It could fit the Awoken status but the Imperium never stopped expanding.
Imperium of Man build
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It could fit the Awoken status but the Imperium never stopped expanding.
During the time of the Emperor it wasn't quite as bad as "modern" Imperium, but the Xenos were still destroyed without mercy. The Emperor wanted to unite the galaxy under Human rule, and aliens had no place in his Imperium's future.
I would rather say that Imperium is trying to defend itself than expand. Fallen Empire fits Imperium of Men in the last years of 41K.
Check out the first contact with the Interex at the end of Horus Rising.
Interesting. The stuff with the Interex happened after some members of Horus's legion had already turned to Chaos.
I'm asking, mainly because I'm trying to parse what is the Emperor's policy, what the policy of the empire was (which might not be the same), and what might be the result of Chaos taint.
Obviously, it's fricking Warhammer, so the answer is always "Depends on who is writing and what module/expansion/source book it is."
If, as you say, it was the Emperor's policy, it makes one wonder whether Chaos taint was inevitable. I've always harbored the idea that the Emperor was actually incompetent, and he is to blame (indirectly) for just about everything bad that happens after he starts the various wars/crusades.
Which makes me wonder what traits in Stellaris the Emperor should have if you run an Imperium at the time of his rule.
Thing is, the original empire should be, if anything "fanatic materialist", for that was the Imperial Truth at the time: Rationalism trumping religion, no gods or whatsoever, no psykers, etc. They were hard materialists vying for genetic ascension, so to speak.
Latter it devolved into a military junta and a highly militarized war machine in order to face the Horus insurrection and regain the losses that the death of the emperor produced. Then, it became a theocracy once the cult of the emperor become too much of a social force within the empire. And finally, it became an stagnant xenophobic empire.
The thing is, we really don't know if the xenophobia was a bug or a feature. I am pretty damn sure that no society could sustain centuries of foreign agression and total war without turning xenophobic to a degree. It is certainly quite puzzling to see the Emperor purveying the total anihilation of xenos, since that makes no goddamn sense, even from a purely utilitarian, strategic point of view.
Latter it devolved into a military junta and a highly militarized war machine in order to face the Horus insurrection and regain the losses that the death of the emperor produced. Then, it became a theocracy once the cult of the emperor become too much of a social force within the empire. And finally, it became an stagnant xenophobic empire.
The thing is, we really don't know if the xenophobia was a bug or a feature. I am pretty damn sure that no society could sustain centuries of foreign agression and total war without turning xenophobic to a degree. It is certainly quite puzzling to see the Emperor purveying the total anihilation of xenos, since that makes no goddamn sense, even from a purely utilitarian, strategic point of view.
Ah, the great question surrounding the Emperor's competence. You know this is heresy, right?
A quick primer on Chaos: the four will always have a vested interest in humanity, always trying to manipulate us for their great game. This is simply because we are easily manipulated and most of the other races do not interest them. The Eldar wised up to the idea of Chaos's nature after they made a Chaos god/goddess/thing, Orks care little but for the next battle, Tyranids threaten to consume all, Necrons aren't too interested in answering the call of any lovecraftian god considering what happened the last time, Tau don't even register to the gods, e.c.t. Humans are simply easy pawns, as such, we are the best pieces they have to combat each other. Taint is inevitable, it's just how you combat it. The Interex actually did a good job at fighting Chaos, and the four did not have much purchase within the Interex.
So why do I bring this up when I'm supposed to be talking about the Emperor? Because you got to remember, the Emperor was a man. Sure, the pinnacle of human evolution and a true first among equals, but still a man. And like all humans, he was capable of screwing up, just on a much larger scale, and your view that his incompetence is what caused everything to fall apart is grounded in fact. Ever heard of the Imperial Truth before the Eclisiarchy got their hands on it? It was instituted by the Emperor shortly after the Unification Wars but before the Great Crusade. In essence, the Truth stated that religion and superstition was the main source of humanity's conflicts, and as such, it was to be outlawed moving forward. This is obviously going to be a very contentious policy, but it was made by the Emperor for a reason. Remember that nothing in the current lore contradicts the old-school lore that says the Emperor is over 40,000 years old by this point, so he lived through several major religious conflicts and in some cases, founded his own religions (some lore implies that he was Jesus). His belief was that the act of worshiping a deity will inevitably feed the chaos gods, and if he banned all worship period, then he would be able to starve the chaos gods to the point where they would disappear, or at least weaken to the point where the effects of chaos (psykers, daemons, hostile warp) will go away.
This, of course, wouldn't work for multiple reasons. Firstly, Chaos is powered by emotions, so your mere act of being a soul-carrying individual with feelings powers the chaos gods (you heretic!). Banning outright worship of them won't stop chaos influence, though you may cut down on the number of daemonic incursions. In addition, people naturally don't react well to others telling them that their beliefs are false and must be cast aside, which obviously made some battles during the Great Crusade much harder than they needed to be. Finally, without an established god, people will look elsewhere, and more often than not, that was to chaos (whether overtly or covertly). An example would be Logar, the First Heretic. After being snubbed by the Emperor and Rowboat Girllyman for building one too many cathedrals for the Emperor (who Logar saw as being divine) Logar began a deep theological study with Kor Phaeron and Erubus, where they concluded that multiple worlds seemed to share the same gods (the big four) and what more sign of the truth of the gods do you need? Since not even the Primarchs were properly educated in the true nature of Chaos, meaning that they were easily manipulated by the four against the Emperor. Logar turned because he finally found his gods. Horus turned because the four manipulated him into believing that the Emperor, once the galaxy was secure, would proclaim himself a living god and lord over all (though carrying a chaos sword might have something to do with that). An easily avoidable position if the Emperor had simply said "Hey, I forbid worship because there are entities who would claim to be gods and they WILL screw you over if you listen to them." Then people might have stayed away from the four and actively resist their influence, like what happened in the Interex. That was their policy, and they were even able to keep their AI clean of chaos influence (which may have caused the Men of Iron rebellion all those years ago).
Given the suffering that Humanity went through during the Age of Strife, when the Xenos who were part of that initial civilization rose up and brutally suppressed/genocided the humans who had ruled (and were in no position to fight back after the rebellion of the Men of Iron), mankind had an understandable hatred of aliens. Plus, you know, Ork/Dark Eldar raids every other day. The policy regarding xenos has always been "If they are a threat, kill them, otherwise leave them be for now." The Imperium doesn't try to destroy Eldar Craftworlds because the last time they tried that, it took most of a Sector's military to inflict a narrow victory. The Imperium doesn't have that kind of power to throw away on a whim (despite their size). So if a group of xenos aren't a threat, then don't bother.
A quick primer on Chaos: the four will always have a vested interest in humanity, always trying to manipulate us for their great game. This is simply because we are easily manipulated and most of the other races do not interest them. The Eldar wised up to the idea of Chaos's nature after they made a Chaos god/goddess/thing, Orks care little but for the next battle, Tyranids threaten to consume all, Necrons aren't too interested in answering the call of any lovecraftian god considering what happened the last time, Tau don't even register to the gods, e.c.t. Humans are simply easy pawns, as such, we are the best pieces they have to combat each other. Taint is inevitable, it's just how you combat it. The Interex actually did a good job at fighting Chaos, and the four did not have much purchase within the Interex.
So why do I bring this up when I'm supposed to be talking about the Emperor? Because you got to remember, the Emperor was a man. Sure, the pinnacle of human evolution and a true first among equals, but still a man. And like all humans, he was capable of screwing up, just on a much larger scale, and your view that his incompetence is what caused everything to fall apart is grounded in fact. Ever heard of the Imperial Truth before the Eclisiarchy got their hands on it? It was instituted by the Emperor shortly after the Unification Wars but before the Great Crusade. In essence, the Truth stated that religion and superstition was the main source of humanity's conflicts, and as such, it was to be outlawed moving forward. This is obviously going to be a very contentious policy, but it was made by the Emperor for a reason. Remember that nothing in the current lore contradicts the old-school lore that says the Emperor is over 40,000 years old by this point, so he lived through several major religious conflicts and in some cases, founded his own religions (some lore implies that he was Jesus). His belief was that the act of worshiping a deity will inevitably feed the chaos gods, and if he banned all worship period, then he would be able to starve the chaos gods to the point where they would disappear, or at least weaken to the point where the effects of chaos (psykers, daemons, hostile warp) will go away.
This, of course, wouldn't work for multiple reasons. Firstly, Chaos is powered by emotions, so your mere act of being a soul-carrying individual with feelings powers the chaos gods (you heretic!). Banning outright worship of them won't stop chaos influence, though you may cut down on the number of daemonic incursions. In addition, people naturally don't react well to others telling them that their beliefs are false and must be cast aside, which obviously made some battles during the Great Crusade much harder than they needed to be. Finally, without an established god, people will look elsewhere, and more often than not, that was to chaos (whether overtly or covertly). An example would be Logar, the First Heretic. After being snubbed by the Emperor and Rowboat Girllyman for building one too many cathedrals for the Emperor (who Logar saw as being divine) Logar began a deep theological study with Kor Phaeron and Erubus, where they concluded that multiple worlds seemed to share the same gods (the big four) and what more sign of the truth of the gods do you need? Since not even the Primarchs were properly educated in the true nature of Chaos, meaning that they were easily manipulated by the four against the Emperor. Logar turned because he finally found his gods. Horus turned because the four manipulated him into believing that the Emperor, once the galaxy was secure, would proclaim himself a living god and lord over all (though carrying a chaos sword might have something to do with that). An easily avoidable position if the Emperor had simply said "Hey, I forbid worship because there are entities who would claim to be gods and they WILL screw you over if you listen to them." Then people might have stayed away from the four and actively resist their influence, like what happened in the Interex. That was their policy, and they were even able to keep their AI clean of chaos influence (which may have caused the Men of Iron rebellion all those years ago).
Given the suffering that Humanity went through during the Age of Strife, when the Xenos who were part of that initial civilization rose up and brutally suppressed/genocided the humans who had ruled (and were in no position to fight back after the rebellion of the Men of Iron), mankind had an understandable hatred of aliens. Plus, you know, Ork/Dark Eldar raids every other day. The policy regarding xenos has always been "If they are a threat, kill them, otherwise leave them be for now." The Imperium doesn't try to destroy Eldar Craftworlds because the last time they tried that, it took most of a Sector's military to inflict a narrow victory. The Imperium doesn't have that kind of power to throw away on a whim (despite their size). So if a group of xenos aren't a threat, then don't bother.
Erebus was the only one of that expedition that I KNOW was corrupted. The reason I pointed to it was because there's an argument among the Astartes as to what they should be doing.
Except the Imperium needed Astropaths for long range communication. The Emperor and his closest confidant were both immensly powerful psykers. Also, several of the Primarchs had abilities that were clearly Warp-derived, Sanguinius's and Kurze's precognition, Magnus's own psychic might, Corax's invisibility, and Vulkan's regeneration.
That is a setting thing. The warp is so prevelant, even the most Materialsit Empires can not ignore it.
Even the Necron (practically a AI ascension Empire) still fight the Chaos. Because it is in that setting.
I think Stellaris better represents the Age of Technology than it does the Age of Darkness that follows.
Would the Imperium in the 41st Millennium be an example of a empire that fell a second time?
The Golden Age of Technology seems to be when the Imperium was a normal empire.
Then it became a Fallen Empire during the Age of Strife/Men of Iron business.
Then it become Awakened when the Emperor reunifies mankind.
Then it falls again when he is put into the Golden Throne.
And now its still a Fallen Empire (a large one with huge portions of the galaxy under control, but fallen nonetheless)? Or it woke up again?
The Golden Age of Technology seems to be when the Imperium was a normal empire.
Then it became a Fallen Empire during the Age of Strife/Men of Iron business.
Then it become Awakened when the Emperor reunifies mankind.
Then it falls again when he is put into the Golden Throne.
And now its still a Fallen Empire (a large one with huge portions of the galaxy under control, but fallen nonetheless)? Or it woke up again?
nah 2 separate entities. 1st empire fell/had an endgame event or 3/50040000000 vassals go independent in a revolt. Then big E goes about liberating planets and crushing anything alien with his event spawned troops. Then the new shiny Imperium falls when Erebus ruins everything the big jobby.
Well, it would seem to me that Roboute Guilliam is about to wake the empire again... or more likely, cause a schism and a huge human civil war of Ultramarines VS The High lords of Terra just in time for the end of times.
Doesn't fit the bill . The Imperial Guard is conquering hundreds of planets. If you want to fit the Imperium of Man go with War in Heaven vs Necron vs Orcs + 2 End Game Crises + Minor Internal Wars + Tau.
Orcs are the Fallen Empire but they also produce new troops and "ships" - the Old Ones are dead and there is no one to guide them.
Orcs are not really a fallen empire, the only ones to really fit within the 41st millenium are the Eldar, Necrons (although they could mayby be considered an awakened fallen empire) or the imperium.
And how many is that in the big picture? The imperium of man contains over 1,000,000 setteled worlds:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Planets
"hundreds of planets" is not even close to 1 per thousand. So it is not even a relevant factor.
When people call the Ultramarines Smurfs and their Chapter Master this ^^^, I wonder why Games Workshop A: keeps trying to force them down everyone's throats and B: thinks people will actually take them seriously.
For maximum flavor you should start as a materialistic federation that ethos shifts into xenophobia and militarism after the robot rebellion. oh and you need to research gene warriors.