Improved Genetics game rule request

[Uroshnor]

Hi devs!

Is there any chance we could get a game rule to disable the Improved Genetics system in the next release? I actually kind of prefer the vanilla trait inheritance system.

It would also be nice to have a third option that keeps the new inheritance mechanics but disables the new traits. Iirc, there's an alternate version of the original Improved Genetics mod that does this.

If it's not possible to implement that with a game rule, maybe make it a separate module instead, so that it can be disabled at install time?

 

[Arko]

Hi devs!

Is there any chance we could get a game rule to disable the Improved Genetics system in the next release? I actually kind of prefer the vanilla trait inheritance system.

It would also be nice to have a third option that keeps the new inheritance mechanics but disables the new traits. Iirc, there's an alternate version of the original Improved Genetics mod that does this.

If it's not possible to implement that with a game rule, maybe make it a separate module instead, so that it can be disabled at install time?

Even if wanted, I don't think it is easily doable nor viable to maintain.

 

[Kaunaz]

Hi devs!

Is there any chance we could get a game rule to disable the Improved Genetics system in the next release? I actually kind of prefer the vanilla trait inheritance system.

It would also be nice to have a third option that keeps the new inheritance mechanics but disables the new traits. Iirc, there's an alternate version of the original Improved Genetics mod that does this.

If it's not possible to implement that with a game rule, maybe make it a separate module instead, so that it can be disabled at install time?

A game rule wouldn't work because they're basically only a global flag that gets set, and Improved Genetics is more complicated than something that could be disabled by checking for a global flag, e.g it modifies the inherit chances in the traits files.

So a separate module like you suggest would probably be necessary, and though I don't speak for the HIP team, there's already numerous combinations of HIP that can be installed and need maintenance. When there's limited time and modding is unpaid work, it's far more likely that time will be spent on far more fun things such as implementing new features for everyone, rather than making one deemed good enough to be made part of the mod's core toggleable for a minority of users that dislike it (ultimately, you can't please everyone, and some people will always dislike some changes, and if you make one feature of EMF toggleable in the installer, people might be more demanding that others are).

In other words, if you want to disable Improved Genetics and revert HIP to the vanilla trait inheritance system, your best bet is to take up modding and learn how to do that yourself as a submod, which might be a bit of work, but is much more realistic and doable than it may sound if you're inexperienced. You could use a program such as WinMerge to compare changes made in Furry7 from Furry6 and look for everything relevant. Wanting to change and improve what you dislike is how most get started modding.

 

[Uroshnor]

A game rule wouldn't work because they're basically only a global flag that gets set, and Improved Genetics is more complicated than something that could be disabled by checking for a global flag, e.g it modifies the inherit chances in the traits files.

So a separate module like you suggest would probably be necessary, and though I don't speak for the HIP team, there's already numerous combinations of HIP that can be installed and need maintenance. When there's limited time and modding is unpaid work, it's far more likely that time will be spent on far more fun things such as implementing new features for everyone, rather than making one deemed good enough to be made part of the mod's core toggleable for a minority of users that dislike it (ultimately, you can't please everyone, and some people will always dislike some changes, and if you make one feature of EMF toggleable in the installer, people might be more demanding that others are).

In other words, if you want to disable Improved Genetics and revert HIP to the vanilla trait inheritance system, your best bet is to take up modding and learn how to do that yourself as a submod, which might be a bit of work, but is much more realistic and doable than it may sound if you're inexperienced. You could use a program such as WinMerge to compare changes made in Furry7 from Furry6 and look for everything relevant. Wanting to change and improve what you dislike is how most get started modding.

Oh, I can already think of several ways to implement that. I've been modding for years; I just haven't released much. I just figured I'm probably not alone in disliking the new system, and I was already thinking of offering to implement such an option myself for inclusion in the mod. But if you'd rather it be a submod, I can do that too.

There is one piece of information that would be helpful in that, though, if you don't mind me asking: does the Improved Genetics system involve any files other than emf_dna.txt, 00_traits.txt, 107~hip_congenital_traits.txt, and 210~emf_dna_traits.txt? Those are the ones I could identify after poking around earlier, but it would be helpful to know if there are others.

 

[JasperClay]

It would also be nice to have a third option that keeps the new inheritance mechanics but disables the new traits. Iirc, there's an alternate version of the original Improved Genetics mod that does this.

This would basically require redoing all the inheritance numbers (that is, the meat of the resolution code), to create a system with way less impact and nuance. I can't imagine wanting to code it, so I doubt you'll see it.

Is there any chance we could get a game rule to disable the Improved Genetics system in the next release? I actually kind of prefer the vanilla trait inheritance system...

...If it's not possible to implement that with a game rule, maybe make it a separate module instead, so that it can be disabled at install time?

I find it pretty crazy that anyone could actually prefer Paradox's hamfisted quasi-genetics system - where, for example, two genius parents have the same chance of producing a quick kid as two imbeciles - but if you want to revert, all you really need to do is rip out the events that assign the allele character flags, change the birth rate for the traits you don't like to 0, and change the birth/inheritance rates of the traits you do like to vanilla #'s.

Making a submod like IG compatible with a total overhaul is a gigantic pain, because there are a million places where you have to add a weight modifier for the trait you're integrating, and it's extremely tedious. I basically abandoned my own similar submod because going through character history files every time there's an update, and adding appropriate traits, is an enormous slog. In my experience, integrating it is the only way to keep a public version alive, and I'd be loathe to basically suggest that HIP maintain two separate history files, just because not everyone likes a full new game element they just introduced.

Now, a submod that deletes the allele-assigning events and reverts to vanilla birthrates would be comparatively simple to maintain. You'd have to suffer through traits like Comely existing for one generation, but if you made the inheritance chance 0, and removed the allele assignment events, they'd die out in one generation, and you could just consider them essentially bookmark-start only versions of Shrewd and Brawny.

 

[myrt]

Yeah, I'm interested in hearing why you prefer the old one

 

[chuckstablers]

I prefer the old one because having 30% of the children born in the world being 'dim' is not realistic in my opinion. I let the game play for 40 years on it's own and the sheer number of negative genetic traits seems really weird to me. Having characters be 'bright' and 'absent minded' and 'club-footed' and have 'freckles' while also being a 'burly' 'dwarf' is just too much. 20% of the population did not have a club foot as far as I'm aware.

That's why I dislike the system. I don't like paradox's system, but I also find this one to be overkill.

I'm probably going to be reverting to the previous system. There's enough variation in character skills as a result of the RNG nature of upbringings; I personally don't feel like we needed this system put in. Or at the very least add it in but maybe only keep the old traits. What purpose does 'freckles' serve as a trait? Why is the Roman Emperor a 'mastermind theologian' who is also 'dim'? IMO adding these traits wasn't needed. I hope the previous version works just as well.

 

[Ispil]

I prefer the old one because having 30% of the children born in the world being 'dim' is not realistic in my opinion. I let the game play for 40 years on it's own and the sheer number of negative genetic traits seems really weird to me. Having characters be 'bright' and 'absent minded' and 'club-footed' and have 'freckles' while also being a 'burly' 'dwarf' is just too much. 20% of the population did not have a club foot as far as I'm aware.

That's why I dislike the system. I don't like paradox's system, but I also find this one to be overkill.

I'm probably going to be reverting to the previous system. There's enough variation in character skills as a result of the RNG nature of upbringings; I personally don't feel like we needed this system put in. Or at the very least add it in but maybe only keep the old traits. What purpose does 'freckles' serve as a trait? Why is the Roman Emperor a 'mastermind theologian' who is also 'dim'? IMO adding these traits wasn't needed. I hope the previous version works just as well.

Freckles are a vanilla addition.

 

[Crimson9]

I prefer the old one because having 30% of the children born in the world being 'dim' is not realistic in my opinion. I let the game play for 40 years on it's own and the sheer number of negative genetic traits seems really weird to me. Having characters be 'bright' and 'absent minded' and 'club-footed' and have 'freckles' while also being a 'burly' 'dwarf' is just too much. 20% of the population did not have a club foot as far as I'm aware.

That's why I dislike the system. I don't like paradox's system, but I also find this one to be overkill.

I'm probably going to be reverting to the previous system. There's enough variation in character skills as a result of the RNG nature of upbringings; I personally don't feel like we needed this system put in. Or at the very least add it in but maybe only keep the old traits. What purpose does 'freckles' serve as a trait? Why is the Roman Emperor a 'mastermind theologian' who is also 'dim'? IMO adding these traits wasn't needed. I hope the previous version works just as well.

The ignorance in this quote is too much for me.

If you think the HIP team would add a module where 20% of the population has clubfoot into their brilliant mod, you are drunk.

The actual numbers from numerous, thorough, tests (Yes, TESTS, not exaggerated anecdotes) revealed that clubfoots were about ~0.4% or so, and dim was about 4%. Bright was the same as dim.

And as someone pointed out, freckles is a vanilla trait. Absentminded and Perceptive were HIP Vanilla traits.

The reasoning behind adding lower tier traits such as bright and dim is very sound. I would explain it, but I believe it was already explained, and I don't think you are interested anyway.

 

[Mr Nobody]

Oh, I can already think of several ways to implement that. I've been modding for years; I just haven't released much. I just figured I'm probably not alone in disliking the new system, and I was already thinking of offering to implement such an option myself for inclusion in the mod. But if you'd rather it be a submod, I can do that too.

There is one piece of information that would be helpful in that, though, if you don't mind me asking: does the Improved Genetics system involve any files other than emf_dna.txt, 00_traits.txt, 107~hip_congenital_traits.txt, and 210~emf_dna_traits.txt? Those are the ones I could identify after poking around earlier, but it would be helpful to know if there are others.

Seconded. You're not alone in this matter. This Improved Genetics system is just not my cup of tea; too much micromanagement having to calculate our partner's potential traits in order to have an average offspring.

 

[chuckstablers]

The ignorance in this quote is too much for me.

If you think the HIP team would add a module where 20% of the population has clubfoot into their brilliant mod, you are drunk.

The actual numbers from numerous, thorough, tests (Yes, TESTS, not exaggerated anecdotes) revealed that clubfoots were about ~0.4% or so, and dim was about 4%. Bright was the same as dim.

And as someone pointed out, freckles is a vanilla trait. Absentminded and Perceptive were HIP Vanilla traits.

The reasoning behind adding lower tier traits such as bright and dim is very sound. I would explain it, but I believe it was already explained, and I don't think you are interested anyway.

I get the logic behind it. But I'll go into my game file which I let run for 100 years right now and see how many children have the dim trait. Based on what I could see it's waaay more common than 4%. I'll go double check. I get the logic behind it; the logic I believe was to better represent 'genetic' variation in intelligence and other constructs. That being said I personally do not like it. I find it an unnecessary addition to a great mod. Still a great mod obviously; just that I find it too be too much. At the end of the day having to worry about my offspring being 'dull' or 'club-footed' through no fault of my own is not fun for me. It personally breaks my immersion when I feel like I'm running a eugenics program in the Byzantine Empire with selective breeding. That's my opinion. Yours may vary.

EDIT: By the way; I don't know if this is a vanilla problem or not; but why can the 'dull' trait exist with the 'quick' trait? That seems very silly.

 

[Crimson9]

Seconded. You're not alone in this matter. This Improved Genetics system is just not my cup of tea; too much micromanagement having to calculate our partner's potential traits in order to have an average offspring.

Not an 'average' offspring imo. I think there is a lot of micromanagement involved if you want absolutely no negative effects (like 'dim' or 'delicate'.) But for an 'average' offspring? That is totally absurd to suggest you require 'micromanagement' for that. I've been playing this mod for over six months now and I never bothered to micromanage.

At most if you really want to play the eugenics game you check the parents of the wife you are marrying. I dont see that as micromanagement. I actually think that enhances the game experience.

I get the logic behind it. But I'll go into my game file which I let run for 100 years right now and see how many children have the dim trait. Based on what I could see it's waaay more common than 4%. I'll go double check. I get the logic behind it; the logic I believe was to better represent 'genetic' variation in intelligence and other constructs. That being said I personally do not like it. I find it an unnecessary addition to a great mod. Still a great mod obviously; just that I find it too be too much. At the end of the day having to worry about my offspring being 'dull' or 'club-footed' through no fault of my own is not fun for me. It personally breaks my immersion when I feel like I'm running a eugenics program in the Byzantine Empire with selective breeding. That's my opinion. Yours may vary.

EDIT: By the way; I don't know if this is a vanilla problem or not; but why can the 'dull' trait exist with the 'quick' trait? That seems very silly.

You should actually go and do that, as I think it will convince you that its not much more than 4%, 5 or 6% maximum.

I've never felt that I have to micromanage to not have a clubfooted character. The number of clubfoots in the mod is the same as vanilla, where it is much more common than it should be, but you notice it more in this mod because a) it occurs in clusters (families with bad clubfoot genes) and b) because you perceive that something is wrong since the gene system changed. I mean thats why people have brought up weird trait combinations, even though they existed well before the mod.

As for dull, its not a genetic trait. If you mean dim, then I just think this is the weird obsession with certain players wanting absolutely no negative traits in their characters. How many people in the world are not either a bit less intelligent, weaker, shorter, or attractive than average? Not a lot.

Also, the purpose of this mod was never to run eugenics programs.

 

[JasperClay]

I prefer the old one because having 30% of the children born in the world being 'dim' is not realistic in my opinion. I let the game play for 40 years on it's own and the sheer number of negative genetic traits seems really weird to me. Having characters be 'bright' and 'absent minded' and 'club-footed' and have 'freckles' while also being a 'burly' 'dwarf' is just too much. 20% of the population did not have a club foot as far as I'm aware.

That's why I dislike the system. I don't like paradox's system, but I also find this one to be overkill.

I'm probably going to be reverting to the previous system. There's enough variation in character skills as a result of the RNG nature of upbringings; I personally don't feel like we needed this system put in. Or at the very least add it in but maybe only keep the old traits. What purpose does 'freckles' serve as a trait? Why is the Roman Emperor a 'mastermind theologian' who is also 'dim'? IMO adding these traits wasn't needed. I hope the previous version works just as well.

Seconded. You're not alone in this matter. This Improved Genetics system is just not my cup of tea; too much micromanagement having to calculate our partner's potential traits in order to have an average offspring.

Literally no one part of the game is needed. Parts of the game just combine to add depth. If the added traits make doing what you want to do in the game harder, they're working, because a good gameplay element offers both more reward, and more difficulty.

That being said, I've already described how easy it is to revert to the old system. I've also tried to describe how hard it would be to maintain IG as a submod. Even if only a plurality of players strongly prefer the new system, integrating it would still be the utilitarian move, because it's many times harder to submod in than submod out.

I'm happy to explain to people how to revert, but characterizing the mod as now requiring "micromanagement" to have an average kid is unfair. Reversion to the mean is literally built into the system. You will occasionally experience disappointing children, as many real parents do, but even the "dim" trait will barely affect their stats. I mean, should we be up in arms about the micromanagement required to prevent our heir from getting "slothful"? Likewise, the following is simply a mischaracterization:

At the end of the day having to worry about my offspring being 'dull' or 'club-footed' through no fault of my own is not fun for me. It personally breaks my immersion when I feel like I'm running a eugenics program in the Byzantine Empire with selective breeding. That's my opinion. Yours may vary.

EDIT: By the way; I don't know if this is a vanilla problem or not; but why can the 'dull' trait exist with the 'quick' trait? That seems very silly.

Dull, as the edit seems to acknowledge, is literally not on the genius-imbecile spectrum. It's a vanilla trait that IG doesn't touch. So, the HIP trait criticized there (1) does not come from IG and (2) is not addressed by IG at all. If you wish IG to become more comprehensive, and address that "silliness," fine, but what you're actually complaining about has nothing to do with IG.

Likewise, the prevalence of clubfoot is probably due to interaction with the vanilla pregnancy events. IG could become more comprehensive, and address them, but it would have to become more comprehensive to do so. HIP already has a game rule to turn these off.

But more importantly, all these critiques basically amount to: I want to be able to make marital alliances without caring about genetics. Great! Do that! You still can!

Now, doing so just has a trade-off: if a player marries purely for lineage and land, as medieval nobles did, they run the risk of having kids who are not as impressive as their rivals - the same risk that medieval nobles ran! Hapsburg inbreeding wasn't the only historical example of such an issue, and part of the reason Byzantine succession was competitive with other nations, despite its instability, was that it ensured a reasonably intelligent and capable ruler. Likewise, Turkish succession had benefits over Western primogeniture precisely because subtle variations in a potential ruler's intelligence and charisma did and do affect history.

You can still ignore them. Now, there are some small consequences for doing so, which a human player can basically nurture into even smaller consequences. But, since even a randomly educated "slow" player ruler is superior to the AI, these consequences are mostly an RP/aesthetic issue. If that's severely bothersome, luckily, reversion to vanilla is very easy.

 

[Uroshnor]

Personally, the main reason I don't like it is all the new "in-between" traits cluttering up everyone's trait bar, but fortunately, I found a way to disable them and leave everything else the same, which makes it a lot more tolerable.

For those who are curious, all you have to do is disable 108~emf_dna_traits.txt somehow - change the extension, or delete it, or make a submod that replaces it with a blank file. It gets rid of all the annoying new traits, and doesn't seem to break anything else.

 

[zijistark]

Personally, the main reason I don't like it is all the new "in-between" traits cluttering up everyone's trait bar, but fortunately, I found a way to disable them and leave everything else the same, which makes it a lot more tolerable.

For those who are curious, all you have to do is disable 108~emf_dna_traits.txt somehow - change the extension, or delete it, or make a submod that replaces it with a blank file. It gets rid of all the annoying new traits, and doesn't seem to break anything else.

Doing that definitely breaks much else. I wouldn't recommend anyone do this, particularly since there are some extremely obvious ways to achieve the same outcome without breaking anything.

Just make the "in-between" traits that the vocal opposition here hates so much hidden traits. Bam. Now you won't see more traits that have anything to do with Improved Genetics than vanilla, and your ego/immersion/etc. won't take damage for having a 'dim' child in CK2 or, God forbid, a 'comely' girl that also has freckles due to whatever vanilla code is responsible for adding Freckles. Of course, you don't get the advantage of being able to have a better inkling of what you're marrying genetically, but you don't want that anyway.

 

[tahlaskerssen]

The submod helps the game make it more historical and realistic.

The HIP team adds whatever helps make the game more historical and realistic, thats why they included it.

If you prefer other things over historical and realistic, HIP is probably not for you.

The numbers or evidences you presented as being the problem of the mod doesn't seem to be right, i recommend you double check them.

I never got such a thing or traits after 100 years or more of playing.

Maybe you are looking mainly at your own dinasty getting the same bad traits.. well.. let me show you something

https://www.google.com/search?q=hab...z-LiAhUHJrkGHXwIB4EQ_AUIECgB&biw=1920&bih=920

The karlings were tall, the hapsburgs had weird chins and lips, the merovingians didnt have androgenic alopecia, and son on. Genes are strong.

 

[Uroshnor]

Doing that definitely breaks much else. I wouldn't recommend anyone do this, particularly since there are some extremely obvious ways to achieve the same outcome without breaking anything.

Just make the "in-between" traits that the vocal opposition here hates so much hidden traits. Bam. Now you won't see more traits that have anything to do with Improved Genetics than vanilla, and your ego/immersion/etc. won't take damage for having a 'dim' child in CK2 or, God forbid, a 'comely' girl that also has freckles due to whatever vanilla code is responsible for adding Freckles. Of course, you don't get the advantage of being able to have a better inkling of what you're marrying genetically, but you don't want that anyway.

Idk, I've played a bunch since changing that file's extension, and everything else seems to be fine. No crashes, no weird behavior, nothing. I got the idea from the author of the Improved Genetics mod, on its Steam Workshop page.

But just in case, I've made two new submods that do what you suggest. One just hides the traits but leaves their mechanical effects intact ("HIP - Hide Extra Genetic Traits"), and the other also disables their mechanical effects ("HIP - Disable Extra Genetic Traits"). They're on Steam Workshop now.

 

[tahlaskerssen]

Nice, i'll check them out.

Wait, it hides them forever or just until adult?

Can you make it just until adult?

 

[zijistark]

Idk, I've played a bunch since changing that file's extension, and everything else seems to be fine. No crashes, no weird behavior, nothing. I got the idea from the author of the Improved Genetics mod, on its Steam Workshop page.

But just in case, I've made two new submods that do what you suggest. One just hides the traits but leaves their mechanical effects intact ("HIP - Hide Extra Genetic Traits"), and the other also disables their mechanical effects ("HIP - Disable Extra Genetic Traits"). They're on Steam Workshop now.

If they're removed outright rather than just hidden, they break the genetics system and all of its highly-calibrated numbers for gene expression (i.e., of the other traits on the spectrum that they're on). If they are just hidden, everything works as intended still, and since those hidden traits all have minor effects, it's basically like they aren't there.

 

[zijistark]

Can you make it just until adult?

Yes, that would be trivial for a submod to do as well.