , so they must be added ( Changing Friuli to Slovene seems bad now , becouse Aquilea could't appear anywhere )
Brescia should have a core on Brescia
Treviso and Verona should have cores on their respective provinces and Padua
Some other things I noticed in Italy :
1. Brecia is rather large compared to other Italian provinces , maybe add Bergamo ?
2. Move Urbino futher inland , and out of it's coast and a part of Ancona and Ravenna make provice + country of Rimini ( Historicly significant , adding it would make a fair representation of Romagna , as other independant states ( Imola , Cesena , Forli etc. ) are simply too small , but Rimini , Ravenna , Bologna and Urbino are all represented .
3. San Marino and Monaco aren't in . Monaco at least was large enough before the French Revolution ( also including Menton ) so it could be squeezed in between 2 large provinces with minimal enlargement
San Marino is much smaller and in a already crowded area , but in 1444 it's been around for more than a millenia , so can be interesting to play , especialy with some diplomatic/pacifist Country ideas
4. Corsica should be split into 2 : Haute Corse ( Capital Bastia ) and Corse de Sud ( Capital Aiaccio )
5. Sardinia too should be split into Cagliary and Sassary
That's all i could think of now , i'll post if I see something new .

 

[talilu]

By the way, did you make Trent Austrian or Lombard/Venetian? I see it has Italian majority now but that means almost nothing for 1444. Maybe Nikicaga nows about it since he has some good knowledge about the Italian region.

YES YES for Monaco and San Marino!

 

[Vaximillian]

San Marino and Monaco should join Andorra and Liechtenstein in the club of tiny countries everybody and their mother seem to have a hard-on for but will never appear on the map.
Because really.

 

[Nikicaga]

Not sure about Trento. , don't realy know the demographics , but it should probably be Lombard to represent the Italians in Tirol .
Some other things I remebered :
1. The Savoia region can be made a lot more intresting by adding it's OPM neighbours . Monferat is in , so only Saluzzo and Asti remain . Both might make the region too crowded , but you should be able to add at least one .
2. I looked up more on Sardinia , and found this :

Split It into 3 provinces ( merge Galeura into Logudoro and make Sassari the capital .
You might want to make Sardinia Aragon's PU and vassal instead of direct rule , to represent certain level of autonomy .
3. Genoa should be more powerful , it was Venice's rival , not a punching bag . While it still had only one province in Italy , it would often get exiled to Corsica or Crimea . Look at the current divison of Liguria :

So Genoa + La Spezia = Genoa province
Split Albenga into Savona and Olbenia ( Imperia was founded by Duce out of Olbenia and some other nearby city ) and add Monaco between Nice and Olbenia , so the 2 don't border . That should be large enough for a province + country
4. Trent should be a bishopic , a vassal of Tirol or Austria ( depends if you take my sugestion for split Austria )
5. Have you reworked south Italy ? Add at least Benevento as an enclave for the Pope .
6. Swiss culture ? Rheinlander Switzerland always made me wonder are the people of Basel realy that closer to people of Köln than to e.g. Bavarians .
7. Sicily with only 2 provinces is very bad in vanilla , since it was one of the richest places in Italy . Here is a modern map of divisions :

So Messina and Palermo are there respective provinces , Syacuse + Ragusa = Syracuse , Agrigento + Caltanisseta = Agrigento , Catania + Enna = Enna , Trapani might be in Palermo , or it's own province . Syracuse and/or Agrigento should be Greek culture and orthodox .

@Vaximillian Andorra is large enough for a province at least , it wasn't independant untill much later , Lichtenstein is still basicly a Swiss vassal . Monaco was much larger in 1444-1792 than now , enough to be independant , and was and is 10 times richer than other 3 combined . San Marino is the smallest of them , and no military importance , but is likable enough to be a popular idea , but adding it is bad becouse we already have 4 smallish provinces in Romagna

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

How is it everything OP suggests is actually a really good idea. Keep it up mattymooz

 

[Mattymooz]

2. Well , probably in the same range as the Swiss OPMs or Augsburg , so it should suffice a province + tag ( I think EU 3 even had a Worms province )

So, something like this? In the next update

3. Well Austria itself wasn't very united
From Wiki :

Spoiler

Albert III and Leopold III: A house divided (1365–1457)
See also: Albertinian Line and Leopoldian line
Almost the entire 15th Century was a confusion of estate and family disputes, which considerably weakened the political and economic importance of the Habsburg lands. It was not until 1453 in the reign of Frederick V the Peaceful (1457–1493) that the country (at least the core territories) would be finally united again. Rudolph IV's brothers Albert III the Pigtail and Leopold III the Just quarreled ceaselessly and eventually agreed to split the realm in the Treaty of Neuberg in 1379, which was to result in further schisms later. Altogether this resulted in three separate jurisdictions.

Lower Austrian Territories or Niederösterreich (Upper and Lower Austria)
Albertinian Line – extinct 1457, passed to Leopoldians
Inner Austrian Territories or Innerösterreich (Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, and the Austrian Littoral of Istria and Trieste)
Leopoldian Line then Elder Ernestine Line 1406–1457, continuing as Archduchy of Austria.
Further Austrian Territories or Vorderösterreich (Tyrol, Vorarlberg and the Swabian and Alsatian territories)
Leopoldian Line then Junior Tyrolean Line 1406–1490, passed back to Leopoldians

That means we have 3 Habsburg dukes , their tags probably Austria (Wien , Linz , Ostmark , Bruck ), Styria(Steiermark , Graz , Karnten Gorz , Cilli and Krain ) and Tyrol ( Tirol , Sudtirol , Trent and Sungdau )
OFC , the Bavarian ones are neutral to hostile , squabling over land , and the Habs are all RM'd and allied , but it's still better than one Megaustria .

Still not a fan of breaking up the only real defence for the HRE

6. Ok , I haven't seen how this part looks in your map , but in HRE , the wierder you look , the better you do .

This was my first draft of this area, but Saluzzo looked weird, Alessandria was too small and Bergamo also looked a bit funny

7. I know Aquilea has files , but it doesn't have any cores in 1444 or later , so they must be added ( Changing Friuli to Slovene seems bad now , becouse Aquilea could't appear anywhere )
Brescia should have a core on Brescia
Treviso and Verona should have cores on their respective provinces and Padua

When was the last time you played? Aquelia has had cores for a while now (since El Dorado maybe?)
And adding 3 seperate tags for releaseable nations there seems \a bit excessive imo, considering each tag added makes the game a ton slower compared to adding a new province (hence why there hasn't been florence and tuscany for ages)

Some other things I noticed in Italy :
1. Brecia is rather large compared to other Italian provinces , maybe add Bergamo ?
2. Move Urbino futher inland , and out of it's coast and a part of Ancona and Ravenna make provice + country of Rimini ( Historicly significant , adding it would make a fair representation of Romagna , as other independant states ( Imola , Cesena , Forli etc. ) are simply too small , but Rimini , Ravenna , Bologna and Urbino are all represented .
3. San Marino and Monaco aren't in . Monaco at least was large enough before the French Revolution ( also including Menton ) so it could be squeezed in between 2 large provinces with minimal enlargement
San Marino is much smaller and in a already crowded area , but in 1444 it's been around for more than a millenia , so can be interesting to play , especialy with some diplomatic/pacifist Country ideas
4. Corsica should be split into 2 : Haute Corse ( Capital Bastia ) and Corse de Sud ( Capital Aiaccio )
5. Sardinia too should be split into Cagliary and Sassary
That's all i could think of now , i'll post if I see something new .

1. See above.
2. The provinces there are so small already though
3. Monaco as a tag is a maybe, I may add in a province though as Genoa needs a buff and just give it a releasable tag, I'll have a look. San Marino is a definite no as that area is busy and they did nothing of importance other than sit there since it was founded pretty much.
4. Maybe, corsica wasn't very rich though and didn't have the high of a population (afaik)
5. It already is in Vanilla

By the way, did you make Trent Austrian or Lombard/Venetian? I see it has Italian majority now but that means almost nothing for 1444. Maybe Nikicaga nows about it since he has some good knowledge about the Italian region.

YES YES for Monaco and San Marino!

Trent is Lombard

San Marino and Monaco should join Andorra and Liechtenstein in the club of tiny countries everybody and their mother seem to have a hard-on for but will never appear on the map.
Because really.

Andorra is already in Lietchenstien definitely shouldn't be though considering it didn't exist till after the end of the game!

Not sure about Trento. , don't realy know the demographics , but it should probably be Lombard to represent the Italians in Tirol .
Some other things I remebered :
1. The Savoia region can be made a lot more intresting by adding it's OPM neighbours . Monferat is in , so only Saluzzo and Asti remain . Both might make the region too crowded , but you should be able to add at least one .
2. I looked up more on Sardinia , and found this :

Split It into 3 provinces ( merge Galeura into Logudoro and make Sassari the capital .
You might want to make Sardinia Aragon's PU and vassal instead of direct rule , to represent certain level of autonomy .
3. Genoa should be more powerful , it was Venice's rival , not a punching bag . While it still had only one province in Italy , it would often get exiled to Corsica or Crimea . Look at the current divison of Liguria :

So Genoa + La Spezia = Genoa province
Split Albenga into Savona and Olbenia ( Imperia was founded by Duce out of Olbenia and some other nearby city ) and add Monaco between Nice and Olbenia , so the 2 don't border . That should be large enough for a province + country
4. Trent should be a bishopic , a vassal of Tirol or Austria ( depends if you take my sugestion for split Austria )
5. Have you reworked south Italy ? Add at least Benevento as an enclave for the Pope .
6. Swiss culture ? Rheinlander Switzerland always made me wonder are the people of Basel realy that closer to people of Köln than to e.g. Bavarians .
7. Sicily with only 2 provinces is very bad in vanilla , since it was one of the richest places in Italy . Here is a modern map of divisions :

So Messina and Palermo are there respective provinces , Syacuse + Ragusa = Syracuse , Agrigento + Caltanisseta = Agrigento , Catania + Enna = Enna , Trapani might be in Palermo , or it's own province . Syracuse and/or Agrigento should be Greek culture and orthodox .

@Vaximillian Andorra is large enough for a province at least , it wasn't independant untill much later , Lichtenstein is still basicly a Swiss vassal . Monaco was much larger in 1444-1792 than now , enough to be independant , and was and is 10 times richer than other 3 combined . San Marino is the smallest of them , and no military importance , but is likable enough to be a popular idea , but adding it is bad becouse we already have 4 smallish provinces in Romagna

1. Definitely can't add Asti as it was basically the middle bit of Montferrat, however much I do want to add it to help cause friction between hre and france. Saluzzo see above
2. Your image doesn't work
3. Agreed, thinking of adding Monaco (again your image is broken)
5. Nope, only HRE italy (well, and Viterbo but yolo)
6. Wut
7. Scily has 3 provinces in Vanilla? I may add another I dunno

How is it everything OP suggests is actually a really good idea. Keep it up mattymooz

Cheers!

OMFG so much typing lol. Keep the ideas up!

 

[Zylathas]

Shouldn't Trent be an independent bishopric?

 

[Mattymooz]

Shouldn't Trent be an independent bishopric?

Yes, I haven't gotten around to making the tag yet

 

[Vaximillian]

By the way, why „Strazburg“? It should be „Straßburg“ (probably actually defined as StraЯburg in the files because PDX can't into Unicode).

 

[Mattymooz]

By the way, why „Strazburg“? It should be „Straßburg“ (probably actually defined as StraЯburg in the files because PDX can't into Unicode).

It's even on Wikipedia if you had looked "In the ninth century it was commonly known as Strazburg in the local language". A name that used the normal people alphabet so that the game doesn't f up and also something that most non-german speakers can pronounce.

 

[Vaximillian]

Ninth century? Is it CK2?

The game doesn't f up by the special characters, look at Lübeck, Münster or Königgrätz. However, it's your mod and your rules.

 

[Mattymooz]

Ninth century? Is it CK2?

I doubt people at the beginning of the 9th century were like 'we will now call this place Strazbourg' and then on new years eve were like 'forget that, we're are going to change the name now'. Considering it was part of Alsace, which is German-ish and French-ish neither one or the other, I decided to call it what the people said. If you can find a date at which they stopped calling it Strazbourg, and it was before the start date, I'd love to change it to whatever is correct.

The game doesn't f up by the special characters, look at Lübeck, Münster or Königgrätz. However, it's your mod and your rules.

No, you're right, sometimes special charecters are fine, sometimes they are not. I am yet to find out what means your umlauts appear or not, or any kind of accent/special character but sometimes they're fine and sometimes they don't. In this case I was going for more off the basis that most people will know 'ü' is a version of a u, but 'ß' could be anything, a funny B maybe? I dunno lol.

 

[CharlesTheBald]

Really impressive work! But I think Burgundy looks a bit oddly shaped. Maybe cut the Chalon province east of the river Saône. Also, the Geneva province extends too far west I think. It should have its border closer to the lake and not share border with Chalon. Here's a picture to make it clear what I mean:

The HRE looks great, while you're at it: maybe you could fix that weird vanilla Rethel shape and keep it on the proper (west) side of the river Meuse? I've always hated that Rethel province, makes French borders look weird after Burgundian Inheritance.

 

[ShadowCammy]

I like how everything was done, but Switzerland.
Wasn't Switzerland almost always the same shape as it was today?
When I look at it here, it looks a bit... off.
Could just be me or the mountains there, but I don't know. Maybe you made it more historical and I'm just ignorant

 

[Mattymooz]

I like how everything was done, but Switzerland.
Wasn't Switzerland almost always the same shape as it was today?
When I look at it here, it looks a bit... off.
Could just be me or the mountains there, but I don't know. Maybe you made it more historical and I'm just ignorant

At this time Switzerland was actually many small states (known as cantons). Shortly after the start of the game they formed the swiss confederation were they basically worked as a team, before uniting as Switzerland later.

The shape in this mod has been changed a bit as irl the Geneva canton was tiny and you wouldn't have been able to see it, so I had to make it bigger