Imperial Russian institutions compared to Soviet - any holdovers?

grandsteed

Les catholiques de la contre-réforme
Aug 15, 2019
31
36
63
I recently got in a brief discussion about the history of Russian government in which I was arguing that old Tsarist Russia and Soviet Union cannot be considered the same regime or an evolution. To me, (not having read much about the early Soviet years since the 80s when there was a strong anti-Soviet tilt here) it seems like the Soviets largely tore down the institutions of the old regime and replaced them. After this, I really wonder if there were any institutions that carried on practically untouched by the Revolution, and if they're enough to consider the two orders related at all in the rule of government.
 

Abdul Goatherd

Premature anti-fascist
Aug 2, 2003
3.305
4.023
Well, there is a reason they call it the Russian Revolution, and not the Russian Evolution.
 
  • 1Haha
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Jopa79

Colonel
45 Badges
Aug 14, 2016
1.046
597
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
After this, I really wonder if there were any institutions that carried on practically untouched by the Revolution, and if they're enough to consider the two orders related at all in the rule of government.

I’m more precisely speaking about the rule of the government. I would say, the both, the Tsarist rule as well as the rule of the early Soviet Communist Party were basing on the same management style, the authoritarianism. Political plurality was rejected by the both administrations, neither there was democratic voting.

I often use to think, about the common Russian people opposing the Tsarist rule and joining the revolution for instance desiring better standards of living, but instead ending in a much worse situation because of the Communist Party.
 

LizarDAMN

Sergeant
33 Badges
Mar 19, 2012
81
31
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome
I’m more precisely speaking about the rule of the government. I would say, the both, the Tsarist rule as well as the rule of the early Soviet Communist Party were basing on the same management style, the authoritarianism. Political plurality was rejected by the both administrations, neither there was democratic voting.

I often use to think, about the common Russian people opposing the Tsarist rule and joining the revolution for instance desiring better standards of living, but instead ending in a much worse situation because of the Communist Party.
Wait, you actually think Tsarist rule was better for the common people?
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Jopa79

Colonel
45 Badges
Aug 14, 2016
1.046
597
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
Wait, you actually think Tsarist rule was better for the common people?

No, I, do not think so. Rather I think, if the purpose of the Russian revolution was to make people more equal, it really didn’t happen so.

Edit: And it’s really sad, the common people whom thought the Revolution would change the things…all their effort was for nothing more, but to face similarities of the Tsarist rule again, this time under the Bolshevik rule, ending to the Great Purge.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:

Yakman

City of Washington, District of Columbia
26 Badges
Jan 5, 2004
6.266
6.108
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • For The Glory
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • 500k Club
For those millions which lost their lives during the Revolution and after, it was surely much better.

“THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.”


― Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court
 
  • 3Like
  • 2Love
  • 1
Reactions:

Lord Tim

Major
62 Badges
May 11, 2006
501
67
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Knights of Honor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars Pre-Order
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
No, I, do not think so. Rather I think, if the purpose of the Russian revolution was to make people more equal, it really didn’t happen so.

Edit: And it’s really sad, the common people whom thought the Revolution would change the things…all their effort was for nothing more, but to face similarities of the Tsarist rule again, this time under the Bolshevik rule, ending to the Great Purge.

I mean, the literacy rate under communist rule increased massively compared to under the Tsarist regime, health improved with a large increase in life expectancy, birth rates rose, women got significantly more rights, and plenty of other things happened that improved life for the majority of the population. Compared to Tsarist rule, it was a big improvement. And before people start talking about the purges, the Ukraine famine, the deportation of ethnic groups - those things happened under Tsarist rule too.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

LizarDAMN

Sergeant
33 Badges
Mar 19, 2012
81
31
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome
Yeah, this was my thinking as well. It's really hard to see how Revolution didn't make people more equal. I mean there was still repression and party elite were new nobility, but still there were massive improvements like housing etc.
 
  • 4
Reactions:

Jopa79

Colonel
45 Badges
Aug 14, 2016
1.046
597
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
I mean, the literacy rate under communist rule increased massively compared to under the Tsarist regime, health improved with a large increase in life expectancy, birth rates rose, women got significantly more rights, and plenty of other things happened that improved life for the majority of the population. Compared to Tsarist rule, it was a big improvement. And before people start talking about the purges, the Ukraine famine, the deportation of ethnic groups - those things happened under Tsarist rule too.

You're a British, eh?
 

Jopa79

Colonel
45 Badges
Aug 14, 2016
1.046
597
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II

“THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.”


Said by whom?

Edit: Oh, Mark Twain it was.
 
Last edited:

Victor1234

Ezredes
10 Badges
Jan 3, 2004
1.385
404
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
In answer to the OP, at least one enduring institution seems to have been the secret police.

Okhrana to Cheka and so on. Not only carried on, but greatly expanded and made much more efficient....

I've always found it ironic that Stalin himself escaped internal exile from Siberia multiple times despite having a long criminal record, including kidnapping children for ransom, extortion, robbery of banks and post, murder, etc.

Trotsky also escaped his Tsarist exile in Siberia.

I'm not sure of the statistics, but the impression one gets is that not many people escaped internal exile in Siberia (or anywhere else for that matter) under the Soviets.

Edit: I would also add the zemstvo (local councils). It's not hard to draw parallels between it as an institution and the later soviets. Both also shared the same fate of becoming essentially powerless in the face of central authority....
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

bz249

Lt. General
29 Badges
Oct 20, 2008
1.593
170
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
I mean, the literacy rate under communist rule increased massively compared to under the Tsarist regime, health improved with a large increase in life expectancy, birth rates rose, women got significantly more rights, and plenty of other things happened that improved life for the majority of the population. Compared to Tsarist rule, it was a big improvement. And before people start talking about the purges, the Ukraine famine, the deportation of ethnic groups - those things happened under Tsarist rule too.

And they built railroad in India... sorry another topic.
Those thing would have happened anyway*, because it was the Zeitgeist. Ok due to need to read propaganda literacy rate increased a bit faster.

*signature of my great-great grandfather by the birth of his first child in 1894 was +++ in 1898 for the second was his name... you can't have illiterate factory workers because it is unproductive/dangerous
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Abdul Goatherd

Premature anti-fascist
Aug 2, 2003
3.305
4.023
And they built railroad in India... sorry another topic.
Those thing would have happened anyway*, because it was the Zeitgeist. Ok due to need to read propaganda literacy rate increased a bit faster.

*signature of my great-great grandfather by the birth of his first child in 1894 was +++ in 1898 for the second was his name... you can't have illiterate factory workers because it is unproductive/dangerous

Perhaps. Or perhaps not.

Tsarist Russia was a gigantic Third World mess of a country - huge, poor, stagnant, overpopulated, agrarian, commodity-dependent, technologically backwards, and highly unequal, held in the grip of a grasping Tsarist aristocratic elite that liked it that way. It was never going to industrialize. Even energetic and enlightened Tsarist regimes were not likely to produce miracles. At best, it's 20th Century trajectory would be akin to, say, Brazil or India.

That ruling elite had to be broken and overthrown, for Russians to have a chance. That it took the Soviets heaps of buckets of blood to put the economy on a different industrializing track should tell you quite a bit about the challenge that it was.

By the way, ex-Soviet countries (including all the -stans) still have the highest literacy rates in the world.
 
Last edited:
  • 3
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Jopa79

Colonel
45 Badges
Aug 14, 2016
1.046
597
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
Although in case of Finland and the Baltics the reason was the previous Swedish management, something that @Jopa79 would be keen to enlighten us.

I'm not sure, what are you proposing exactly, but if you wish, please share and focus your idea?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

loup99

Godogost of Armorica
78 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
16.552
5.907
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
I often use to think, about the common Russian people opposing the Tsarist rule and joining the revolution for instance desiring better standards of living, but instead ending in a much worse situation because of the Communist Party.
For those millions which lost their lives during the Revolution and after, it was surely much better.
The fact that in blind hostility towards the Russian Revolution some end up excusing the Tsarist regime, tells us much more about your own ideological persuasion than about the Revolution itself and the social progress brought by the Soviets to Russia. You can criticise the nomenklatura and gerontocracy, let alone the totalitarian abuses of Stalin, without upholding a regime as brutal and devastating as the one of the Romanov tsars. Furthermore, the problem of this reasoning is that you fail to see the successive ruptures and evolutions under Soviet rule. Seeing Stalin's dictature as already present in 1917 can only be described as teleology. No, the October Revolution was a major rupture, one which benefitted millions of Russians and in fact by snowball effect workers across the world. The struggle for spreading this revolution across borders was halted by reactionaries, but who knows what further progress humanity could have succeeded with if Germany, Italy and France had also seen successful revolutions? If it had been the Biennio rosso which succeeded rather than march on Rome? What we do know is the bloodshed that resulted from the catastrophic intervention of the Entente powers against the Soviets, so many lives which could have been spared.

To adress the original question directly, I would perhaps say that it is when attempting to canalise and control the worker council's that the Soviets reaffirmed some Tsarist methods.
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Jopa79

Colonel
45 Badges
Aug 14, 2016
1.046
597
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
The fact that in blind hostility towards the Russian Revolution some end up excusing the Tsarist regime, tells us much more about your own ideological persuasion than about the Revolution itself and the social progress brought by the Soviets to Russia. You can criticise the nomenklatura and gerontocracy, let alone the totalitarian abuses of Stalin, without upholding a regime as brutal and devastating as the one of the Romanov tsars. Furthermore, the problem of this reasoning is that you fail to see the successive ruptures and evolutions under Soviet rule. Seeing Stalin's dictature as already present in 1917 can only be described as teleology. No, the October Revolution was a major rupture, one which benefitted millions of Russians and in fact by snowball effect workers across the world. The struggle for spreading this revolution across borders was halted by reactionaries, but who knows what further progress humanity could have succeeded with if Germany, Italy and France had also seen successful revolutions? If it had been the Biennio rosso which succeeded rather than march on Rome? What we do know is the bloodshed that resulted from the catastrophic intervention of the Entente powers against the Soviets, so many lives which could have been spared. I would perhaps say that it is when attempting to canalise and control the worker council's that the Soviets reaffirmed some Tsarist methods.

Your country should be neighboring country with the early Soviet Union. Then you can tell us again, how are your feelings.
 
  • 5
Reactions:

Zaleukos

Evöl högerhök
15 Badges
Aug 11, 2001
591
255
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
There is as far as I can tell very little institutional continuity. Czarist Russia was a mess and just awful in so many ways. By nature of geography the Soviets inherited certain imperial ambitions, but that is a different type of continuity. Had the revolutions spread we might have seen a number of Soviet vassal states (which is what was created when revolution succeeded outside Russia proper).

The fact that in blind hostility towards the Russian Revolution some end up excusing the Tsarist regime, tells us much more about your own ideological persuasion than about the Revolution itself and the social progress brought by the Soviets to Russia. You can criticise the nomenklatura and gerontocracy, let alone the totalitarian abuses of Stalin, without upholding a regime as brutal and devastating as the one of the Romanov tsars. Furthermore, the problem of this reasoning is that you fail to see the successive ruptures and evolutions under Soviet rule. Seeing Stalin's dictature as already present in 1917 can only be described as teleology. No, the October Revolution was a major rupture, one which benefitted millions of Russians and in fact by snowball effect workers across the world. The struggle for spreading this revolution across borders was halted by reactionaries, but who knows what further progress humanity could have succeeded with if Germany, Italy and France had also seen successful revolutions? If it had been the Biennio rosso which succeeded rather than march on Rome? What we do know is the bloodshed that resulted from the catastrophic intervention of the Entente powers against the Soviets, so many lives which could have been spared.

To adress the original question directly, I would perhaps say that it is when attempting to canalise and control the worker council's that the Soviets reaffirmed some Tsarist methods.

Imperial Russia was a disaster of a society, but the ineptitude also meant that it was less brutal than the more efficient USSR. The heavy handed methods employed by the communists improved many metrics for the population (literacy etc) but the human cost was at times horrific. And the planned economy caused problems both short- (shortages, general failure to meet demands and famines) and long term (stagnation and lack of innovation).

Western Europe is fortunate that reformists rather than revolutionaries won out on the left side of the political spectrum. The revolutionary vanguard parties created prison states whenever they got the chance.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:

Gerle

Gunnery Sergeant, USMC (Ret.) From Sweden/USA
32 Badges
Sep 12, 2001
320
4.243
  • 200k Club
  • Semper Fi
Yeah, this was my thinking as well. It's really hard to see how Revolution didn't make people more equal. I mean there was still repression and party elite were new nobility, but still there were massive improvements like housing etc.
An improvement in housing doesn't automatically make people more equal. That's not to say that people's situation didn't improve in many ways post-Revolution.