Imperial Russian institutions compared to Soviet - any holdovers?

Kupr

First Lieutenant
45 Badges
Aug 20, 2006
260
209
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Sengoku
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
You could only move to city if you got a job at factory or study at uni.

Or after serving in army or numerous other facts. 60 mln. people of new urban populaton till 1962. All urban population was more than rural one by the 1960s. This is my answer to your statement about "not having passports and thus unable to leave due to propiska".
It was honest deal between communist and rural population. While older generation hard worked on farms their young generation (chilren and grandchildren) received ability for new life in news cities and plants as elite of young state - Soviet men. Their children formed USSR and formed elite of state. As example, Gorbachev from south village and Yeltsyn from Tambovs village (family of repressed Kulak).

Getting job at factory was always a pretty corrupt process - because it often occured because of connections, especially if you were not entitled to it (like, say, a city dweller).

60 mln. people of corrupt process?



You could also volunteer to move to newly built cities. That is how often USSR built new towns in Central Asia and added new housing districts with international population in Ukraine, Belarus, Baltic states...

You mean new cities in all USSR parts?



I meant farmers, not factory workers. And your text doesn't apply to farmers.

Farmers as in kolhoz workers ofc, not kulaks.

Somebody had to work on land while young generation had chances for their choice.

For example, from my family grandfather was in village while all his sons and daughter moved in city.
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:

fr-rein

Bearded
35 Badges
Dec 29, 2014
1.948
3.160
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
Or after serving in army or numerous other facts. 60 mln. people of new urban populaton till 1962. All urban population was more than rural one by the 1960s. This is my answer to your statement about "not having passports and thus unable to leave due to propiska".
It was honest deal between communist and rural population. While older generation hard worked on farms their young generation (chilren and grandchildren) received ability for new life in news cities and plants as elite of young state - Soviet men. Their children formed USSR and formed elite of state. As example, Gorbachev from south village and Yeltsyn from Tambovs village (family of repressed Kulack.

Serfs also could stop being serfs after army... Of course, there were other ways but they often were jobs that weren't popular.

And you basically concede this fact yourself, just find a justification for it.

60 mln. people of corrupt process?

Not 60 millions. But lets be frank, there are many folk stories of people anecdotically getting the studentship or workplace due to some connections. Even formally it depended on your official characteristics by local party bureaucrat, school principal, army, etc.

You mean new cities in all USSR parts?

Of course. It's just not as evident when people start speaking Russian in Russia as opposed to other places.

Somebody had to work on land while young generation had chances for their choice.

For example, from my family grandfather left in village while all his sons and daughter moved in city.

Yes, and USSR killed agriculture and countryside. It even used school kids and students to work in kolhozes because of long-term mismanagement. Because in late USSR people didn't want to live in village.

Prostokvashyno is a good illustration of that - how the old village homes became either abandoned or a summer retreat for families. Killing local communities and economies, result of which ex-USSR can still feel.
 

pithorr

Retired Hippie
4 Badges
Mar 1, 2001
3.104
3.014
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
As I remember after social communist revolution in Russia all leading capitalistic states invaded with millitary forces in Russia or formed/supported capitalistic local government on lands of former Russian empire. So all responsibility on USSR or military interventionists?
There was not USSR yet TBH.
Blame on those who started the Revolution of course. And later continued it with the Red Terror included.
IMHO, Civil war in Russia was started by Chech Corp.
Hardly.
Bolshevik coup started it on the October night.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Kupr

First Lieutenant
45 Badges
Aug 20, 2006
260
209
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Sengoku
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
There was not USSR yet TBH.


You may call them communists of former soviet empire. Like Dzerginskiy (Polish communist founder of Cheka/OGPU/KGB) or Teodorovich I.A. (Polish communist, People's comissar of Food in 1917).


Blame on those who started the Revolution of course. And later continued it with the Red Terror included.

Red terror started with.... freeing general Krasnov from prison for promise do not fight against communists in future. Idealists at the begining...


Hardly.
Bolshevik coup started it on the October night.

After coup (Or Revolution) essential part of state recognized power of communists. Actually, Civil war started when armed Chesh Corps started to seize cities during way across Russia due demands to Antanta to be send on western front. In order to secure own way they formed local power in cities against central power. It was example, how to form local states and start of Civil war.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Kupr

First Lieutenant
45 Badges
Aug 20, 2006
260
209
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Sengoku
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
Serfs also could stop being serfs after army... Of course, there were other ways but they often were jobs that weren't popular.
And you basically concede this fact yourself, just find a justification for it.

I just noted that during such prohibition to left villages most part population was urban ones by 1962 year.


Not 60 millions. But lets be frank, there are many folk stories of people anecdotically getting the studentship or workplace due to some connections. Even formally it depended on your official characteristics by local party bureaucrat, school principal, army, etc.

I even read in memoirs these characterestics. Ussually it begins that man have - Worker peasant origin. It was main characteristic that man is part of our elite. Elite of state of workers and peasants.


Yes, and USSR killed agriculture and countryside. It even used school kids and students to work in kolhozes because of long-term mismanagement. Because in late USSR people didn't want to live in village.
Prostokvashyno is a good illustration of that - how the old village homes became either abandoned or a summer retreat for families. Killing local communities and economies, result of which ex-USSR can still feel.

IMHO, it is main problem of social/communism as I described here many times. When people are starting to live in wirkers's paradise they are loosing any incentives for self-development. Finally, system is looked like later USSR. That is why I read that socialism is not working.
 
Last edited:

pithorr

Retired Hippie
4 Badges
Mar 1, 2001
3.104
3.014
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
You may call them communists of former soviet empire. Like Dzerginskiy (Polish communist founder of Cheka/OGPU/KGB) or Teodorovich I.A. (Polish communist, People's comissar of Food in 1917).
Oh, all we know that the Revolution was made by the Poles, Latvians and Jews to destroy Mother Russia ;)
Red terror started with.... freeing general Krasnov from prison for promise do not fight against communists in future. Idealists at the begining...
Didn't he actually escape?
After coup (Or Revolution) essential part of state recognized power of communists. Actually, Civil war started when armed Chesh Corps started to seize cities during way across Russia due demands to Antanta to be send on western front. In order to secure own way they formed local power in cities against central power. It was example, how to form local states and start of Civil war.
One part of state recognized Bolshevik rules, the other did not. That's what is called the civil war.
AFAIK the Czech Legion did not want to participate in Russian domestic affairs but rather to be evacuated to France. Those were Bolsheviks who tried disarm them on their way to Vladivostok...
And it was long after Red Guard's antics.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

fr-rein

Bearded
35 Badges
Dec 29, 2014
1.948
3.160
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
I just noted that during such prohibition to left villages most part population was urban one by 1962 year.

It's similar to third world countries.
People don't want to leave in poor places. So they will always try to escape them. USSR made developing industrial areas their refuge basically and contributed to growing big cities.

Thing is, villages were overused as a resource for development, at the cost of abusing people there.

And as I said, make some of own citizens second-rate is kinda not communist.

I even read in memoirs these characterestics. Ussually it begins that man have - Worker peasant origin. It was main characteristic that man is part of our elite. Elite of state of workers and peasants.

I know that the peasants had lower salary, standard of living and access to goods.

And I am gonna be honest, most people can't relate to the bureaucratic elites success. Like Americans can't directly relate to success of Bill Clinton for example.

When people are starting to live in wirkers's paradise they are loosing any incentives for self-development.

Villages and kolhozes in USSR were pretty inefficient, bad and always had lower standards of living after 1930s. The escape of youth and marginalisation of village hit the countryside hard.

After coup (Or Revolution) essential part of state recognized power of communists. Actually, Civil war started when armed Chesh Corps started to seize cities during way across Russia due demands to Antanta to be send on western front. In order to secure own way they formed local power in cities against central power. It was example, how to form local states and start of Civil war.

I would say the real bloody war started after Brest-Litovsk and when army returned home, including Czechoslovaks. It gave arms and men for a war everywhere.

The Czechoslovak Legion incident, however, was one of the biggest fails of Bolsheviks who could have avoided it. Maybe then it wouldn't spark war near Urals.
 

Kupr

First Lieutenant
45 Badges
Aug 20, 2006
260
209
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Sengoku
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
Oh, all we know that the Revolution was made by the Poles, Latvians and Jews to destroy Mother Russia ;)

You know my relation to communism and Revolution. So regarding your statement I can only say thanks Poles, Latvians and Jews for Revolution that formed first state of workers and peasants.

Didn't he actually escape?

Yes, he moved to Russian south to organize fierce resistance to Soviet republic. Right after honest word to Reds. During WWII he served to Germany as "Hauptverwaltung der Kosakenheere":

Google translation of his slogan:

"I ask you to convey to all the Cossacks that this war is not against Russia, but against the communists, Jews and their henchmen who sell Russian blood. May God help German weapons and Hitler! Let them do what the Russians and Emperor Alexander I did for Prussia in 1813".

After WWII he was hanged by Reds. Evolution of Reds terror.
 
Last edited:

Kupr

First Lieutenant
45 Badges
Aug 20, 2006
260
209
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Sengoku
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
It's similar to third world countries.
People don't want to leave in poor places. So they will always try to escape them. USSR made developing industrial areas their refuge basically and contributed to growing big cities.

Thing is, villages were overused as a resource for development, at the cost of abusing people there.

And as I said, make some of own citizens second-rate is kinda not communist.


1. Communists had to do it. First ten years after civil war were paradise for peasants under rule of Reds. Btw, my grandfather was born in these years. But later....

Google translation
"Do you want our socialist fatherland to be beaten and to lose its independence? But if you do not want this, you must liquidate its backwardness in the shortest possible time and develop real Bolshevik rates in building its socialist economy. There are no other ways. That is why Lenin said on the eve of October: "Either death, or catch up and overtake the advanced capitalist countries."
We are 50-100 years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or they will crush us, " said Joseph Stalin at the first All-Union Conference of Socialist Industry Workers on February 4, 1931.

No other managment choice in history.

2. For me communistic theory died in period of start collectivization. Reading about holodomor I fastly recognized problems of 1932-1933 with problems of the end of USSR.
When everything started to be common and your salary didn't dependent from your work - system collapsed.
Only horror famine, later war, later recovery after war forced to work under constant pressure and common mobilization. When worker's paradise was formed everything collapsed again. System just could not live without mobilization and pressure. Not any reason for selfdevelopment of any man.

I know that the peasants had lower salary, standard of living and access to goods.
And I am gonna be honest, most people can't relate to the bureaucratic elites success. Like Americans can't directly relate to success of Bill Clinton for example.

But you and me are examples of development of USSR and forming new educated Soviet elite. Whitout USSR I suppose we worked now in the Ukrainian field with bad education like my grandfather and your grandmother....



Villages and kolhozes in USSR were pretty inefficient, bad and always had lower standards of living after 1930s. The escape of youth and marginalisation of village hit the countryside hard.

Like soviet system.
But regarding me I was born and lived in youth in ecxellent USSR's Sovkhoz around Moscow. As it was called - millionare. State invested in building of greenhouses and my mother worked there. All year round cucumbers and tomatoes were fresh in our flat (Later individual) home like bread. Workers could take home everything they produced. As best Sovkhoz Gorbachev was in our place and I saw him 3 meters from me when he was young and in power at the begining.

It is other example.

P.S. Before collapse of USSR Sovkhoz built modern cottages (Around 150-200 m2 and 8 ares of land) for best workers. Our mother as "production leader" was proposed to change two-room apartment for cottage. Father didn't want it, but mother persuaded him. It costs around 25 000 soviet rubles for long-term interest-free loan. Simple salary of one man was arpund 200 roubles per months. After collapse of USSR and it its economy we fastly paid all loans, because financial system collapsed.
 
Last edited:

Gurkhal

Lt. General
49 Badges
Mar 27, 2009
1.624
756
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Impire
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
I will get some pushback here, but I think that the Soviet Union was a worsening to the Russian Empire in the big picture and the long run. But it isn't to say that the Soviet Union didn't create anything good. We are talking about reality here and it tends to be shades of grey as opposed to black and white.

The reason as to why I thik it would have been better with continued Imperial Russia, in one way or another, comes from several parts.

1. Not being an international paria and ideologically at odds with most of the world has its benefits, such as French loans before the Great War.

2. More effecient oppression from the Communists, even while I will happily say that I think that there were great improvements such as getting rid of the antisemitic parts of the oppression.

3. Under the tsars, for all their faults and flaws, a duma was eventually create and steps towards democratic reform started to be made, hence why the Communists never wrestled power from the tsar but from the duma. Hence I see far more oppertunity for reform to make things for the better than with the Soviets in the long run.

4. Russia was industrializing before the revolution, hence all those workers that could support the communists, and growing enough for the Germans to freak out about Russia being unbeatable in 1917.
 

Herbert West

Field Marshal
On Probation
61 Badges
Jul 24, 2006
3.696
5.208
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH
  • Victoria 2
3. Under the tsars, for all their faults and flaws, a duma was eventually create and steps towards democratic reform started to be made, hence why the Communists never wrestled power from the tsar but from the duma. Hence I see far more oppertunity for reform to make things for the better than with the Soviets in the long run.

The Duma was established basically at gunpoint after the 1905 revolution as a concession to avoid further revolts. It was equally held at gunpoint by the Tasr, who meddled in it and dissolved it as fit. The Duma could have been used to democratise Russia, you just need someone else to be Tsar (and Nicolas II was still young-ish).
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Gurkhal

Lt. General
49 Badges
Mar 27, 2009
1.624
756
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Impire
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
The Duma was established basically at gunpoint after the 1905 revolution as a concession to avoid further revolts. It was equally held at gunpoint by the Tasr, who meddled in it and dissolved it as fit. The Duma could have been used to democratise Russia, you just need someone else to be Tsar (and Nicolas II was still young-ish).
Does it matter how or why the reform got through?

At the of the day, Russia got its duma and that's a major step forward. And please note that Nicholas II would not live forever. That the duma got a rocky start, well, that's what to be expected when introducing such reforms into a previously authocratic system. Things can take time to settle and that the duma could hang on for some twelve years despite the Tsar's aversion speaks to me that it wasn't a temporary inclusion into Russian politics either. That's a great point in favor of the Russian Empire in my eyes as I don't think that something similar was or would have been possible in the Soviet Union.
 

chepaeff

Absolutely heretical
5 Badges
Aug 9, 2009
1.186
2.691
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings III
  • 500k Club
Lots of hot takes in this thread.

But its basically like this:
Imperial Russian institutions were competent, Soviet ones were straight up retarded.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Zaleukos

Evöl högerhök
15 Badges
Aug 11, 2001
591
255
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
Lots of hot takes in this thread.

But its basically like this:
Imperial Russian institutions were competent, Soviet ones were straight up retarded.
I don't think anyone has argued that late Romanov institutions were competent in any way. What has been argued is that Imperial Russian institutions, partly due to their incompetence, partly due to technological constraints, were less brutal and heavy handed compared to the Soviet successors.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

chepaeff

Absolutely heretical
5 Badges
Aug 9, 2009
1.186
2.691
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings III
  • 500k Club
Education was far better in USSR though.
Was it? Bolsheviks destroyed imperial system and started coming up with amazing innovations like "bulk exam" in higher education. And in the end they had to return to ersatz version of pre-revolutionary system. Even elementary schooling was ruined and returned to pre-war numbers only in late 20s. Lets not even mention mass persecution of former people, crippling and setting education system way back.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

fr-rein

Bearded
35 Badges
Dec 29, 2014
1.948
3.160
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
Was it? Bolsheviks destroyed imperial system and started coming up with amazing innovations like "bulk exam" in higher education. And in the end they had to return to ersatz version of pre-revolutionary system. Even elementary schooling was ruined and returned to pre-war numbers only in late 20s. Lets not even mention mass persecution of former people, crippling and setting education system way back.

Execution was flawed, but it did arrive to a much better system in the end under much more stressful circumstances.

Imperial system had a lot of time to do all the mistakes it wanted and still come off better... it just didn't want to get better nor was designed to. Until very late days Tsarist regime saw education and universities as enemies and an opposition breeding ground. This was a principle obstacle for the development of the Russian Empire.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

bz249

Lt. General
29 Badges
Oct 20, 2008
1.593
170
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
Until very late days Tsarist regime saw education and universities as enemies and an opposition breeding ground. This was a principle obstacle for the development of the Russian Empire.

And they were highly likely right on that aspect. Educated people without proper career chance are dangerous.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

chepaeff

Absolutely heretical
5 Badges
Aug 9, 2009
1.186
2.691
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings III
  • 500k Club
Until very late days Tsarist regime saw education and universities as enemies and an opposition breeding ground. This was a principle obstacle for the development of the Russian Empire.
Why are you retelling dusty soviet textbooks from 1930s? Education expenditure kept rising, number of students rising (more university students than in Germany in 1914), SURPRISINGLY without mass murder and comrades with revolvers.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

fr-rein

Bearded
35 Badges
Dec 29, 2014
1.948
3.160
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
Education expenditure kept rising, number of students rising (more university students than in Germany in 1914), SURPRISINGLY without mass murder and comrades with revolvers.

And yet state kept treating student liberty as an enemy.

Russian Empire could achieve it all. But one must understand how bad were some of it's inner workings, checks and balances that led to situation of 1917. Unless it would become a fascist dictatorship it wouldn't do it, although admittedly I believe it leaned to that as ideals of bunch of White Army people showed - and I don't mean later collaboration with Nazis or such, they had ideals similar to the fascists in Italy, Romania, Spain, etc. Which would not be only a but better than Stalinism.

And the fact that Russian Empire didn't educate people and kept society a lot ignorant is why it ended up very brutally wartorn and then repressed unlike say Austro-Hungary.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions: