impossible diff, won on turn 95, also link to unit perks!

[unmerged(502447)]

i just had a military win, defeated all 8 enemy great mages. got the last one on turn 95, been up all night. [which is ok i work nights, had the night off.]

setup:
game installed from steam, no expansions. updated. it is now 8am on thursday, june 7, 2012

difficulty:impossible

largest map size, maximum opponents, cylyndrical, pangea

mage:used that purple undead fellows image, Rjak's image
took:monsters, color red, renamed the mage.
spent points as follows: 4 points, +20% money
3 points, +20% food
3 more points, grabbed 3 [out of the four] 1 point spells. i like all 4 of those spells, i vary back and forth on which three i grab.

=======

general strategy
capital works on the mana trap>alchemy>shamans>university>military academy tree [this gives me old trolls]
a second city works on the troll tree [market>ratmen guild>tax office>troll bridge]
a third city works on the goblin tree [for goblin sharpshooters][also my goblin tree city had pumpkins so i had free regeneration on all mu archers!]
another city works on food...
then most cities work on money.

early game want to spam goblin archers and settlers!
prepping everything for the first trolls.

once i found out about how broken diplomacy was, that made game, since i had been working on my tech trees like i should.
when you go to make an alliance or pact, you can demand gold from the enemy. just type 9999 in the spot and it will fill on the enemy's max gold savings for you.

also note to noobs, units can be upgraded in the field!!!
when you have a unit selected look for a star icon, which allows you to turn a goblin archer instantly into a goblin sharpshooter!
look for an up arrow, that allows you to add masterwork armor for example.

here is a list of perks!!!

http://warlockmota.wikia.com/wiki/Unit_Perks

=======

that was pretty much it!
spammed goblin archers and settlers early game.
went with a plan to build my economy and build my tech trees.
abused the diplomacy system.

=====

o yea 1 more note to noobs. the cities must be 4 tiles away. 3 empty tiles must be between the 2 castles.

beat 8 players on impossible diff on turn 95.

i would not recommend this game to a friend UNTIL you guys fix that diplomacy system abuse. getting thousands and thousands of gold for my armies out of the diplomacy system just seems broken to me. that diplomacy system needs tons of work. anyways, i like this game and i commend the creators. you guys did a fine job!

gl, hf, and gg!

good luck, have fun, and good game!

here is that link again for unit perks, im a little blitzed i been up all night playing this game. [also i would like the cycle idle units button to be put on the left side of the screen, sure would be nice.]

http://warlockmota.wikia.com/wiki/Unit_Perks

gg,

-BLOODSHOT
'If it moves shoot it, if it doesnnt move, shoot it anyways!' -Ye Ole Ancient Video Game Adage

 

[UncleJJ]

i would not recommend this game to a friend UNTIL you guys fix that diplomacy system abuse. getting thousands and thousands of gold for my armies out of the diplomacy system just seems broken to me. that diplomacy system needs tons of work. anyways, i like this game and i commend the creators. you guys did a fine job!

Ok wonderful :wacko: I was thinking until I saw this, what a let down

Just because the diplomacy system is broken when you declare war, it doesn't mean you have to use that "feature" which is so obviously broken. I never use that even though it would make my games so much easier, it would also make them worthless and a waste of my time. Why not play the same game without doing that? That would be a much better challenge and obviously take a bit longer, even though I don't doubt the eventual result.

Anyway, that's just my opinion and you're welcome to hold you own and do what you like. Thanks for posting, it should start a discussion about the ethical treatment of AI opponents during a game :rofl:


JJ

 

[unmerged(497726)]

also note to noobs, units can be upgraded in the field!!!

It's kind of funny, but I've been playing this game for a couple of weeks now and it was only yesterday that I realized that any perks available in a city are automatically given to any units who qualify for them produced in that city. In-the-field upgrading was the only way I knew they could be done until recently. I can't believe how much more gold efficient my games are now with that in mind. Not to mention, early expansion is so much easier with every unit created already being perked up some.

As for the diplomacy exploit, I didn't know about and I still won't use it. The only thing I use diplomacy for at all in this game is to declare war or to tell the AI to shove it when they come sniffing around with extortion on their minds. Otherwise, all diplomacy in my games takes place at the point of a sword.

 

[The Apprentice]

i just had a military win, defeated all 8 enemy great mages. got the last one on turn 95, been up all night...

once i found out about how broken diplomacy was, that made game, since i had been working on my tech trees like i should.
when you go to make an alliance or pact, you can demand gold from the enemy. just type 9999 in the spot and it will fill on the enemy's max gold savings for you.

Proclaiming how you won by using a severe exploit strikes me as odd. I'm glad you had fun? But winning by functionally cheating isn't really regarded as challenging...

 

[player1 fanatic]

Hehe... I noticed this diplomacy issue too.

Usually players are too preoccupied with AI demands that way too often go to war with them, when actually what you need is to get non-aggression (no demands anymore) and later alliance.
After that, each time they break treaty you can renegotiate for almost all of their gold or mana (never both).

100 gold and 100 mana for alliance/nap? AI disagrees.
10200 gold and no mana for alliance/nap? AI agrees

Currently, I'm close to getting my 2nd holy grounds win. AIs are just too profitable to make a war with them.

P.S.
I third game, maybe I'll stop using exploit. Like negotiating for gold and selecting 1 mana (or opposite), to not trigger diplomacy bug.

 

[unmerged(493174)]

Is it even an exploit? I've had the AI's throw hundreds of gold and mana at me for a pact, unprovoked on my part. If I ask for the same deal and they agree, that seems like how the game is intended to be played. I don't really understand/agree that the game should be played that way, but it doesn't look like it's unintentional on the developer's part.

 

[The Apprentice]

Because it allows the player to tap into the insanely high bonuses the AI get on Impossible to help vs the player, I concluded it was an exploit.

I imagine the only way to know if those types of diplomacy transactions are intended is for a Dev to clarify.

 

[unmerged(490512)]

Because of the broken diplomacy i only play always war now.

 

[unmerged(502447)]

resources aside

resources aside, the diplomacy system is still broken.

because i can 'make peace', put 1 or 2 or 3 old trolls standing RIGHT NEXT to the enemy capital... have a fresh turn...
demand all gold/mana from the enemy 'ally'... have THEM declare war [i dont even declare war, they do... they refuse to pay and therefore declare war and break peace treaty]
then my trolls immediately dismantle the enemy capitol.

i figured out the gold exploit, [and later the mana exploit] in mid game when i was bored with the way the AI kept breaking the treaties naturally.

so WITHOUT the resource exploit, the diplomacy system is still way broken. it kinda breaks the game.

i kinda prefer Dawn of War: Soulstorm or Total Annihilation 2, or Star Wars:The Old Republic, or Left 4 Dead 2, or Borderlands, or Command and Conquer 3 Kane's Wrath or ... etc etc...

this game was my 'gaming home' for a while... and i was considering the two expansions... but with the new reality of the diplomacy system being so FUBAR...

it needs a fix and a fix bad!!!

wait, hear that?
i think i hear a zombie....

"Those zombies don't kill themselves... well most of the time." -Lincoln123, on Steam

[what i am saying is, back to left 4 dead 2 for me, until that diplomacy system gets a major overhaul]

gg,
#BLOODSHOT#

 

[The Apprentice]

Yes, the diplomacy system in SP is "broken" in that the AI makes deals that give the player a ridiculous deal.

IE, an AI will trade all its gold (3.2k) for 100 Mana. Solution- don't trade with the AI until patch unless you want to make the game easier mode.

 

[unmerged(493586)]

spent points as follows: 4 points, +20% money
3 points, +20% food
3 more points, grabbed 3 [out of the four] 1 point spells. i like all 4 of those spells, i vary back and forth on which three i grab.

Okay. Now try:

1) Never war-stealing. Just use your normal economy to generate money/mana. Play on the same field the AI does. If the AI demands money, just refuse and go to war, or pay if you need to avoid war.

2) Don't spend any points. You don't have to. The game will be MUCH more challenging (and sometimes maybe impossible) to beat this way.

 

[redrum68]

Even better:
1. Permanent war
2. Spend 0 points
3. Don't do anything for the first 20 turns (click end turn 20 times when the game starts)

 

[unmerged(493757)]

Just don't exploit diplomacy and don't modify the starting perks of great mage, just choose difficulty, world setting then character then click start. The game is enjoyable enough with that setting.

For permanent war, if you choose impossible difficulty then choose 6 AI, and largest world setting, you'll be in permanent war soon.

Keep in mind that you must not add more than 6 AI, because it is easier, less than 6 AI is easier too. Basically don't change any game setting except difficulty and world size, also don't add more other world, just use the default other world and AI number that is tied to world setting, because more other world will screw AI progress and help you achieving your victory much easier. Finally don't modify any great mage perks, just pick which one that has the best face then start your game.

 

[unmerged(493586)]

Even better:
1. Permanent war
2. Spend 0 points
3. Don't do anything for the first 20 turns (click end turn 20 times when the game starts)

You can't be serious! Please tell me you actually play this way. I can't imagine skipping 20 turns.

I'm actually playing a 0 points large map, and it's taken roughly 200 turns to have a clear winning situation. It's the first game I've gotten it to this point - all the others it was obvious I'd lose.

 

[redrum68]

Indeed I do. Unfortunately, the AI still doesn't expand enough even given a 20 turn head start. I makes the first 50 turns you play (21-70) pretty tough since there are just tons of enemies and neutrals roaming around. But after you settle 6-7 cities then it's still easy to steamroll them. I also recommend putting the minimum number of other worlds since the AI doesn't use them.

 

[player1 fanatic]

I also recommend putting the minimum number of other worlds since the AI doesn't use them.

Wouldn't that make holy grounds victory very easy? You just need to get most of holy grounds in only other world.

 

[UncleJJ]

I've thought about this a little after my initial response and can see why the OP is not having as much fun as he could have. The strategies he's using have made the game trivially easy. He needs a bigger challenge and now as I get more experienced with how all the units works and how the AI behave I feel that too. So here is my proposal for him I shall certainly play some of my games this way myself.

There are three simple rules:

1. You must never take the capital city of an AI Great Mage. You can go to war, kill his units, take his other cities, make peace, counterspell, dispel, do whatever you like go into alliance if you want. But if you take ANY GM capital you have failed and instantly lose the game. This obviously disqualifies the Conquest victory condition, but that was too easy anyway, choose one of the others.

2. Never exploit the Diplomatic system to extract any gold or mana from an AI. If they offer a huge amount of gold or mana for peace or whatever you can accept if you want but MUST give it all back to them in your turn as a gift. That should improve relations :rofl:

3. Don't use Old Trolls. They are the most broken unit in the game, and are boring, use something else. Baby trolls are ok (in moderation), but no Old ones. Try it, you'll have more fun

I think that following these self imposed guidelines would make for a fun game and we might learn a lot about how the AI behaves once the player gets into an overwhelming position. This should allow the exploration and exploitation of the other worlds for those who have not done that much and will be required for the Holy Grounds VC

Until we get a stronger AI that puts up more of a fight this is a way to get interesting situations on impossible level for experienced players that wish to avoid some of the worst loopholes and weaknesses in the game

JJ

 

[redrum68]

Wouldn't that make holy grounds victory very easy? You just need to get most of holy grounds in only other world.

I play conquest only since all the other victory conditions are pretty much broken. So I don't use the other worlds since the AI doesn't either.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Don't worry about AI, they gets massive economy cheats to compensate (on higher difficulties). Still, AI would need better "AI", to utilize that money properly.


P.S.
In other news, I got my second victory without ever going into war.

 

[Dragoon.x]

It would help if the AI would do what humans does. Use the mana to buff their units. I see the AI keep buffing every city they have regardless if it makes sense or not. It's OK to buff your cities with production improvement spells but not if it impairs your ability to fight a war. Imagine how challenging the game would be if the AI would send a unit of court wolves fully buffed with with magic weapons, immunity spells and leviathan. I for myself have yet in 42 hours of play never found the need to cast a unit enchantment dispel spell even once.