Improved France Map

[Mattymooz]

NOTE : You can now play with it yourself on the Workshop : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=451040975​

After my vision of a better England was so well recieved, I'm just going to start doing other places (mainly in Europe) that I think deserve more better provvinces.

Please note that the idea of these changes is too add depth to an area and make it more accurate, but not to go completely indepth in certain areas with tiny provinces. They still need to be clickable and a reasonable size. I'm not going to make an area a mass of utrechts and maltas.

So, this time my focus was France (for me this included brittany, france and it's vassals, provence and french burgandy). Here is what I would change if I was Paradox:

The changes added a total of 11 new provinces. 1 new province for Brittany, 1 for Foix, 1 for Armagnac, 1 for Orleans, 1 for England and the rest for France proper.

Spoiler: New Provinces Images

I haven't redone the cultures this time as I don't know a lot about the cultures in France at this point in time. I would have renamed cosmopolitaine anyways (as I know that it is horribly wrong) but I can't seem to find the localisation file for the original 1.0 cultures.

I have also reformed the Base Tax (or development) of the area. This has resulted in the french vassals having more wealth than they did before, but france staying the same (in the aim that maybe the vassals will revolt and if not then whatever). But after all the vassals have been integrated + the burgundian inheritance event, they should have the same basetax as they normally do (french burgundy got nerfed as the lowlands probably need a buff)

Orleanais has gained a important center of trade but I haven't added any others as I'm not sure any more are needed

Again I will be uploading it to the workshop soon, so you guys will be able to play with it. Any amendments would be great. My expertise is in Britain not France so it could be horribly wrong!

 

[Krajzen]

Sexy, though I often feel like Provence could be split up too

 

[Heinrikr]

If there is such a thing as map porn, you could get very rich by it. these maps of yours are indeed very sexy. Paradox ought to hire you.

edit: also, if you're planning on doing more such maps, please consider doing scandinavia

 

[Mattymooz]

Sexy, though I often feel like Provence could be split up too

Yeah, I'm just not sure what the other province would be. I can't see what pdox has as the province in the screenshots of the new map either so I can't just steal it from there. Any idea's?

If there is such a thing as map porn, you could get very rich by it. these maps of yours are indeed very sexy. Paradox ought to hire you.

edit: also, if you're planning on doing more such maps, please consider doing scandinavia

D'aaaaaaaw, thanks. And Scandanavia is on the list

 

[Itchel]

I like the map, but somehow in the areas of savoy,dauphine,provence and burgundy the provinces look kinda... obese

 

[Mattymooz]

I like the map, but somehow in the areas of savoy,dauphine,provence and burgundy the provinces look kinda... obese

I haven't even looked at savoy yet! I believe Savoy actually owned most of charolais that is like sticking out so that will make that province smaller. And I agree I think, and extra proivnce or 2 in th daupihne/languedoc/provence area would be great if you have any suggestions!

 

[Mattius]

Yeah, I'm just not sure what the other province would be. I can't see what pdox has as the province in the screenshots of the new map either so I can't just steal it from there. Any idea's?


D'aaaaaaaw, thanks. And Scandanavia is on the list

Marseille.

 

[Nijato]

Hi Mattymooz, someone in a french forum (his name is Lithu) saw your France map and wanted to show his "countermap" as he names it so here it is :

Spoiler: Zoomed ones

Spoiler: Cultural map

Spoiler: Commercial map

Spoiler: Map with numerated new provinces

1 - Pyrénées - wasteland
2 - Foix (counties of Foix and Comminges)
3 - Draguignan (copy of the change by Paradox)
4 - Forez (based on the county of Forez, a historical french province)
5 - Genève
6 - Chalon (Division of the duchy of Burgundy, around Chalon sur Saône. No specific historical basis)
7 - Angoumois (County of Angoulème, historical province)
8 - Saintonge (union of the historical provinces of Aunis and Saintonge)
9 - Marche (County of the Marche and historical province)
10 - Touraine (historical province)
11 - Villaine (Division of Britanny)
12 - Blois (County of Blois, division of the historical province of Orléanais)
13 - Vendôme (union of the counties of Vendôme and Dunois, straddling between the historical provinces of Maine and Orléanais)
14 - Beauce (Division of Île de France to ensure that she isn't way too big and in contact with way too many provinces. Historical basis but Beauce hadn't a province rank)
15 - Cotentin (Division of Normandie)
16 - Jersey (representation of the anglo-norman isles)
17 - Troyes (division of the historical province of Champagne)
18 - Verdun (territories of the bishopric of Verdun)
19 - Vendée (division of the historical province of Poitou)

If you have any questions or remarks I can answer !

Below, one of his principal historical basis :

Spoiler

 

[Mattymooz]

-snip-

I had used that map as well, as well as this one

On this one it used colours to show the historical counties/duchies of france.

It's good to see that the maps are very similar.

However, I would love to ask some questions about some of the differences!

Province 1 - Not really a question but I defo won't be adding it as otherwise stuff like the carpathians and the alps would be like this too, so just for consistancy (plus wastelands create ugly borders!)

Province 3 - Yeah, I agree tbh, the provinces in that area look quite big.

Province 4 - I was thinking about adding Forez but I thought Lyonnais may be a bit too small if it was added. It's a shame your image does not have rivers on as it looks as though that area should be more squished as lyonnais and auvergne both have their 'capitals' on rivers that are fairly close togther (as seen on your image)

Province 5 - Geneva will definitely be added, I just haven't done savoy yet, will look at it when I do the hre/italy probably after paradox's new map comes out.

Province 6 - Was chalons that important? I want to add another province to burgundy in that area anyways as my charolais is a bit on the fat side, so if Chalons is the best thing to call it then I will probably use that!

Province 7/8 - Was Angoulmeme that important? I had considered adding it as it's own province but I wasn't sure it was that important and it makes angoulmeme/saintonge very small (I made angoulmeme the capital of the province instead)

Province 13 - I had looked at vendome/dunois but I think they are just a bit small to be included as a province. If they had a majour historical influence I'll try and squeeze them in. Current5ly they have just been added to blois/touraine

Province 14 - I have never heard of Beauce before! That would definitely be a better province than Oise. I'd probably change ile de france to be most of oise on my map, and then add beauce as most of ile de france and orleans on my map (if that makes sense). Would the capital be Chatres then?

Province 18 - Was Verdun that important? as it is a kind of small province... I mean, if it was historically significant/important then sure, but if not really then probably not


Also, would you say my garrone province was unnesecary? I kind of wanted to make the provinces in that area smaller (especially as armagnac was a lot smaller than it is ingame) but if the french think it's poointless then there is no point in having it! Also, isn't gascogne a stupid name for that province? I thought gascogne covered a much larger area (see large pink area on my picture)

Trade wise I think we have pretty much the same (other than I have a important center of trade in orleans and also villane is in bordeaux so that brittany has concentrated power in one node)

Your cultures are very interesting. I had never heard or arpitan before, but after googling it is definitely a thing. I'll try and add it. It's interesting you got rid of the aquitainian culture though, is there any reason for that?

Last thing (I promise) Why did you give vermandois to burgundy? Doesn't that include the majority of the 'Duchy de valois' on your map? surely that would be french land then (going off the fact that valois = french)




Thanks sooooooo much for translating Nijato! Sorry there is soooo much :/

 

[Itchel]

aah, why are those 2 provinces in brittany francaise?

 

[Nijato]

@Mattymooz
(Again just a translation of Lithu)

Prov 1 : The wasteland isn't very nice (that would be cool that someone could possess de jure a wasteland) ; but troops that pass through isn't serious. In the alps, it surely would be necessary to have some wastelands too but there are some real passes whereas the cirques of the Pyrénées are real cul-de-sac. Fot the Carpaths I don't know well the region but surely.
Prov 4 : I will give a map with rivers in the day.. The capital of Auvergne is fairly far of the Lyonnais, did you mean Forez ?
Prov 6 : Without this province the province of burgundy would be too big. As for the Charolais, there isn't really neither any historical basis nor gameplay utility for him to take this zone. Chalon-sur-Saône is an important city of the zone and her having a province around her seems reasonable to me.
Prov 7/8 : Angoulême isn't Paris or Lyon but is comparable to Armagnac et Rodez which are depicted. The resulting provinces are pretty small but not plus than in the more detailed zones of the game (Germany and Italy with the next patch).
Prov 13 : Major influence maybe not at this point. This seemed quite significant to me and sympathic at a gameplay level.
Prov 14 : Yes the capital of Beauce is Chartres.
Prov 18 : If I overhaul the map, I may as well do it nicely (Even if my result is doubtless perfectible). Verdun was independent and had just the right size to make it playable. But I sure know that paradox won't have add it (We have to say that the engine of the game, for example the units, battles and moves don't work welle with the very little provinces in addition that it's hard to click on them)

For the province of Garonne, she hasn't really a historical basis and she isn't useful in anything for the moves/forts so I indeed decided to not add her. But that's true that the province of Armagnac in vanille is a bit swollen.
For the province named Gascogne, indeed the name of Gironde would be better. We miss something like de jure provinces which would include several EU4 provinces and which would have specific characsteristics (like a special level of autonomy for example) that would apply to all the included provinces

Why I get rid of the Aquitaine culture : she hadn't any historical basis. In the french forum where we are she is mocked everytime we talk of her. The occitan culture wasn't very uniform, all like the Dutch culture for example because without specific centralisation there always were local variations. Nevertheless, she stayed relatively similar in all the zone. If there is a lack of something in the game at this level would rather be that catalan et occitan don't tolerate each other (the catalan was just a more significative variation of the occitan one).

For the trade, I didn't do any specific researches to know where to put centers of trade, except Troyes where it was crystal clear. The subject would deserve to be more studied. For Villaine in the Manche node, I hesitated between put Armor and Villaine in the node or just Villaine (After all it's more natural, St-Malo in particular was turned towards the Manche) but for the game itself, put it in the Bordeaux node isn't stupid.

Finally for Vermandois, the zone with St-Quentin for capital (see the reference map). The duchy of Valois isn't included in the province I drew. If we look in relation to Cambrai and the north of Île-de-France it's pretty clear.

@Krubukos
Look at this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_boundary_of_Brittany
I thought of making a distinct culture for it but I didn't know if the differences were that big with the Romance zone.

 

[Mattymooz]

@Mattymooz
(Again just a translation of Lithu)

Prov 1 : The wasteland isn't very nice (that would be cool that someone could possess de jure a wasteland) ; but troops that pass through isn't serious. In the alps, it surely would be necessary to have some wastelands too but there are some real passes whereas the cirques of the Pyrénées are real cul-de-sac. Fot the Carpaths I don't know well the region but surely.
Prov 4 : I will give a map with rivers in the day.. The capital of Auvergne is fairly far of the Lyonnais, did you mean Forez ?
Prov 6 : Without this province the province of burgundy would be too big. As for the Charolais, there isn't really neither any historical basis nor gameplay utility for him to take this zone. Chalon-sur-Saône is an important city of the zone and her having a province around her seems reasonable to me.
Prov 7/8 : Angoulême isn't Paris or Lyon but is comparable to Armagnac et Rodez which are depicted. The resulting provinces are pretty small but not plus than in the more detailed zones of the game (Germany and Italy with the next patch).
Prov 13 : Major influence maybe not at this point. This seemed quite significant to me and sympathic at a gameplay level.
Prov 14 : Yes the capital of Beauce is Chartres.
Prov 18 : If I overhaul the map, I may as well do it nicely (Even if my result is doubtless perfectible). Verdun was independent and had just the right size to make it playable. But I sure know that paradox won't have add it (We have to say that the engine of the game, for example the units, battles and moves don't work welle with the very little provinces in addition that it's hard to click on them)

For the province of Garonne, she hasn't really a historical basis and she isn't useful in anything for the moves/forts so I indeed decided to not add her. But that's true that the province of Armagnac in vanille is a bit swollen.
For the province named Gascogne, indeed the name of Gironde would be better. We miss something like de jure provinces which would include several EU4 provinces and which would have specific characsteristics (like a special level of autonomy for example) that would apply to all the included provinces

Why I get rid of the Aquitaine culture : she hadn't any historical basis. In the french forum where we are she is mocked everytime we talk of her. The occitan culture wasn't very uniform, all like the Dutch culture for example because without specific centralisation there always were local variations. Nevertheless, she stayed relatively similar in all the zone. If there is a lack of something in the game at this level would rather be that catalan et occitan don't tolerate each other (the catalan was just a more significative variation of the occitan one).

For the trade, I didn't do any specific researches to know where to put centers of trade, except Troyes where it was crystal clear. The subject would deserve to be more studied. For Villaine in the Manche node, I hesitated between put Armor and Villaine in the node or just Villaine (After all it's more natural, St-Malo in particular was turned towards the Manche) but for the game itself, put it in the Bordeaux node isn't stupid.

Finally for Vermandois, the zone with St-Quentin for capital (see the reference map). The duchy of Valois isn't included in the province I drew. If we look in relation to Cambrai and the north of Île-de-France it's pretty clear.

So, I've made several changes. I added Beauce, Forez, Draguignan and chalons from your suggestions (and also Velay as languedoc was a monster).

Here are the changes:

@Krubukos
Look at this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_boundary_of_Brittany
I thought of making a distinct culture for it but I didn't know if the differences were that big with the Romance zone.

Again, in terms of game mechanics, probably a bad idea as France will get missions to take it back!

 

[Nijato]

Nice ! (It's me Nijato who talked here)

Here begins the translation of Lithu :

Reaction on your new map : 1) There should be a direct border between Picardie and IDF.
2) Your Beauce extend frankly outside the surproductive agricultural region centered on Chartres in the North-east whereas in the south-west a part isn't recovered.
3) Why isn't there a border between Bourbonnais and Marche ?
4)Why your Calais extend so much ? Even in the paradox version it's big.
5)Your Touraine seems weird to me in relation to the several maps I could see.

To answer your remark on Britanny : The zone between Nantes and Rennes always was in conflict, since the first centuries of installation of the britons. Then at the XII-XII century Britanny become a de jure vassal and de facto vassal of the kingdom of France. But when the HYW was at his highest, the duchy of Britanny tried to become independent. The kings of France still claimed this province as part of the realm until the union was realised in 1514. So if the cultures of provinces of Nantes and Rennes generate missions for France, It's great.

I have a new map too : Several new borders of provinces overhauled to be more historical and/or more aesthetic (like a change in the south-west so that Navarre can't have an access to the sea) ; division of the provinces of Champagne and Languedoc ; Marche is now occitan ; Add a center of trade in Orléans and IDF.

Spoiler: Cultural map

Spoiler: Commercial map

Aaaaaaand I even enabled the better graphics

 

[Mattymooz]

3) Why isn't there a border between Bourbonnais and Marche ?
4)Why your Calais extend so much ? Even in the paradox version it's big.
5)Your Touraine seems weird to me in relation to the several maps I could see.

See the map I posted above! I tried most of the time to stay inside the lines of the coloured historical counties as well as looking at the map you showed for reference on how to split up said counties!

To answer your remark on Britanny : The zone between Nantes and Rennes always was in conflict, since the first centuries of installation of the britons. Then at the XII-XII century Britanny become a de jure vassal and de facto vassal of the kingdom of France. But when the HYW was at his highest, the duchy of Britanny tried to become independent. The kings of France still claimed this province as part of the realm until the union was realised in 1514. So if the cultures of provinces of Nantes and Rennes generate missions for France, It's great.

But.....Independent Brittany..........

Also, is the better for IDF & Beauce

 

[Nucky]

@Nijato

I really like your map! I hope that Paradox will take inspiration from you. A few remarks about Brittany:

- I understand why you put 2 provinces in the French cultural region if you assume culture=language. But I prefer the solution that Paradox chose: saying that Breton culture was pretty close to the French one already in the 15th century, and put Breton in the French culture group.

- I'm not a fan of the post-revolution names and borders: I would prefer to see 'Cornouaille', 'Leon & Trégor', 'Vannetais' rather than Finistère, Morbihan, Loire, and the ugly 'Armor'. See the map here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bretagne_historic_location_map.svg. Obviously not all 'pays' should be reprensented, but borders and names should be based on this.

I should go to the French forum one day!

 

[Basileios Makedon]

Have you added dynamic province names when spain controls the region? I saw Spain overruning France and I was very surprised when I saw spanish names.

 

[Mattymooz]

Have you added dynamic province names when spain controls the region? I saw Spain overruning France and I was very surprised when I saw spanish names.

No I haven't added any yet! They must be in Vanilla. It is on the list of things to do

 

[Basileios Makedon]

No I haven't added any yet! They must be in Vanilla. It is on the list of things to do

Okey Dokey

 

[Nijato]

Sorry for the delay of the answer.

@Mattymooz
1)For Bourbon/Auvergne the later provinces maps seem indeed to indicate this. For the gameplay I don't find it great but it seems accurate.
2)For Calais you mixed the modern administratives borders (represented by dark or light lines on your map) and the old with only the colors.
3)Even on your map, not at this point. I saw on other version that looked like yours, but in general it's more like what we see here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touraine ; and given that it accords with my map of 1477 too...
4)The Beauce very approximatively (It's hard to find a precise map) :

Spoiler

@Nucky : Thanks for the map. I rearranged according to it, I will publish a new map later. However for the north and the west, It's not very possible to follow that. The Finistere can't really be cut in two parts.
For the cultural choice, the other one has his arguments but mine seems more precise to me. Biritanny wasn't a zone with uniform traditions and just a linguistic variation, but on the contrary a linguistic variation which brought cultural variations, even if the christian background in particular stayed close.
If you are interested in this french forum his name is Mundus Bellicus ! You can find it here : http://www.mundusbellicus.fr/forum/forum.php

 

[Nijato]

Here is the new map I promised :

Changements : -Briton provinces fit better their historic forms.
-Addition of the province of Albret
-Addition of the province of Vivarais. She eats voluntarily on the province of Forez, so that the troops can move along the Rhône without going into the mountains of the Alps or of the Massif Central.
-Suppression of the province of Verdun : even if correct historically, the level of details of the game makes his existence impossible.
-Improvement of some province borders : Avignon ; Forez on the west
-Addition of the Alps (western part)
And I also put the PU's and the vassal of Burgundy like in 1.12, but it's secondary according to the subject here which is the remodelling of the provinces.