Improved Fanatical Purifier and Democratic Crusader

[GuyInTheSky]

Instead of making FPs and DCs a default type of AI, let's make these into midgame events.

Purification War
In the midgame there is a chance that an empire will become a FP. Militant and hierarchical empires get a bonus to this chance. The empire must be fanatical xenophobic. A player maybe become a FP through an event chain. This is different from a merely aggressive empire because FP's have special mechanics regarding purging.

-Every pop purged, space monster killed, species genocided, enclave destroyed, and empire erased from history. FPs will get unity, influence, happiness to xenophobes, and ethics convergence.
-Double influence from rivalries. Double number of rivalries.

There is a timer on the last pop purged. If the timer runs out, the FP reverts to a normal empire.

Liberation Wars
Similarly, there is a chance in the midgame that an empire will become a DC. Militant and xenophilic empires get a bonus to the chance. The empire must be egalitarian. A player can become a DC through an event chain. Unlike FP's multiple empires will become DC's, and they will ban together in a federation. The federation will have a special name like "Alliance of Democracies" or "Confederacy Against Atrocities". All members of the federation get a special CB to force non-democracies to become democracies and join their federation as a non-voting member.

-Every non-democracy "liberated" grants unity, influence, happiness to egalitarians, and ethics convergence to all federation members.
-Bonus if the liberated empire is an autocracy, had slavery, committed atrocities, or attacked primitives.

There is a timer on the last empire liberated. If the timer runs out, the DCs revert to normal empires and there is a high chance of them leaving the federation.

I think you can also see how there would be similar events for other ethics as well. The events should focus on how a civilization's galactic view is shaped by contact with aliens. There is no reason for an empire to be fanatical purifiers if they've never met aliens before, or to believe that democracy must be spread through wars is they implicitly think the stars are empty. This should come later as a result of experience with aliens.

 

[Sarius1997]

The fanatical purifiers are the Krikkit from "The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy", and honestly, i just like them that way. They are a great trope.

 

[Emraldis]

The fanatical purifiers are the Krikkit from "The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy", and honestly, i just like them that way. They are a great trope.

I have done my best to replicate the krikkit in my latest SP game. It's pretty great.

 

[C4st1gator]

After thinking this through, I don't think that Fanatical Purifiers, or Democratic Crusaders are a temporary only thing.

Allow me to elaborate: Stellaris works on the basis, that a planet is eventually united under one government. It is not elaborated how this happened and I usually write a backstory for my custom empires, that explains why their society works the way it does. Considering that, I can certainly imagine the emergence of societies, where the extermination of other species is considered a social good, because the species would otherwise live in constant danger.
Same thing with democratic crusaders. Eventually the rulers start to consider violence a valid tool to spread democracy to unwilling targets. A peaceful monarchy, for instance.
Here is an example of a Fanatical Purifier empire:

Spoiler

My glorious Para Empire, for instance started out on the beautiful (frozen), pristine (pure) planet of Parask. The intelligent, but weak Para had to cope with a rather hostile enviornment including dangerous wildlife, extreme cold, and other kingdoms, that were eventually gobbled up by the Hsararr dynasty.
They are great thinkers and physically weak, not the best combination if your planet is judging every mistake you make without mercy.

Eventually, a fleet of space pirates attacked the ascending planet, that was now in its digital age, not yet fully united.
Here's what they saw: These pirates were a mix of different species, who tried to take over their only home. Their crude manners offended the courteous Paras and they dared to lay hands even on the noble families.
Witnessing this, the Emperor sent a planet wide broadcast to cleanse the world from these aliens, who dared to defile its sanctums, lay hand on the hard labour of its people and threatened to spoil the pure and noble planet itself!

It worked, the kingdoms that previously didn't bend their knee to the emperor now did so out of their free will to cleanse their home from this disgusing foreign blight.

They defeated the pirates, captured their spaceships and used the technology to complete their own space program. The space station "Victory" has been erected in orbit to allow construction of vessels to ensure the safety of the homeworld and deal with any xeno threat present and future.

How do you expect them to deal with aliens, when their empire's history points to this one event that proves to them, that all aliens are plotting the demise and exploitation of their glorious people? An indivudual Para can be subdued by a human, without any special training, their warfare emphasizes range, where they can use deadly missile fire*, so they don't have to rely on their frail physique.

*I know they need to be fixed, as currently they are anything but deadly.

These types of society do not care about the consent of their victims.

The Fantatical Purifiers rationalize, that any xeno is already plotting the demise of all good and pure members of their beautiful species and may even try to subvert them into their own disgusting xeno-loving ways!

On the other hand the Democratic crusaders will claim, that even an Enlightened Monarchy, no matter how liberal, doesn't give its people TRUE FREEDOM. Therefore, even otherwise peaceful realms, that don't commit any atrocities, are considered enemies of the democratic crusaders.
They are fanatics in their own way and everyone, who is not with them, who dares disagree with them on the topic of state philosophy, is automatically against TRUE FREEDOM, therefore against them.

 

[GuyInTheSky]

The problem is why purify? It's a huge problem that purifying doesn't yield it's own bonuses. It makes purifiers inherently weak compared to slaver or vassal taking empires. And their weakness makes them a non-threat.

The event to become a FP or DC should also go to more powerful empire. It's a pretty big let down when a third rate empire is a FP. When one of the great powers goes FP it should be something like a League war or revolutionary nation from EU4. It should be a problem that requires multiple empires banning together to solve.

FPs are also Daleks from Dr. Who, Imperium of Man from 40k, Species 8472 from Star Trek, Third Space Aliens from Babylon 5, and Reapers from (the most hated) Mass Effect. The common denominator of all of these is they are terrifyingly powerful.

Tell me, have FPs and DCs been a big component of past games for you?

 

[C4st1gator]

Maybe they should make it, so that a single species empire gets a tangible "Purity" bonus, that reduces revolt risk within that species, as long as all xenos within the empire are either food, marked for extermination, driven out or are enslaved. At the same time, the founding species enjoys a high standard of living.
So if full citizenship is only ever granted to the main species, while everyone else is considered on par with robots, that society will not revolt, because the empire is the only thing to protect them from the wrath of a hostile galaxy.

And while yes, fiction offers many powerful and threatening empires of the Fanatical Purifier type, they probably didn't start out that way. Also, if you finally get a powerful empire in your galaxy, that actually can remove the other species from the galaxy, they actually start to resemble your aforementioned examples.

And In one of my Enlightened Monarchy games the biggest thorn in my side turned out to be a Democratic Crusader. They spawned on the other side of the galaxy with a starting advantage and when I finally got there, they had established a comfortable blob of their own.

 

[GuyInTheSky]

Well the Purity modifier you suggest still is not FP. That's conquering and slaving. FP needs to kill all xenos. It presents a problem because this is not an economically efficient choice. The answer is that it's a socially effective choice.

Those examples were for posters above you who were suggesting that FP was a specific reference.

DCs tend to be a lot stronger than FPs. The problems with the DCs, as I see it, is that they don't recognize other DCs as natural allies to do DC things with, and that there doesn't seem to be a sense of urgency that befits the term "Crusader". They seem more like Democratic Belligerents.

 

[Drowe]

And while yes, fiction offers many powerful and threatening empires of the Fanatical Purifier type, they probably didn't start out that way. Also, if you finally get a powerful empire in your galaxy, that actually can remove the other species from the galaxy, they actually start to resemble your aforementioned examples.

Actually I can think of at least one example from fiction where the aliens were fanatical purifiers before they reached the space age. In Raimond L. Weil's Lost Fleet Series, a sequel to the Slaver Wars Series, the Simulin have evolved on a very hostile planet, in fierce competition for the very limited resources. They came to the conclusion that "There can be none but Simulin!", that means they believe that all other lifeforms must be exterminated. Because eventually they will compete with them for resources.

 

[C4st1gator]

Well the Purity modifier you suggest still is not FP. That's conquering and slaving. FP needs to kill all xenos. It presents a problem because this is not an economically efficient choice. The answer is that it's a socially effective choice.

Those examples were for posters above you who were suggesting that FP was a specific reference.

DCs tend to be a lot stronger than FPs. The problems with the DCs, as I see it, is that they don't recognize other DCs as natural allies to do DC things with, and that there doesn't seem to be a sense of urgency that befits the term "Crusader". They seem more like Democratic Belligerents.

I think that economically efficient and socially effective are two different things. If you purge all xenos from your empire, Utopia will still allow you to expand with artificial habitats until you can simply terraform the galaxy to your species preferred planet type. That is socially effective, because you don't have to worry about liberation revolts from your own species in the same way as you'd have to worry about secessionist aliens.

Is it effective? A unified empire, that can derive power and stability from unity? Absolutely!

Is it efficient? Let's see: Cost of terraforming, colonization, habitats, not getting wiped out while trying to wipe out the rest of the galaxy? That's very expensive.

But remember: Fanatical Purifiers don't care all that much about being efficient, they will do whatever it takes to get the job done, do not count the beans, when you could be spilling the blood of xenos, but to them, this is a service to their species.

Is the Imperium of Man in WH40000 efficient? No. These are the guys who levied entire planets, because of a buerocratic error. But they managed to conquer the largest part of the galaxy and fill it with humans.

The Democratic Crusaders, on the other hand, have no intention to wipe out every species in the galaxy that isn't them. They are more focused on government.
In their minds everybody needs to be free, but free as in you are free to do as I say, not you are free to do as you like.

If your kingdom or empire is attacked, they will be heavy on the propaganda:"Your Monarchy is an inefficient fossil of the past and you have nothing to lose but your chains!!"
You could try to sit down with them and elaborate, that the royal ministers and the court together are still less expensive than their sector assemblies, only to be ignored.

Or worse, they could label you a "happy slave" because you dared to defend a ruler that wasn't elected. Or not elected in the correct fashion, for that matter.
While they loathe autorcracies, oligarchies are not much safer.
They are named crusaders, instead of belligerents, becuase they act with great zeal, that you would otherwise find in fanatic spiritualist empires.

The difference is, one is "liberating" all other empires, while the other will wipe them out completely.
In other words, Democratic Crusaders are not percieved as a threat in the same way, that Fanatical Purifiers are. Despite their "holier than thou" behaviour and sometimes even outright aggression, they can still be part of a galactic community. (of republics)

Actually I can think of at least one example from fiction where the aliens were fanatical purifiers before they reached the space age. In Raimond L. Weil's Lost Fleet Series, a sequel to the Slaver Wars Series, the Simulin have evolved on a very hostile planet, in fierce competition for the very limited resources. They came to the conclusion that "There can be none but Simulin!", that means they believe that all other lifeforms must be exterminated. Because eventually they will compete with them for resources.

Yes, I didn't mean that they were not always Fanatical purifiers. What I meant to say was, that even the powerful Purifiers in fiction started out weak.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Fanatical Purifiers could do with some buffs- but not with being relegated to a special event.

 

[GuyInTheSky]

Yeah. I know they're different. That's why I differentiated between them. The FPs forfeit the economic bonuses of having large amounts of slaves in exchange for huge bonuses in influence, unity, etc.

Let's use and EU4 analogy to explain why FPs as an event are desirable.

You're playing as Denmark and then BAM, you get a message saying that OTTOMANS are now an FP. They are invading their neighbors and annihilating the population. That requires your immediate attention. You must ban together with your fellow nations to stop this threat.

On the other hand, imagine that Portugal starts the game as a FP. It's a non issue. It just doesn't matter. Castile may have to wipe them out, but other than that it doesn't effect the game.

More broadly, Stellaris needs a mechanic for AI's to switch personalities. Looks like they're working on something like that with ethos drift, but I'm not sure if AI will switch personalities within the appropriate choices for their ethos.

 

[Avian Overlord]

Fanatical purifiers are insane. That's the entire point. Of course they don't do well most of the time.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

More broadly, Stellaris needs a mechanic for AI's to switch personalities. Looks like they're working on something like that with ethos drift, but I'm not sure if AI will switch personalities within the appropriate choices for their ethos.

Whyyyyy wouldn't they?

 

[C4st1gator]

Yeah. I know they're different. That's why I differentiated between them. The FPs forfeit the economic bonuses of having large amounts of slaves in exchange for huge bonuses in influence, unity, etc.

Let's use and EU4 analogy to explain why FPs as an event are desirable.

You're playing as Denmark and then BAM, you get a message saying that OTTOMANS are now an FP. They are invading their neighbors and annihilating the population. That requires your immediate attention. You must ban together with your fellow nations to stop this threat.

On the other hand, imagine that Portugal starts the game as a FP. It's a non issue. It just doesn't matter. Castile may have to wipe them out, but other than that it doesn't effect the game.

More broadly, Stellaris needs a mechanic for AI's to switch personalities. Looks like they're working on something like that with ethos drift, but I'm not sure if AI will switch personalities within the appropriate choices for their ethos.

Please no event. Fanatical Purifiers should not be event gated. Knowing Paradox, they'd glitch it so either all empires would turn insane within the first decade, or there would never be any Fanatical Purifiers ever again. This is not to hate on the company, but they have developed a reputation for bugs.*
Also, the current system allows me to set up a custom empire, that will turn into purifiers. I couldn't write the same stories, if I left AI persoality to random chance. (gross)

Instead, maybe it's better, that we accept, that not every purifier can be successful. Many of them will just be liberated, or conquered, not despite, but because of the potential threat they pose. If you want to set off an endgame crisis, but you already stomped on the unbidden and co, just send minerals and energy to your purifier friends!
I'm sure they'll see the irony, that you're handing them the tools for your own demise. You can later stomp them into the ground, once they cleared the general area of all aliens you didn't like.

If you're stong enough, you can even use them as a tool to remove unloved species, even as you proclaim to be a xenophile. You can use their threat as a tool to manipulate the galaxy into your federation.

My goodness, diplomacy already has some potential. Gentlemen, we need more refined diplomacy, I'm in the mood for scheming!

*You being unable to upgrade tribal holdings as a feudal ruler, for instance. Or Magicka, my god, it was full of bugs.