Impossible to beat late game Awakened Empire

[TheBromgrev]

Wrong fleet comp. Try long range destroyers and battleships.

This plus kinetic artillery are your best friends. That, and blobbing.

 

[rittstar]

op can you share the save? i would like to see that amazing battle.
or some ss.

when i am home i like to share you my save (ironman vanilla, hard difficulty, year 2345, 69 worlds, my fleet 1502/1842, actually fleetpower 160k+, it is splitted up, combined under one admiral it should be more) where an awaken empire is on the run.. you can try to play with him a bit.. the AFE has arround 350k fleet

first the AFE try to beat his neighbour from the southern federation, but after 20 years they make white peace, i watched the war a bit, the AFE split up his fleets blockading 4-5 planets, and try to invade a 3 planet system where two planets still had spaceports and the AFE army transports always become destroyed, stupid AFE

right now the AFE expanded a bit and request that i become their contractor or whatver this is, right after i start to integrate a vassal next to them, dont know if this was related to each other.. so you can have a lot of fun with him now and try what you can achieve, i have arc weapons researched but no ship with slots for that yet, i recognized now that i missed their is a new layout

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yv0re7voaercrup/AADl1qlJtjwPP6h9N6NaChaZa?dl=0

 

[Simoom]

The best time to beat a FE is usually right after it awakes; letting it colonize or conquer more planets & expand its fleet is bad.

If you are underpowered compared to a FE, the best way to defeat it is to create multiple small fleets and play cat & mouse while you gradually take out its defenses & spaceports, clearing way for your army (and preventing it from building more ships).

It'll take some save & reloads... which, while we are on the subject of, you may as well use to prevent a FE from waking up in the first place (until you are ready) xD If you have 100K fleet power by the time a FE wakes up, you are probably gonna be fine.

Ship loadout-wise... I personally have great success with a cruiser + battleship combo. This is my loadout:

Cruiser: The cruisers are my fleet's meatshields. Because of their default combat AI behavior, they will always be in front of the battleships. I therefore maximize them for survivabiluty and defensive capabilities - this means as much shield + shield regen as possible, in combination with as much anti-missile & anti-strike craft firepower as possible...

• 3x Flak Artillery
• 1x Fighter Squadron
• 2x Point Defense
• 5x Hyper Shields
• 1x Neutronium Armor
• 2x Shield Capacitor

Battleships: The majority of my fleet is comprised of battleships (2:1 ratio to cruisers). They are specced for a singular purpose - long range bombardment. For this purpose, I use strictly kinetic weaponry - because they are reasonably effective against both shield & armor (unlike missiles, which have no bonus, and energy weapons, which have poor range and require pairing). The battleship thread may have stated that kinetic artillery mixed with plasma thrower yields the best results, but this requires you to research both energy & kinetic weapon repeatable at the same time (whereas if you go kinetic-only, you can let your physicist research repeatable shield tech). The focus-fire issue with kinetic is no problem once you reach sufficient number of battleships, that you cause massive enemy attrition before they can even return fire.

• 1x Giga Cannon
• 4x Kinetic Artillery
• 4x Hyper Shields
• 2x Shield Capacitor

 

[Insane Commander]

There's something really wrong with your capacity : power ratio. I had much bigger numbers with less ships. Try to get better numbers and range weapons.


Get yourself a big fleet and one or two smaller yet capable fleets with transports. Start the war with very low demand % - ask only for their home system, it will be about 20% or so. Engage or lure their main fleet with the big fleet. In the same time quickly go for undeveloped planets to get score faster. They should surrender soon after you hit the score (with grabbing their new planets) no matter the battle score regarding the fleets.
In the next war do the same, demanding their another best developed planet.
They can't really keep up after you strip them off their strongest systems.

I did something like this in my first game, but capturing about 15 planets each war. I waited until their fleets were on the other side of the galaxy and declared war, asking for as many planets as I could. I stopped because I want to start another game in 1.4, but I think with 4-5 wars I would have taken all of their territory (20%-25% of a 1000 star galaxy). They did attack me, but by blockading their planets I won the wars very fast, before they could cause any serious problems.

If they are busy fighting somebody else, divide your fleet in as many groups as possible, but making sure each one can survive against the enemy bases. Then attack many systems and blockade their planets. The war will be over in months.

 

[Kerovnian]

Thanks guys.
I guess I should go and dig into the Wiki a lot more since there is a lot of stuff I did not consider during fleet design.

 

[nfmarque]

Here's a few saves to mess around with. Some of them have different comps and start at different periods.
To answer a few statement:
The hit rates are at 91% in the little circle.
I can't avoid a fallen empire that has awakened, declined me as a research partner (The Keepers of Knowledge) and chosen to go to war with me. This happens when fallen empires wake up, you either capitulate or go to war.

Maybe I'm just bad at loadouts? The last one I tried had zero point defense since the enemy was not using missiles. Heavy on shields and capacitors, while matching them with mostly Tachyon Lances and Photon Disruptors, with a few Gamma Lasers and Disintegration Beams mixed in. I had a slightly different comp to deal with the other fallen empires/unbidden and it seemed to work fine.

Just seems kind of OP for them to have so few worlds and a fleet capacity that I can't possibly match. Unless I'm supposed to fill my fleet with smaller ships. The enemy fleet is almost half battleships.

Thank you for the save! i had an amazing battle
Fun war, thx.

i remodel ur ships for
kinets long range shield killer
plasma armor killers

Battle :
Fleets: FA 300k+ vs shadowcollective(player empire) 160k+30k
Result: shadowcollective (player empire) wins

Report:
after i upgraded your fleet to the new designs i jumped the 160k to your home world where i massed another 30k. But as soon i jump on you home system the awakened empire show up with 300k+ fleet and battle began ... , the 30k fleet flanked and turned the tide, and while this was going on, your planets kept churning out ships and joining the battle (stalingrad t34s).

added the saves with the key moments.
and thx, that was an awesome empire mate.

 

[Grinsel]

mhh...i forgotten that...its not cool that threat?

 

[Agamemnic]

Thanks guys.
I guess I should go and dig into the Wiki a lot more since there is a lot of stuff I did not consider during fleet design.

I think your original point still stands despite the 'disagreements'. AEs snowball like crazy. I once had a isolationist FE awaken on the other side of the galaxy. Expanded unchecked within 10-15 years and had a 900k fleet (that's after taking control of ~20% of the huge galaxy). Ridiculous really.

 

[Elothan]

Well, I think the idea is to not let it go around unchecked for 15 years!
Awakended FE's are (and are supposed tob be) a major threat to the galaxy.
Leaving the scourge or unbidden unchecked are not advisable either.

 

[The Founder]

I think your original point still stands despite the 'disagreements'. AEs snowball like crazy. I once had a isolationist FE awaken on the other side of the galaxy. Expanded unchecked within 10-15 years and had a 900k fleet (that's after taking control of ~20% of the huge galaxy). Ridiculous really.

There are some reports that say the aFE is not using sectors. Even with it's +5 Core systems, it will hit inefficiency quickly. And even if it builds Science Labs, it will not actually queue anything.

A lot of it's power comes from the awakening event itself. It get's free Fleet on top of what it still has (at least 40k).
It's resources are maxed out (has to be, changing the type of the country resets those counters). And due to thier extra fast building time, they can translate those resources into ships quickly. But compared to that, everything they capture will be an issue. The population will be unhappy due to Ethos and Policies. While it adds Navy Capacity, it wil not add nearly as many resource income.

 

[Agamemnic]

Well, I think the idea is to not let it go around unchecked for 15 years!
Awakended FE's are (and are supposed tob be) a major threat to the galaxy.
Leaving the scourge or unbidden unchecked are not advisable either.

The FE awakened with no other FE to oppose. I was frantically expanding and making alliances to try match its fleet power. But the AE remained 'overwhelming'. In the end, had to game the system by baiting its 900k fleets with a single corvette while I occupied its planets.

Felt very cheap - both my victory and the AEs power.

Even the Preth or Unbidden don't snowball that fast. AE is able to take planets at a war score cost of around 3-5. So unlike a preth/unbidden, they're not expanding system by system. All they have to do is win 1 war and its an extra 10-20 planets with +100k in insta-fleet power.

edit: the problem is that the AE is more powerful taking over empires than enlisting the help of AI/player empires. 10 planets will give an AE way more resources and fleet power than it would normal empires (and far more quickly too). In fact, according to the current game mechanics, an AE is better off just waging war against every normal empire instead of making them satellites and whatnot.

 

[Elothan]

Good point, we should buff the scourge as well. Fighting an ae is not necessarily to match them in fleet power,. But exploit their weaknesses.

 

[Slarkon]

Well, I think the idea is to not let it go around unchecked for 15 years!
Awakended FE's are (and are supposed tob be) a major threat to the galaxy.
Leaving the scourge or unbidden unchecked are not advisable either.

leaving the scourge is the best thing evar - there is some build in limit to how big they can expand - seems to stop at around 33% of the galaxy so if they are far from your borders let them do what they do and you focus on the rest of the galaxy

 

[scaper12123]

Either you need to wait for longer and build up your technological power, or you need to change up your fleet composition. If you keep researching, you WILL outgun the AFE. They don't do research, so you can be absolutely sure you will surpass them. As for your fleet, you'd be better off balancing it a bit better. Personally I use a 1:2 ratio of Cruisers and Battleships to Corvettes and Destroyers. The smaller ships are important if you're taking on the FE; remember that you always lose a lot of them, and that means you're NOT losing battleships.

I think the only real issue with AFE fleets is that they shoot far above their naval capacity. What's actually happening for you is that they're building thousands of ships because they have the ENERGY capacity to mantain them, not just the naval capacity. They get a massive buff to energy and the AI's immediate reaction to having excess energy to spare seems to be building new ships, even in excess of their naval capacity. I think this is something that needs to be addressed immediately, but either the AFE's resource buffs need to be nerfed or the punishment for excess navy should be drastically increased.

 

[Agamemnic]

If you keep researching, you WILL outgun the AFE. They don't do research, so you can be absolutely sure you will surpass them.

Unlikely I think. They start at level 5 of all repeatable tech. By the time you're even close to that (assuming you even want to play for that long), the FE would've taken over the galaxy and gobbled you up.

either the AFE's resource buffs need to be nerfed or the punishment for excess navy should be drastically increased.

Agreed. FEs are supposed to be very powerful but they still need some logical rules to follow so the player can predict and adapt.

 

[scaper12123]

Unlikely I think. They start at level 5 of all repeatable tech. By the time you're even close to that (assuming you even want to play for that long), the FE would've taken over the galaxy and gobbled you up.

FEs are supposed to be very powerful but they still need some logical rules to follow so the player can predict and adapt.

I've never found that to be the case, personally. As long as you can somewhat get on their level, they'll be unlikely to start a war with you. In fact, one AFE in my most recent game demanded subjugation and I turned them down. They never declared war on me because I have a substantial armada. The AI seems to be designed not to jump into risky wars that would cost them most of their navy, which makes sense as they would immediately be attacked by every other empire. As for the other empires, they only attacked one neighboring empire who had a very tiny army. They took some planets from them and that was that.

 

[Agamemnic]

The AI seems to be designed not to jump into risky wars that would cost them most of their navy

Right about that but there's a neat trick to bait them into a war ...insult + declare rival + keep insulting ... they'll eventually declare war (without fail). Had a xenophile FE declare war on me despite my 250k fleet to her ~60k

Very useful if you've got the power to defeat them but can't declare war (e.g. fanatic pacifist or federation/defence pact)

edit: not disagreeing with you point, just sharing a random tip

 

[The Founder]

Right about that but there's a neat trick to bait them into a war ...insult + declare rival + keep insulting ... they'll eventually declare war (without fail). Had a xenophile FE declare war on me despite my 250k fleet to her ~60k

Very useful if you've got the power to defeat them but can't declare war (e.g. fanatic pacifist or federation/defence pact)

There is a AI personality stat called "Bravery".
All FE have set it to x2
Honobound Warriors have x1.5
Most others x1, unless they are opportunistic.

So FE are near suicidally "brave".

 

[Agamemnic]

Been poking around the AE's mechanics a bit and re-considered my view. AE doesn't really snowball. It's just the aggro AI:

AE has min fleet cap of 1000. The extra planets don't materially add to this
AE will always keep producing ships even in excess of fleet cap
AE will only stop/slow down fleet expansion when mineral income/reserves are depleted (or energy income but its usually minerals that are the limiting factor)