Imperial Reform "Revoke The Privilegia" shall be weakened

[DragonWhite]

After the imperial reform "Revoke the Privilegia", (it is practical that the emperor can make all members approve),all memebers in HRE become vassals of the emperor. And then player emperor will release as much as possible vassals in HRE. In this way, HRE become so horrible, the emperor can start a war freewheelingly and wait for victory.

The Liberty Desire is so low that no one in HRE want to be free. It's not logical that a spilt HRE is far stronger than an integrated HRE. In my opinion, the Imperial Reform "Revoke The Privilegia" should be weaken. Maybe there is a solution like this: after the reform, all members in HRE become Tributary of the emperor, that they have only economic obligation and no military obligation.

 

[deathbypie]

But it is pretty much the only good thing about passing reforms..

 

[Vincentst]

And it is a good reward for keeping up with all the previous religionproblems.

 

[Sfan]

What would be the point of going through the insanely tedious process of reforming then?

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

Well done, you pointed the only good stuff about the HRE (as emperor) out. In the end the HRE is still in a bad and tedious state.... like a lot things in Europe atm.

 

[Zohtun]

So you suffer through the horrible messy slog that is the HRE and you finally get to the prize at the end and you want to take that away?

Shame on you.

 

[hitchens]

But getting the vassal sworm is the only fun part about being emperor.

 

[Twoflower]

The problem with revoking the privilegia in the current implementation is:
1. it is much too easy. Win the religious war - as a catholic emperor or as any reasonably strong protestant country neighbouring the HRE, become Emperor (I've had games as Protestant Poland and Denmark where I did not want to be emperor, but was elected anyway after the religious war), add all your non-HRE stuff to the empire, convert everybody to your religion, wait for the uptick, profit. It is not particularly difficult, it is not fun and it is not in anyway about managing the HRE well (which should be what you actually have to do to get the princes to accept the reforms).
2. unifying the HRE should be about unifying the HRE, i.e. getting to the last reform. It should not be about getting an invincible, loyal vassal swarm that you can then use for vassal feeding before getting free integration by the last reform, i.e. perhaps the most powerful tool for world conquest.

There is in fact a thread in the suggestion forum where the OP makes great suggestions on how to improve this:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/improving-the-hre.1054556/

 

[Olterin]

I would instead advocate for giving a united HRE a unique government and national ideas, so that the united HRE is closer in power (and flavor) to the vassal swarm version of itself. Then we can talk about weakening the swarm version, because it would stop being the grand prize of passing the reforms.

 

[Twoflower]

I would instead advocate for giving a united HRE a unique government and national ideas, so that the united HRE is closer in power (and flavor) to the vassal swarm version of itself. Then we can talk about weakening the swarm version, because it would stop being the grand prize of passing the reforms.

The thing is that a united HRE, i.e. a country covering all of Germany, Burgundy, Bohemia and Italy is already an incredibly powerful country. Being able to do that without any monarch points or revolts is quite a prize already, and enough of an accomplishment for a successful EU4 game.

 

[Olterin]

The thing is that a united HRE, i.e. a country covering all of Germany, Burgundy, Bohemia and Italy is already an incredibly powerful country. Being able to do that without any monarch points or revolts is quite a prize already, and enough of an accomplishment for a successful EU4 game.

Without a doubt, I agree. What I do not like is the massive drop in powerlevel between the vassal swarm, and the actually united HRE. There's also the part where it gets silly that you can form Prussia (as Austria) and then pass the last reform. It *should* be harder to unite the HRE than it currently is (or was, as of 1.22).

 

[DragonWhite]

But it is pretty much the only good thing about passing reforms..

I think the goal of passing reforms should be unite the HRE like the last reform do, instead of making use of vassal-swarm.

 

[DragonWhite]

What would be the point of going through the insanely tedious process of reforming then?

Passing reforms is a really difficult progress, and there is no need to devote yourself into it if you're not playing as a HRE member. You can dismiss it instead.

 

[DragonWhite]

But getting the vassal sworm is the only fun part about being emperor.

I think an integrated HRE is a considerable reward for the emperor to pass all reforms.

 

[DragonWhite]

The problem with revoking the privilegia in the current implementation is:
1. it is much too easy. Win the religious war - as a catholic emperor or as any reasonably strong protestant country neighbouring the HRE, become Emperor (I've had games as Protestant Poland and Denmark where I did not want to be emperor, but was elected anyway after the religious war), add all your non-HRE stuff to the empire, convert everybody to your religion, wait for the uptick, profit. It is not particularly difficult, it is not fun and it is not in anyway about managing the HRE well (which should be what you actually have to do to get the princes to accept the reforms).
2. unifying the HRE should be about unifying the HRE, i.e. getting to the last reform. It should not be about getting an invincible, loyal vassal swarm that you can then use for vassal feeding before getting free integration by the last reform, i.e. perhaps the most powerful tool for world conquest.

There is in fact a thread in the suggestion forum where the OP makes great suggestions on how to improve this:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/improving-the-hre.1054556/

Thank you for your recommendation. That thread makes great suggestions.
My original intention to post this thread is that, I have seen too many people play as a non-HRE state, or even a non-Christian state, such as Ottomans, converting to Catholic, struggling to be emperor, passing reforms, and making use of vassal-swarm to conquer the world. Logically I think it is a ridiculous way to conquer the world and it should be modified.

 

[KlinkerFyren]

I disagree. I do think that vassal swarm HRE is pretty dumb. However I do not think it should be nerfed necessarily. But maybe tweaked? Like how the Shogun in Japan has his own special type of vassals with special rules.
So that a hypothetical HRE vassal will not aid their overlord if the overlord is the attacker in a war. But will defend them if they are a defender in a war.
Maybe also give the restore Holy Roman Empire its own OP ideas to give the player an extra reward/incentive for forming them.

 

[DragonWhite]

I disagree. I do think that vassal swarm HRE is pretty dumb. However I do not think it should be nerfed necessarily. But maybe tweaked? Like how the Shogun in Japan has his own special type of vassals with special rules.
So that a hypothetical HRE vassal will not aid their overlord if the overlord is the attacker in a war. But will defend them if they are a defender in a war.
Maybe also give the restore Holy Roman Empire its own OP ideas to give the player an extra reward/incentive for forming them.

Yeah. A shogun-style reformed HRE is also a good and feasible adjust.

 

[Bebou]

As people have said before, getting the vassal swarm is one of the main reasons people will even go thorough the process of doing the reforms. The only reason I would ever imagine people integrating vassals earlier is if, as one of the previous posters said, the HRE (state) received its own unique set of ideas which are OP AF. Even then if someone is going for a WC it is unlikely they will want to lose the vassal swarm because it makes it far too easy to expand.

In addition, the primary candidate for revoking, Austria, got uber nerfed this patch so it made the process harder than it used to be. Their starting army is nothing short of a joke given what they are meant to accomplish.

 

[makaramus]

maybe instead:
1)remove that choose and instead make player pick last decision instantly
2)Give HRE permant claim all over Roman empire(yes...old roman empire). They are not same but still calling themselves roman empire after all.
3)Decision also devolps all provinces in hre 1 or 2 too (wich is huge when you think there is a lot in hre)

what I find broken is you can simply give provinces to your vassals and annex them free later wich means %100 core cost O_O

 

[DragonWhite]

maybe instead:
1)remove that choose and instead make player pick last decision instantly
2)Give HRE permant claim all over Roman empire(yes...old roman empire). They are not same but still calling themselves roman empire after all.
3)Decision also devolps all provinces in hre 1 or 2 too (wich is huge when you think there is a lot in hre)

what I find broken is you can simply give provinces to your vassals and annex them free later wich means %100 core cost O_O

Removing that reform is another feasible way.