Improve the Siberian natives

[FleetingRain]

No one likes the Siberian natives. Like. No one. 100% sure of that. You may like one or two or maybe the idea, but the concept of having 4 OPMs in the far, far Eastern Siberia while having the devs denying new tags on the basis that "they may hamper CPU performance" is asinine.

...even so, we can't just remove them anymore. Not deleting tags is a dev decision I don't even really oppose. But I don't think things are working properly as of now. So here's a proposal.

Spoiler: Kamchatkan culture

I'd want to start off with the Kamchatka. The culture covers the Chukotko-Kamchatkan language; there could even be a different culture for each province here, but this probably is undesirable.

Problem is... there are three (Chavchuveny, Chukchi, Kamchadals) backwards 3dev OPM native tribes with no DHEs and using the same National Ideas living here. Even their country files (with names for monarchs, generals, ships etc) are the same. Which means they're perfect clones of each other, except for their flags (Chavchuveny reindeer best one btw). The main difference among them is that two have Fur in their capital and the others have Fish, as if to differentiate between the more settler-like in coasts and the more nomadic-like in reindeer herding.

That's... incredibly subtle. What's the point, really? If you're going for the flavor, then do it all the way. Make Kamchatkan a culture group with Koryak in Penzhina, Chukchi in Kagyrgyn, Itelmen in Kamchadals and Lamuts in Gizhiga and Tauisk, with Chavchuveny maybe moved to Penzhina. No reason to keep everything the same thing. In fact, you could even add Nivkh and Orok cultures, divide Sakhalin in three and give Nikvh the north along with Deren, Orok the center and Ainu the south, if you really want flavor. They were all there, after all!

...Yeah, I suggested adding even more Siberian tags. But you see, that's the issue. If you want to represent local tribes, you have to do it this way, because there were a lot of different tribes in Siberia. I mean, the Yukaghir people had more than ten tribes by the time the Russians appeared! And even then the Khodynt were less than 1000 people. How come a tribe with so few people become an organized native tag and yet we have nothing in the Great Lakes region in Africa? And once again, if you add multiple tribes and then put them as OPM clones of each other, then why even bother?

Then there's the issue of how to solve it. They all have (along with Ainu and Buryatia) a special government type that gives a tech penalty but lets the OPMs migrate (so it exists only so that they don't have the American buildings and ideas, poor guys). You need to be an OPM to migrate though, so it only works for the 4 OPMs; therefore, the two slightly less shitty Siberian Clan Councils (Ainu and Buryatia) really get nothing from their government type, only getting nerfed with the tech cost increase.

It's weird that the OPMs with the "settler" flavor can migrate, but it would be even weirder if they couldn't. Having only one of them would be weird and allegedly would be bad due to isolation and no diplomacy, but... as of now, either you're going to eat them all in the first years, or you will simply migrate to better lands in search of Gold. Hell, even the AI has been taught to to it in 1.13. Not even the Siberians want to be close to each other. That's terrible. No, not even terrible. It's more like that it's "gone badly". Paradox clearly had a plan for injecting life into the Siberian lands, but it didn't work. It feels tacked-on, those natives don't add much. The "terra nullius" notion of empty lands ready for colonization doesn't help either.

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So what could we do?

First things first: The four OPMs.

All of the Kamchatka-related people had preference for reindeer herding, fishing and such. While there was infighting among them (specially because of the damn Chukchi), it can't be properly represented in-game. Either they will fight and white peace, fight and blob (lol "blob" over 3dev provinces), or migrate and forget about their neighbours.

So, seriously, just make them all a single tag. Move Chavchuveny to Penzhina and get the three provinces (Kamchatka, Penzhina, Kagyrgyn) under a single tag. I'm not 100% sure about the best name. Maybe Koryak. And the culture could be changed to Itelmen, if only to differentiate between the culture and the group. This way, the tag would represent the whole people. Having all of its starting lands in Glacial terrain would add to flavor... I guess. I mean, better than three clones.

Khodynt, the ridiculously underpopulated tribe, would be kept as an "outsider" tribe. They would still be an OPM from a different culture (Yukaghir) and group (Evenki), with the ability to migrate as they are a native OPM. Of course, if the other SCCs got reduced to one province, they'd be able to migrate too. But only Khodynt would start being able to migrate. They'd also need to be moved a province to the west so that they don't bother the new tag, as they'd become too easy of a target.

Both tags could keep Siberian ideas, but they would have to at the very least be rearranged (+20 settler increase as the last idea? -15% Unjustified Demands as tradition?), or even rewritten because, frankly, they sound incredibly generic. No mention to the local people, nothing about the Chukchi being warlike, nothing about Chavchuveny being the "rich reindeer" people, etc. We all can think something better.

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Considering the "new mechanic" about native treatment has made no mention about locals keeping their traditions and such, I'd take the chance to suggest something unique for the Siberian Clan Councils (SCCs from now on). Instead of merely being able to migrate as if they were a poor-man's Native American, they could have something related to "integrating" unorganized natives or be assimilated by them.

First of all, Native Policy would be locked to them until they reform. Their colonization would be different. If there is an uncolonized province neighbouring the SCC nation, they would be able to get in contact with them. If it's the same culture as the SCC's primary one, that would give them the option to start a colony there, getting a colonist, a starting population and some settler growth and diminished revolt risk. If it's within the same group, the options would be weaker and let you choose between keeping the local culture+religion or changing it to your own as an usual colony.

As an example, Buryatia could have a 300-month MTTH event that would give them 200 settlers, +1 colonist, +30 growth and -3 unrest for 20 years in Ust-Kut, as the province has Buryat as its culture. After the colony is consolidated, they get another event some 30 years later, but for East Tunguska. As it's Tungus, they'd be able to start a colony either keeping the local culture (+1 colonist, +20 growth, -2 unrest) or converting everyone there already (+50 settlers, +30 growth, +2 unrest).

This makes sense because they aren't really "colonizing" as some damn European imperialist. By the heavens, it's their own people living there. They're literally integrating them into the glorious Buryat (soon-to-be) Empire. In fact, this did happen in real life, as they got to assimilate Oirat, Khalkka and even Evenk tribes before the Russians appeared from the west. It's actually weird that a glorified unorganized native nation needs to "colonize" and "repress natives" that are of their own culture in-game, or close enough; let them have it easier.

This would also help the Kamchatka, as they would then get two (wow) non-Glacial provinces for free and get only two provinces away from the Manchurians. That sounds better than crawling as a piss-poor OPM (finding Gold is great though)!

What about the Khodynt? If they accepted colonizing, they'd settle! Yes. And then there's the twist in the mechanic: migrating SCCs (so basically Khodynt by 1444) would be able to culture convert if they move to a province of a different culture or get one as their neighbour even if not unorganized, for a stability cost. Instead of integrating their kinspeople, they'd be assimilated by the foreign people.

This way, Khodynt could change their culture not only to the local native ones, but even to, say, Manchu (not that they would be able to form Manchuria or something before reforming... or maybe they could be prohibited from doing so at all). If they are in the coast and have boats, they could change into Ainu by sharing the same sea zone in Okhotsk or Jugjur. They could even try to become Khalkka, Kazakh, Siberian (lol), Oirat or even wait for the Russian juggernaut (which would eat them as they'd become a Russian OPM).

Of course, SCCs would be able to take Exploration/Expansion as any other nation. The only thing blocked would be Native Policy.

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Then there's Ainu, one the first inhabitants of the Honshu archipelago (REMOVE WAJIN etc). They suck. They have nothing, their lands are shit-tier, they have no exclusive NIs nor special interactions with Japan. They could be improved a bit.

First of all, it's pretty clear they're under heavy threat from Japan. However, historically, they weren't insta-annexed; Japan settled in the south and engaged in trade with them. They weren't independent anymore, but their lands weren't Japanese yet. The best way to portrait this would be vassalization. And yet, Japan has a mission to... annex them. This should be changed. Either change the mission from conquest to subjugation, or remove it altogether and add an event for when Japan gets a border with them, demanding Shiribeshi (the southern province in Hokkaido, which could become either a new daimyo or be directly under Japanese control) or vassalization. In fact, this could even be integrated with the Ultimatum/province of interest mechanics from 1.14.

Then there's their territory. First, change Sakhalin to Mountains (most of the island is covered by mountains, why is it Woods?) and give them to Ainu. In fact, the best would be to divide it in two or three smaller provinces and give them all to Ainu, maybe letting Yeren keep the northernmost one. But I don't like suggesting province revamps. So give all of Sakhalin to Ainu and turn it into Mountains. If they want to survive the Japanese onslaught, they can try to run away. Also note that the Kurils would still be uncolonized, which means they would be able to grab it by the SCC event.

Then improve their Hokkaido lands. Not too much, just focus on Production (as they mostly traded with Japan) and possibly Manpower. 1/3/2 could be enough, as 6 dev is the lowest the Japanese lands have and it'd be silly if Ainu had more than them from game start. This would give them a measly military/financial chance if they ever want to revolt against their liege. Or to survive Japan at all if they try to be independent.

And finally... give them a mission to restore control of the northern half of Honshu, that is, everything north/west of Owari-Mino-Etchu. This would give them a permanent legitimacy bonus and a massive prestige gain, along with a nice Army Tradition gain. Nothing beyond that though, as there's no archaeological evidence that they ever set foot in Western Honshu (or is there?).

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Then there's Buryatia... Yeah nevermind. They're pretty good already. They are a real nation, they have neighbours and allies and rivals, they even have Gold. They're fine. Maybe some exclusive NIs, who knows.

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About Europeans. Unless some really weird shit happens in Eastern Europe (Commonwealth pls), the Muscovites will start colonizing into Siberia sooner or later. I believe not only the colonizer nations but also the unreformed local natives (not the people in Africa/SEA, but the natives in the Americas and such) will get some flavor events regarding the Native Policy adopted by the colonizer. But maybe I'm wrong.

Flavor events or not, the SCCs should get some special ones. Once a non-tribal nation with its capital in Europe and Expansion/Exploration/Siberian Frontier discovers a SCC nation, both the European and the SCC would start getting events related to the European's Native Policy. If it's Coexistence then fine, each will mind their own business, while Trading Policy would increase diplomacy between the nations, maybe even increase goods produced in some provinces from both.

Considering Russian history, Muscovy's flavor will probably be to go for Repression all day, every day. Which means they'll hate you. So, insta-hostile relations, marking your provinces as places of interest, diplomatic issues everywhere, herded reindeers being killed for nothing etc. SCCs would then also get military-related events. Nothing Elan-like, but, say, temporary manpower boost, increased reinforcing speed, +10% morale, +1 attrition, etc.

The idea is that you WILL have to face the European menace sooner or later, and you need to be prepared. Sure, if you still haven't reformed, you probably will be behind in tech and everything (as you don't have No Child Can Be a Khan, unlike your +75% tech brethren) so you'll probably lose some lands and such. But, as it wouldn't be fun if you 100% lost in this scenario, at least the game would help in getting a chance of not dying horribly even if still unreformed. Alternate history, if you will. The barbaric reindeers subjugating the mighty russian bear! Who could have thought.

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And, last but not least... Jugjur.

Spoiler: thanks Wikipedia

It's a Grasslands province, even though there's very clearly a mountain range there IRL. In fact, the province is even named after the mountain range. Why? I'd vote for it being changed to Mountains so that the Siberian people have some last defensive spot. Everything else can be kept the way they are now; while the second picture shows there were more mountains in Siberia, most of the Russian settlements were by the coast. The only real exception really was Jugjur.

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Okay, that was a lot. So, time for a tl;dr:

- Move Chavchuveny to Penzhina;
- Unite the Kamchatkan tribes (Kamchadals, Chavchuveny, Chukchi) under a single tag;
- Move Khodynt a province to the west so that they do not border the new Kamchatkan tag;
- Give exclusive ideas for the Siberian tags and/or improve the Siberian group ideas;
- NEW EVENTS: Let SCCs get events to colonize nearby close-culture provinces, keeping the local culture if they want to;
- NEW EVENTS: Migratory SCCs would be allowed to change culture based on their neighbour or the new province they migrate to;
- NEW EVENTS: Once an European appears in Siberia, both they and the SCCs they find get events based on the European's Native Policy, possibly giving a chance for SCCs to resist or at least not lose horribly to them if need be;
- NEW EVENTS: Ainu would get an event to either cede their southern province to Japan or accept vassalization, and this would replace the current ahistorical Conquest mission Japan gets;
- Give Sakhalin to Ainu and change it to Mountains;
- Increase development in Hokkaido by a bit;
- Change Jugjur to Mountains.

Spoiler: pretty image I guess

 

[FleetingRain]

These are the NIs I made as of now. Once I think something for Khodynt, I'll edit this post.

Spoiler: Koryak (or whatever name is given to the Kamchatkan tag) Ideas

Koryak Traditions: +1 Attrition for Enemies; -15% Land Attrition
Koryak Ambitions: -15% Building Cost

Dark Wings, Dark Words - +1 Tolerance of Heretics; +1 Tolerance of True Faith
Kutkh, the old Raven God, is known by our people as both the creator of everything and a lesser god; the bringer of fire and language, and a degenerate thief; both revered and derired, both trickster and tricked. These discrepancies not only have not affected our faith, but also show even in diversity we can accept the others' beliefs.

Hunting Expansion - +20 Global Colonial Growth
Hunting is a vital part of the survival of our people. By expanding our hunting areas and establishing new settlements, we could obtain more fur.

Reindeer Herding - +10% Goods Produced
The reindeer is vital to our way of life. Their meat feeds us, their milk strengthens our children, their sturdy backs carry us, their skins cover our tents, their hides warm our bodies. Let the might and resilience of the reindeer be known to all! Glory to us! Glory to the reindeer people!

Chukchi Warfare - +10% Land Morale
The strong tribes from the north are feared warriors. Much of the infighting among our people come from their desire for blood. While problematic, they stir their brethren to best themselves in warfare, either for defending from their attacks or to stop the conflicts for good.

Appease the Cossacks - +20% Improve Relations
Strange foreigners never seen before appear to our people claiming to be from some Russian Empire from the west. Their weaponry seems much more advanced than anything we use. It might be wise not to enrage them, at least for now. We must find out what they want with our people at first.

Defend Against The Cossacks - +15% Defensiveness
The cossack people proved themselves to be a menace. While they have the mighty Russian Empire behind them, we have the knowledge of the vast land we live in, where no foreigner has come before. We must resist!

Perseverance - +1 Yearly Prestige
The Russians and Cossacks have bested us through slaughter, alcoholism and disease. But we refuse to perish. While outnumbered and weak, we will persevere. We will survive and carry on our legacy to the future, for better times are sure to come for the reindeer people.

Spoiler: Ainu Ideas

Ainu Traditions: +1 Legitimacy; +1 Attrition for Enemies
Ainu Ambitions: -1% Prestige Decay

Heirs of Jomon - +1 Diplomatic Reputation
'The Ainu lived in this place a hundred thousand years before the Children of the Sun came.' \n \nWhile now relegated to the northern Ezo island, we still bear the Jomon legacy. Other peoples do recognize this, and while they might not be long-time friends of the Ainu people, we can use this ancestry to at least be in good terms with them.

Surku Poison and Wormwood Arrows - +10% Infantry Power
Masters of hunting, we pray to the gods of plants, mountains, hearth and prey alike to aid us in finding game and returning safe. If need be, our abilities with a crossbow can be tested against any foreign invaders of our heartland.

Twelve Brothers and Twelve Sisters - -10% Naval Maintenance; +1 Tolerance of True Faith
Whenever our villages get struck by famine, we spend our days in the sea, hunting for whales. If the Sea God ever hears our prayers and sends us whales to get ashore in the beach, our people will dress in the most magnificent clothes and dance around it, and our chief will revere the Sea God and offer them many barrels of sake.

The Five-and-a-Half Petitions to Heaven - +10% Production Efficiency
Once we have been hit by a great famine, for the gods of deer and fish abandoned us. After learning from the Owl God about their punishment, we learned to respect the deer and fish even upon death, and since then we have been blessed with no more hunger.

Trade with the Wajin - +10% Trade Efficiency
The Matsumae clan, settled in the southern region of our lands, have obtained exclusive rights from their Emperor to trade goods with us. While we'd rather they all crawled back to the continent and died a horrible death, mingling in trade with them will only bring us benefits.

Conflict with the Wajin - +10% Land Morale; +20% Reinforce Speed
We became too dependent on the Japanese, and now they covet our lands. Unless we unite and resist the opressor, we'll perish and have our last lands taken by them!

The Legend of Okikirmui - +1 Yearly Prestige
Not a mere human, but one of godlike strength, Okikirmui is our greatest hero. Dead long ago, he did not suffer to see the state of their people today. One day, should he ever return, he will deliver us. Until then, we will have to accept subjugation to the filthy Wajin.

Spoiler: Buryat Ideas

Buryat Traditions: -15% Land Attrition; -10% Accepted Culture Threshold
Buryat Ambitions: +2 Tolerance of Heathens

The Blue Wolf - +15% Cavalry Combat Ability
Once upon a time, there was a man known as Burte Chino, who took a beautiful woman called Goa Maral as his wife. From their marriage, the Mongol people were born. Since then, the mongols have laid terror to the south and the west. While weak and fragmented now, our traditions persist.

Yohor Dance - -2 Unrest
All together, dance! The Mongols have developed a special form of dance based on our nomadic ways, and we the buryats have our own specific style, the yohor. We dance in circles in the direction of the sun while a song is improvised by the people. Everyone is welcome to take part, be it in yohor or in your own style! What's important is expressing yourself!

Too Much Water - +20% Manpower Recovery Speed
The great Lake Baikal is older than our people, older than this land, older than our gods. Even after we, our neighbours and all life perish, the lake will still be here. Rich as it is, the lake greatly helps in sustaining our people, and therefore more warriors can be enlisted for our armies without fear of being undermanned in resource collecting.

Big Fish Eat Little Fish - +20% Vassal Income
While subjected as a tributary state to the Khalkka, we stand strong enough to demand tribute from our weaker neighbours. They enjoy our protection from any other tribes closerby, and thus we can demand more from their spoils.

Yasak - +10% Goods Produced; +1 Diplomatic Relations
The Russian Empire from the west has come to us. Settling near our lands, they now demand that we pay them yasak, a tribute in fur. In exchange, they gift us with weapons, tobacco, crystal beads and rare gems. The people feel satisfied at this exchange, and a feast is held every year. This way, our relations with the Russians strengthen and our everyday life gets richer and even more pleasant.

The Manchu Menace - +1 Attrition to Enemies
With the fall of the Ming, the Manchurians started ruling over China. And now they desire the ancestral lands of the Mongols! We can't let them have it without putting up a fight first.

Kneel to Russia - +20% Better Relations Over Time
The Manchurians quickly overwhelmed our neighbors in Mongolia. It's very clear that we in the north can't even put a fight to them. So our only way to survive is to pledge allegiance to the Russians. Under their protection, we might live on, even if not fully independent, and keep the legacy of Temujin alive.

 

[magnusvejby]

I agree, I did not take my time to read all of it tho, there is a lot of text

But I have tried playing as one of the Siberian tribes, and that was one of the most boring playtroughs I ever had played I only went 15 years in and left the game, not fun at all .

Again I did not read all of it but I agree there should be something unique in playing them, and something 2 do. But I have a feeling that this will be dealt with in the next patch.

 

[FleetingRain]

Kind-of necroing this post because I added Buryat ideas. Only one left is Khodynt, but I have put that on hold because I'm doing research for my other suggestion (the African one).

 

[Vaximillian]

The only way the Siberian natives can be improved is by scavenging their tags for use by other, much more necessary and relevant, nations.

 

[FleetingRain]

Well, my suggestion merges three tags in one so there would be a net gain of two!

 

[AirikrStrife]

I'm so happy to find someone who cares that much about siberia! I just lvoe that place, it's so interesting. I actually made a siberia mod I never releasedabout a year ago.

First: I actually had one successful game with the chukchi, invading northern japan and colonizing all the way down to California. Never been that succesful later though and it was pretty slow game most of the time.

So, uniting the Chukotko-Kamchatkan tags as one nation would be about as ahistoric as the Yeren state, so why not. Koryak not to good a name though, only represents the people inhabiting penzhina. I would consider Chavchuveny a better tag, especially since the chukchi people never lived that far south, their homeland chukotka being only barely visible as a island looking wasteland being part of the alaska peninsula. Thus adding up Kargyn and Penzhina under a mutual tag is pretty reasonable. How to handle Kamchatka from this premise I think there is to ways, make it uncolonized, or let it be it's own country with it's own culture, thus having Kamchatkan and Chukotkan as two members of the family. If you really want chukotka within the game that little piece of wasteland should be made it's own province with Chukchi as owning country. My way of handling this wouldn't be as clean as you're proposal, but it would be fairly quick for a united federation to arise. Also Kamchatkan culture shouldn't be present west of penzhina at all. Being replaced by Tungus (if using existing cultures) or adding Lamut as a new culture.

Talking about cultures the Evenki culture group encompassing Yukaghir, Tungus, Buryat and Yakutsk is fairly ridiculous. Buryat should definitly go to Altaic group with it's mongolic brothers which they always had close ties to. Yakutsk should probably move into the same group, although the range of the culture should be largely decreased. Yukaghir should rely be an isolate, not only was it an isolated language but also the culture were fairly isolated strange from neighbouring ones. Evenk and Lamut should form it'sown culture group being called "Tungusic" As it really is, Evenki being a Tungusic language, not the other way around as EUIV gives it -.-

So Yakutsk people were actually the people who handled russian colonization the best of all Siberian natives, which you can see by the fact that russians are the minority in Yakutsk still today. Yakutsk people very easil adapting to russian kapitalism even starting to kapitalize on more "primitive" siberian tribes themselves. Thus I see a Yakutsk state (or Sakha as it should be called) as reasonable to have in the game as Yeren or Buryatia. In the mod I have linked in my profile message, there exists just such a yakutsk state. Three provinces, one producing gold, one with an important center of trade.

To the matter of Yeren, which I've been raging on about in countless threads. I don't mind them being there, but their historical accuracy is zero. . . so I've been using that state to claim legitimacy to all other indigenous states I've been proposing My way to handle the ethnical diversity that outer Manchuria was, in my old mod, was to ignore the Nivks and then accept that everyone else in the area where tungusic, so just brand them as 'Amur' and from them into the Tungus group. Then split Sakhalin into two halves and let Ainu have south and Yeren north with respective cultures. Rest of Manchuria should get Jurchen culture which should also be part of the Tungus group and upon uniting into Manchuria it should change to Manchu, being part of the Chinese group.

Some other proposals I had for siberian states can be seen here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...es-of-the-midnight-land.891056/#post-20209786

I was planning on making that reality in a small mod I'm going to make during holyday break.

I'm gonna give more thoughts on the political system another day. It's getting late where I am.

 

[ywxiao]

Ainu is not SCC though?

I believe they are native Japanese prior to the immigration and dominance of Chinese/Korean settlers.

They are supposed to be animist and same culture group as Ryukyu and Taiwan natives. Not too sure on this since Japanese history books are as accurate as the Illiad and Odyssey.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Ainu is a unique group of people, not proven to be related to any other people though a lot of tries have been made. They're not japanese. The natives of Okinawa are still related to japanese people and the natives of taiwan are related to the peoples of indonesia.

There is however a lot of debate about this. There are attempts to link ainu to japanese.

Ainu is sometimes considered "siberian" in the sense of belonging to the siberian cultural world, sakhalin and kurils being part of russian asia and hokkaido close by, they had close realtions to nivkhs, shared religious practice with them and also co-lived with Itelmens.

And in the game they're a siberian clan council.

 

[FleetingRain]

Ainu is not SCC though?

I believe they are native Japanese prior to the immigration and dominance of Chinese/Korean settlers.

They are supposed to be animist and same culture group as Ryukyu and Taiwan natives. Not too sure on this since Japanese history books are as accurate as the Illiad and Odyssey.

Nope, they're 100% a SCC. I didn't know that either at first, too. For gameplay reasons, Ryukyu is Japanese and Taiwan is... malay... while Ainu is with the Kamchatkans due to language similarities. I'd particularly keep them where they are.

I'm so happy to find someone who cares that much about siberia! I just lvoe that place, it's so interesting. I actually made a siberia mod I never releasedabout a year ago.

Hah, finally someone who doesn't simply want to see them dead and gone!

So, uniting the Chukotko-Kamchatkan tags as one nation would be about as ahistoric as the Yeren state, so why not. Koryak not to good a name though, only represents the people inhabiting penzhina. I would consider Chavchuveny a better tag, especially since the chukchi people never lived that far south, their homeland chukotka being only barely visible as a island looking wasteland being part of the alaska peninsula.

Kind of. Currently the koryak live in the Kamchatka Krai which is more or less the region I gave them in the OP, while they were too spread before. Chavchuveny, from what I've heard both from Wikipedia and other more scholarly sources, was a kind of koryak tribe, most specifically the settler kind. I really wanted a tag to unite both settlers and hunters/fishermen, and Koryak seemed the closest.

Also, Chukchi was quite far north, but they did have *some* presence in the in-game Kagyrgyn province. But it was only in the northernmost part of it, the province really is poorly divided.

Thus adding up Kargyn and Penzhina under a mutual tag is pretty reasonable. How to handle Kamchatka from this premise I think there is to ways, make it uncolonized, or let it be it's own country with it's own culture, thus having Kamchatkan and Chukotkan as two members of the family.

Really? It seemed to me the province was quite populated back then, maybe even more than Penzhina.

If you really want chukotka within the game that little piece of wasteland should be made it's own province with Chukchi as owning country. My way of handling this wouldn't be as clean as you're proposal, but it would be fairly quick for a united federation to arise. Also Kamchatkan culture shouldn't be present west of penzhina at all. Being replaced by Tungus (if using existing cultures) or adding Lamut as a new culture.

Note that I'm trying to work with culture also by language. This is why I made the "koryak nation" be of "itelmen" culture and in the "kamchatkan" group along with the ainu. There's quite a bit of abstraction here, but part of it is exactly to avoid clone OPMs as the current scenario, and to have the "kamchatkan" tag's starting position be a challenge in itself, while Khodynt would be another (shitty OPM in shitty region), Ainu would have its own issues (Japan pls stop) and Buryatia would have the easier life but would be the first to meet Russia.

But yes, the Lamut part bothered me too. I wanted to avoid adding new cultures as the devs themselves have said they don't want to add any tagless culture until they reduce the number of tagless cultures but eh, it's not going to kill anyone anyway.

Talking about cultures the Evenki culture group encompassing Yukaghir, Tungus, Buryat and Yakutsk is fairly ridiculous. Buryat should definitly go to Altaic group with it's mongolic brothers which they always had close ties to.

I thought the same at first, but decided against it for gameplay reasons. First, it would become a group with 3-4 cultures and only one 3dev OPM isolated tag. That seems reeeeally bad to me. It will also become really ugly in 1.14 as an expanding Buryatia would easily become the union for the Altaic, and I don't really want to give an easier life for any of the SCCs.

Yakutsk should probably move into the same group, although the range of the culture should be largely decreased. Yukaghir should rely be an isolate, not only was it an isolated language but also the culture were fairly isolated strange from neighbouring ones. Evenk and Lamut should form it'sown culture group being called "Tungusic" As it really is, Evenki being a Tungusic language, not the other way around as EUIV gives it -.-

The only problem with that would be what I said, making Altaic even bigger than it already is. Not sure that would be a good idea.

So Yakutsk people were actually the people who handled russian colonization the best of all Siberian natives, which you can see by the fact that russians are the minority in Yakutsk still today. Yakutsk people very easil adapting to russian kapitalism even starting to kapitalize on more "primitive" siberian tribes themselves. Thus I see a Yakutsk state (or Sakha as it should be called) as reasonable to have in the game as Yeren or Buryatia. In the mod I have linked in my profile message, there exists just such a yakutsk state. Three provinces, one producing gold, one with an important center of trade.

But wouldn't it be even more ahistorical than Yeren/Koryak? I mean, they didn't even discover gold before Russians appeared.

To the matter of Yeren, which I've been raging on about in countless threads. I don't mind them being there, but their historical accuracy is zero. . . so I've been using that state to claim legitimacy to all other indigenous states I've been proposing My way to handle the ethnical diversity that outer Manchuria was, in my old mod, was to ignore the Nivks and then accept that everyone else in the area where tungusic, so just brand them as 'Amur' and from them into the Tungus group. Then split Sakhalin into two halves and let Ainu have south and Yeren north with respective cultures. Rest of Manchuria should get Jurchen culture which should also be part of the Tungus group and upon uniting into Manchuria it should change to Manchu, being part of the Chinese group.

Yeah, this kinda seems to work. I also had a lot of issues with Yeren but didn't do much because I didn't plan to make any new provinces and whatnot. The Jurchen->Manchu solution is also quite creative and makes it seem less awkward than what we have now.

What would be their government, though? Horde or SCC?

Some other proposals I had for siberian states can be seen here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...es-of-the-midnight-land.891056/#post-20209786

I haven't stopped to read about Western Siberia as it's quite "crowded" already, but these ideas seem good. I might try to add them to my personal mod and see how things go.

I'm gonna give more thoughts on the political system another day. It's getting late where I am.

Meanwhile, it's 4am here. What am I doing with my life.

 

[AirikrStrife]

So I did get started on a new Siberia mod, got to excited and couldn't wait for christmas break.

All those names starting with chauv or chu are usually referring to thehroupings within the different "chukotkan" people who lived by reindeer herding. The Chuckhis, which I've read the most about, called themselves Louravetlan, then chukchi was the reindeer herders and Anqallyt who lived by the sea and were fisherman. Reason why I liked the middle tag best is because it doesn't give precedence to any of the major divisions of the chukotkan people (Koryak, Alutor, Kerek or Chukchi) but rather tells us it's the people of reindeer herders. But you were right about how far south the chukchis live, I miss read the map a bit.

It's always a balance working with cultures and culture groups in relation to languages and everything in this game. The game and a lot of modders have come up with some pretty creative solutions trying to represent the world decently enough for their current scope. My new proposal I'm working for in my mod is a "Paleo-Siberian" grouping. Making Kamchatkan, Chukotkan, Yugahir, Ainu and Nivkh be part of it (I changed my minds on the nivkhs). I just split up Sakhalin in three parts to make up for it. Middle part has Amur culture and is the original province of Sakhalin as Sakhalin is based on the manchu name for the island. South part is Karafuto, the japanese name for the island itself based on the ainu name which is also culture and belonging in the mod. Northern part is Yi-mif, which is the native Nivkh name for the island (and it did take me some time to dig that name up). I haven't decided yet whether Nivkh should start as part of Yeren or rather as a vassal. All provinces are currently identical, 3 in dev producing fish but will try to change that a bit. I'm considering also to split kamchatka into more provinces. Possibly also a southern Ainu province. I'm also researching possibilities to carve out more provinces for Nivkhs, currently two provinces, Northern Sakhalin and Deren. Around 1444 they should have bigger territory especially expanding north.

I did throw Buryat and Yakutsk into altai. Although reading your argument I might change my mind, my second solution I'm considering however would be to break up the altai group. I definitly think Buryats should stick together with Mongolians.

My current tungus group consists of Evenki, Lamut, Amur and Jurchen. I plan to give a OPM to Evenki and Lamut each. Yeren should be an SCC but might make it to weak though. Not sure yet.

I also made most of Siberia a bit richer. It's always forgotten how important the siberian fur trade was for the rise of the russian empire so working on increasing production value to 2 or 3 in all provinces that isn't too cold

 

[AirikrStrife]

Over to the political part. I think the random "get colonist" after 30 year is a bit too much. My suggestion would rather be to create some system similar to the aztecs or mayans. A kind of ticking meter which increases when your successfull that will let you take out rewards (such as sending a colonist) once it's high enough. And also perhaps give soe more boost to SCC in general. Looking at how easy it is for anyone to exterminate them as of now compared to how long it took the russians to subdue the chukchis.

 

[FleetingRain]

So I did get started on a new Siberia mod, got to excited and couldn't wait for christmas break.

All those names starting with chauv or chu are usually referring to thehroupings within the different "chukotkan" people who lived by reindeer herding. The Chuckhis, which I've read the most about, called themselves Louravetlan, then chukchi was the reindeer herders and Anqallyt who lived by the sea and were fisherman. Reason why I liked the middle tag best is because it doesn't give precedence to any of the major divisions of the chukotkan people (Koryak, Alutor, Kerek or Chukchi) but rather tells us it's the people of reindeer herders. But you were right about how far south the chukchis live, I miss read the map a bit.

Well, this makes sense too. I'm already using the Chavchuvenian flag anyway, keeping the name wouldn't be that absurd, by your logic.

Everything else about culture would depend on more research for me to give an opinion. It looks good at least.

Over to the political part. I think the random "get colonist" after 30 year is a bit too much. My suggestion would rather be to create some system similar to the aztecs or mayans. A kind of ticking meter which increases when your successfull that will let you take out rewards (such as sending a colonist) once it's high enough. And also perhaps give soe more boost to SCC in general. Looking at how easy it is for anyone to exterminate them as of now compared to how long it took the russians to subdue the chukchis.

30 year was some random MTTH as an example It could work, actually. Just give the reform mechanic to Shamanism (my mod changes Kongo to West African so it's really a Siberian-only religion) and work from there with trigger-only events and whatnot. But what you suggest as boosts, and how many reforms?

 

[AirikrStrife]

New solution to the old OPM tags of the Kamchatkans. Draw more provinces Currently keeping all the tags, Chukchi 3 provinces 17 development, the Chavchuv at 2 provinces of 13 and Kamchadals at 3 provinces of 13. That way you will get the diversity and the actual warfare of the region. If you want to guarantee a east siberian powerhouse one can also add up a historical enemyship between Chukchi and Chavchuv

 

[AirikrStrife]

Everything else about culture would depend on more research for me to give an opinion. It looks good at least.



30 year was some random MTTH as an example It could work, actually. Just give the reform mechanic to Shamanism (my mod changes Kongo to West African so it's really a Siberian-only religion) and work from there with trigger-only events and whatnot. But what you suggest as boosts, and how many reforms?

Chukotko-Kamchatkan has reached no consensual relationship with any other family. The two most common languages to connect them with is eskimo-aleut and the nivkh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralo-Siberian_languages

Nivkh and Ainu are in similiar spots. For the Yugahir it's commonly Uralic languages researchers have been looking for a tie. All these languages together with yeniseian get's grouped together in the umbrella term of Paleo-Siberian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleosiberian_languages

The main reason why I don't like to include Yukagir in my paleo-siberian group would be because it doesn't tie together with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhotsk_culture

Yukaghir together with Uralic would be pretty useless though. I considered putting Kamchatkan with inuits and create Yupik as a country in western alaska (not sure it should be SCC or native american tribe), but wouldn't work well with the Nivkh and Ainu, who would feel to said being left alone only them.

I don't have more concrete proposal for mechanics. But I feel that it shouldn't just be an event that happens to all clan council, but rather as an achievment to the most successfull one. I can also see a kind of event there the original culture of the province remains while it's integrated as it wouldn't be neccessary to kill of the language and identity of those who join into the clan council

 

[FleetingRain]

I think I have an idea for this "achievement" you suggested, but I'll look further into it this weekend. It could be used to "revamp" the reform mechanics to the native americans too, and not necessarily be attached to religion.

For now, I have reused Chukchi tag (CHU) for Nivkh. My plan is to redraw some provinces so that Chavchuveny has 3 (now 2), Kamchadals has 2 (now 1), Miyoo Gasan is divided in 3 and Yeren gets the biggest part of it, and Sakhalin is divided by 3 and Ainu get the two southernmost provinces. This way, all four OPMs are used in a livelier scenario (even though Khodynt still is piss-poor). I still have to see what I'll do with the other tagless cultures (Samoyed, Ostyak, Lamut, Evenki, Yakut). They could get OPMs, which at least would be better than the current setup because they wouldn't be isolated.

To think I wanted to reduce the number of used tags...