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ladner

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As the subject implies what are recommended strategies to play as Imperial Japan? I have become burned out from playing German Reich and wanted to try something different. Thus far I really like how the Imperial Japanese decision tree makes the faction “fit”. The cruiser decisions and the long lance torpedoes are nice touches. Of course I have not progressed far enough to know if it makes a meaningful difference or is just flavor. From glancing at r/HOI4 it seems the coastal defense design team is the way to go. My only disagreement is that the battle fleet and first air fleet decision are mutually exclusive, in reality they were not.
 
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ladner

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Found myself completely lost regarding air craft carriers.

Had read strategy about naval invading the major coastal areas with high industrial concentration and using CV CAS to support. Does anyone have any recommendations on how you would do this?
 

Voigt

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I normally use Tac1 (the 1936 ones, not the interwar) and LSPARTY2 as Japan to break trough China and having fun. I also have like 2~4 marine divsions which i use to land on Shandong, and then 6~8 regular infantry landing around my target port to support the invasion from multiple sides.

I rarely use the CV CAS from my carriers.
 

HugsAndSnuggles

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Found myself completely lost regarding air craft carriers.

Had read strategy about naval invading the major coastal areas with high industrial concentration and using CV CAS to support. Does anyone have any recommendations on how you would do this?
By manually moving them in position and using them as a mobile airfield? While setting them on naval invasion support saves you some micro: provided there are no naval invasions being planned (in which case they will sit in the port waiting to escort it), the task force will support all the coastal battles in their operational area (by evenly splitting), it will also burn as much fuel as sending all those heavy ships on patrol or exercise.

Also, kind of pointless with vanilla AI: it makes establishing beachheads trivial.
 

ladner

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By manually moving them in position and using them as a mobile airfield? While setting them on naval invasion support saves you some micro: provided there are no naval invasions being planned (in which case they will sit in the port waiting to escort it), the task force will support all the coastal battles in their operational area (by evenly splitting), it will also burn as much fuel as sending all those heavy ships on patrol or exercise.

Also, kind of pointless with vanilla AI: it makes establishing beachheads trivial.
Having tried three times now, it easy to establish a beachhead, expanding the beachhead and moving inland, is a whole different story however.
 

ladner

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I am beginning to find that the starting division templates are really bad, now I understand they are historical, so I suppose my advocacy of wanting "historical' templates is on poor footing. In truth I'd really just like to see division that have historic equipment, balanced and combined arms, so infantry, artillery, AA, AT and so on that will fit into the width system without the malus/penalties due to the width mechanic. But I digress.

So what to do as a Japan beginner?

Typically I do the Army focus first in order to have enough land experience to adjust the templates. Typically I have added a recon tank company, to get the benefit against the nationalist Chinese lack of AT, and support artillery.

WIth such a small industrial base it doesn't seem feasible to support a mechanized/motorized army (in the sense of large tank formations). Of course there are a whole host of problems, lack of speed to encircle, perhaps this is what the cavalry formations should be for, maybe add armored cars?

Economically I have been enacting the decision "Steel for Guns" the sad state of the Imperial Japanese economy almost makes this mandatory. I have been going down the historical tree after the Army focus, but with an emphasis on focuses that add factories. Have been primarily building CIVs in the high infrastructure provinces, with an eye towards the eventual war in the Pacific. Have opted for concentrated industry, is this a mistake?
 
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HugsAndSnuggles

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Having tried three times now, it easy to establish a beachhead, expanding the beachhead and moving inland, is a whole different story however.
Limited range of carrier CAS can't really help with that, I think. At least, always seemed like way too much micro. Not to mention that you'd either have to use CAS on carriers at all times (which is suboptimal) or deal with "airwing without orders" popup because carrier NAVs are sitting idle for the time being.

So what to do as a Japan beginner?
IDK about beginners, but I always did put 5 factories on tanks, and one on SPG conversion to make 3 of these (out of initial "mixed brigades"):
20200726230558_1.jpg
(been experimenting with making enough artillery for 7/2+1s, so factories came a little late)
Armour always seemed essential for quick conquest, so I doubt I'll ever try without... unless, of course, someone managed to set a record using horde of infantry or whatever - something I have no knowledge of.

As for development, while suboptimal, I prefer to go for naval focus and dockyard decision first (to "start" with same NIC as US), then go for economic development, and for Marco Polo to start war on July '37. This leaves me with enough time to build one level of infrastructure and one dockyard (to supply initial army), 4 levels of airfields (for initial airforce and, possibly, some volunteers), 5-6 MIC in Dalian, level 5 agency and prepare a couple collaboration missions. Seeing how I'm usually done with the war within a year (no, not by surrendering :p), it's not a horribly wrong approach.

Still, going for gun decision instead, and feeding China to Manchukuo (not bothering with agency) will free up a lot of CIC for potential military buildup, giving you easier time in China.
 
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bitmode

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Limited range of carrier CAS can't really help with that, I think. At least, always seemed like way too much micro.
Patch 1.9.3 had this change: "- Carrier planes no longer take area coverage penalties on their targeted/ground missions"
With this added inconsistency carrier CAS could now be better than land CAS if attaining full coverage is difficult.
Not to mention that you'd either have to use CAS on carriers at all times (which is suboptimal) or deal with "airwing without orders" popup because carrier NAVs are sitting idle for the time being.
While only fighting China it is not suboptimal. And you can just disband the wings later on or give them a land-based order.
 
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ladner

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I have found the naval aspects of the game, in a word lacking...

Fighting in China is without a doubt the single most frustrating aspect of this game. The Marco Polo bridge malus is just plain lazy programming, probably because a bunch of China fan bois, not sure what the equivalent of a Wehraboo is for Nationalist China. That theatre is not one I am well read in, but basically the Imperial Japanese Army was able to move more or less uncontested from what I have read. Limiting factors being logistics.

The endless waves of infantry, that suddenly get better and better equipped is frankly BS. Anyhow rant over.
 
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I'll give you my strat to easily defeat China with Japan (in SP historical with expert AI)
You want to start the war asap, so you'll not face united China and can pick chinese nations one by one.

pre war build up :
Focus, just rush marcopolo incident. While doing so you will build civ industry in your province with high infrastructure so you don't lose very much not going to war economy.
With Japan, you just have 3 oil. Your industry is very weak so you don't want to import anything. The good point is that your oil reserves are full. That's enough to defeat China. Save your oil (just train your fighters) and don't build anything like new planes, tanks, mot, that use fuel. So your MIC should be use to build infantry & support equipment, and artillery.
PP : save 150+ for silent workhorse, then one army decision (that one give you 4 new military factories)
require from puppets all their divisions. Train all your army (one of your garrison is green, disband it). Switch all motorized/tank/marines to infantry template, saving back your trucks and light tanks. Those will be very helpful later.
You should aim for 72 division (3 armies of 24), you'll not have enough equipment to raise more.

pre war deployment.
You'll initially attack Shanxi alone. Deploy 7 infantry divisions in Front of Beijing. 4 more will be use to naval invade from Philippina the second southest city of nationalist China (that one is surrounded with mountains). Every other infantry divisions (10 at least) and your cavalry should be deploy facing Shanxi, one group ready to rush it's capital through forest, another to go as east as possible through desert. Bolster your naval invasion with 6 more garrison divisions, fill any gap on the border with garrison but be very careful to not exceed supply limit. Finally, use your TAC bomber to get air superiority over Shanxi.

War with Shanxi :
When Marco polo bridge focus is completed, declare war to Shanxi. with pp, escalate war in China as often as possible, and improve workers condition asap. You should meet very little resistance but you'll have to occup all the country before they surrender. When they give up, strat redeploy everything in South Shanxi (just left a frontline filled with a few garrison ofc along shanxi border) and drawn orders to breakthrough then march along the river until your reach the coast. Doing so will allow you to encircle half of the Chinese army.

As soon as you have xp you can tweak your infantry template with support artillery. Then duplicate it and replace reco company by a tank reco company : that will give you very little armor, but that's enough against China WW1 equipment to get the armor bonus (which make them 4 times more effective). You have enough light tanks for 15 divisions (I recommand to spare a few tanks, so 14 divisions). Be very careful to never use those divisions in moutains or mud, because you have very few spare tanks.

War with nationalist China :
Start war against nationalist China. Attack Beijing, now little defended by overstretched Chinese army while your main force breakthrough from southern Shanxi.
Your naval invasion in south just aim to attract some troops, especially soviet volunteers. You should quickly assaut the port (with naval fire support, don't forget that), then just advance a bit on the mountain around and stay.
After pocketing such a big part of the Chinese army, it should be very easy to make more encirclements.

Ending the war, annexing/puppeting whole China :
If you're successful, you'll need to stop yourself, waiting for China to complete the united front focus. If you don't, you'll get the peace conference just with nationalist China and Shanxi. When China has created united front, it will drag every other Chinese nations in war. You must get at least a frontline with each of them so you can annex/puppet them during the peace conference. Once you're sure to get them, finish nationalist China.
 
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GhostsofWar

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I am also wondering how to handle Imperial Japan, I have about 1,000 hours in HoI 4 already, but I still can't seem to get a handle on the best way to deal with China. I am doing Ironman mode, with historical focuses on, and it just seems like every time I try to rush the Marco Polo Focus, shortly there after the United Front forms and low and behold 60+ division just in the area around Beijing alone.

I just feel like I don't know what focuses to get, how to build my economy, or even make proper use of the PP, like should I focus on filling out my Chiefs of Staff and Military High Command first, knowing I am going to war or should I focus it on stuff like Theorist and trying to boost say Silent Workhorse or War Industrialist? Same thing with my Armies, is it better to just keep it pure infantry and add in support companies, or go for a standard 7/2 with support?
 

HugsAndSnuggles

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Patch 1.9.3 had this change: "- Carrier planes no longer take area coverage penalties on their targeted/ground missions"
With this added inconsistency carrier CAS could now be better than land CAS if attaining full coverage is difficult.
My main point is that their range still leaves a lot to be desired. At least, they are usable now: having both tiny range and mission efficiency penalty made them pointless. Really shows the limitations of airzones.
While only fighting China it is not suboptimal. And you can just disband the wings later on or give them a land-based order.
But then you'll have "too many planes in stockpile" warning :p
Seeing how devs did similar stuff to SCW: it's them realizing that their representation of land-based combat fails utterly at achieving any kind of "stalemate" (not counting "out-of supply" division spam of late 1940s - it's nearly perfect by then). Hopefully, they'll choose to revamp it somehow along with logistics instead of adding more band-aid in form of temporary debuffs (Winter War seems a likely candidate here), so it would work not only in few scripted wars, but become integral part of the game: say, you stage a coup in Mexico - should it really be that different from SCW?
 
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ladner

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HugsAndSnuggles- I think you have made a key point regarding how stalemate doesn’t occur without some added event mechanic and in this case the malus due to the Marco Polo bridge event in the game engine. I had a different thread were after following Porta80’s video capitulated the Soviet Union as Germany. Under current game mechanics had little to any logistics issues just constant attack along the whole frontline, which is completely unrealistic. The game engine doesn’t handle the ebb and flow of operations that was driven by supply and logistics.
 
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ladner

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I'll give you my strat to easily defeat China with Japan (in SP historical with expert AI)
You want to start the war asap, so you'll not face united China and can pick chinese nations one by one.

pre war build up :
Focus, just rush marcopolo incident. While doing so you will build civ industry in your province with high infrastructure so you don't lose very much not going to war economy.
With Japan, you just have 3 oil. Your industry is very weak so you don't want to import anything. The good point is that your oil reserves are full. That's enough to defeat China. Save your oil (just train your fighters) and don't build anything like new planes, tanks, mot, that use fuel. So your MIC should be use to build infantry & support equipment, and artillery.
PP : save 150+ for silent workhorse, then one army decision (that one give you 4 new military factories)
require from puppets all their divisions. Train all your army (one of your garrison is green, disband it). Switch all motorized/tank/marines to infantry template, saving back your trucks and light tanks. Those will be very helpful later.
You should aim for 72 division (3 armies of 24), you'll not have enough equipment to raise more.

pre war deployment.
You'll initially attack Shanxi alone. Deploy 7 infantry divisions in Front of Beijing. 4 more will be use to naval invade from Philippina the second southest city of nationalist China (that one is surrounded with mountains). Every other infantry divisions (10 at least) and your cavalry should be deploy facing Shanxi, one group ready to rush it's capital through forest, another to go as east as possible through desert. Bolster your naval invasion with 6 more garrison divisions, fill any gap on the border with garrison but be very careful to not exceed supply limit. Finally, use your TAC bomber to get air superiority over Shanxi.

War with Shanxi :
When Marco polo bridge focus is completed, declare war to Shanxi. with pp, escalate war in China as often as possible, and improve workers condition asap. You should meet very little resistance but you'll have to occup all the country before they surrender. When they give up, strat redeploy everything in South Shanxi (just left a frontline filled with a few garrison ofc along shanxi border) and drawn orders to breakthrough then march along the river until your reach the coast. Doing so will allow you to encircle half of the Chinese army.

As soon as you have xp you can tweak your infantry template with support artillery. Then duplicate it and replace reco company by a tank reco company : that will give you very little armor, but that's enough against China WW1 equipment to get the armor bonus (which make them 4 times more effective). You have enough light tanks for 15 divisions (I recommand to spare a few tanks, so 14 divisions). Be very careful to never use those divisions in moutains or mud, because you have very few spare tanks.

War with nationalist China :
Start war against nationalist China. Attack Beijing, now little defended by overstretched Chinese army while your main force breakthrough from southern Shanxi.
Your naval invasion in south just aim to attract some troops, especially soviet volunteers. You should quickly assaut the port (with naval fire support, don't forget that), then just advance a bit on the mountain around and stay.
After pocketing such a big part of the Chinese army, it should be very easy to make more encirclements.

Ending the war, annexing/puppeting whole China :
If you're successful, you'll need to stop yourself, waiting for China to complete the united front focus. If you don't, you'll get the peace conference just with nationalist China and Shanxi. When China has created united front, it will drag every other Chinese nations in war. You must get at least a frontline with each of them so you can annex/puppet them during the peace conference. Once you're sure to get them, finish nationalist China.
I am looking forward to trying your strategy. Currently don’t have access to my PC but I realize my biggest mistakes have been: 1) taking on unified China 2) not making use of the decision to escalate the war
 

GhostsofWar

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I am looking forward to trying your strategy. Currently don’t have access to my PC but I realize my biggest mistakes have been: 1) taking on unified China 2) not making use of the decision to escalate the war

If you do give it a try let me know how it went, I gave that same strategy a try on Vanilla Ironman, and I was still roadblocked by United China about 80 days or so before I could do Marco Polo, even with me just focusing on rushing it.

EDIT: Giving it another try now. I have the 150 PP for the Silent Workhorse at 10:00 am 9 JUN 1936. 1 24 stack of Infantry, 1 24 stack of Garrisions, a 9 stack of Cav, and a 6 Stack of Infantry that I am trying to build up to a second 24 stack of Infantry. Steel for Guns was Achived on 19 JUL 1936. Chinese United Front has formed 31 JUL 1936, I have only just started Marco Polo Bridge and am 2 days in, so it seems like United Front might be tied to the forming of the Japanese faction, as I had pretty much just completed that focus.

30 JUN 1937, Naval Invasion was surrounded and bottled up before slowly being destroyed due to lack of supplies, even with the port being held, no progress made what so ever in to Shanxi or Nat China, even with 2 escalate war in china decisions taken. Moved 5 Infantry Units back off the Shanxi border to help ease over supply issues, and that line just collapsed. I ended it just after 1 JAN 1938 after the rest of the Chinese warlords just marched through my under supplied units.

EDIT 2: @ladner I feel that this strategy is only for the Expert AI mod as my attempt as noted above was on Vanilla, so I would be interested in comparing notes when you give it a try if you are going to attempt on Vanilla, maybe I missed something or am not seeing how to speed up the ability to declare on China without the United Front forming.
 
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GhostsofWar

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-snip-

pre war deployment.
You'll initially attack Shanxi alone. Deploy 7 infantry divisions in Front of Beijing. 4 more will be use to naval invade from Philippina the second southest city of nationalist China (that one is surrounded with mountains). -snip-

Which city would that be? There is Hangzou, Ningbo, Fuzhou all surrounded by mountains. I am just trying to help make it clear for anyone else who might try this.
 

sekelsenmat

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I am beginning to find that the starting division templates are really bad, now I understand they are historical, so I suppose my advocacy of wanting "historical' templates is on poor footing. In truth I'd really just like to see division that have historic equipment, balanced and combined arms, so infantry, artillery, AA, AT and so on that will fit into the width system without the malus/penalties due to the width mechanic. But I digress.

The starting division is not historical. It is 12 inf/0 art, right? You can use 15 inf / 3 art with support eng, horse recon. This is very close to the historical and would wield 39 width which is nearly perfect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_Imperial_Japanese_Army#Organisation

I use that and it works great against China. I don't even need Tanks much. In the first 6 months you don't attack, just hold the Chinese attacks, but you need to have a lot of divisions near Beijing. I don't remember how many, but like 15 of them easily, otherwise the chinese will deorg you and advance. Keep some fast divisions of tanks, horse or motorized behind the line regaining org and put them in battles where you are losing.

I wouldn't put AT nor AA versus China in the game because it is too expensive, unfortunately. I am also disappointed that you can use diverse divisions because the loses in varied equipment are huge.

Just defend while you do the "escalate" decision to remove your debuffs. Once you don't have debuffs then attack. You need to navally invade the south to expand the frontline, otherwise they have too many units in each province. But it is very tricky you can easily get surrounded and have your divisions die. You need to invade fast and reach the mountains and establish a defense line there. After the south is estabilized and the north has less enemies, then attack.

WIth such a small industrial base it doesn't seem feasible to support a mechanized/motorized army (in the sense of large tank formations). Of course there are a whole host of problems, lack of speed to encircle, perhaps this is what the cavalry formations should be for, maybe add armored cars?

I think that the lack of XP is a bigger problem, a lot of XP is necessary to make a big/useful division.
 
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HugsAndSnuggles

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You need to navally invade the south to expand the frontline, otherwise they have too many units in each province.
Which is why I prefer using tanks: even in small number they just roll all defences over - debuff or no.
(of course, mine are busy with border skirmish for a couple months anyway, so I do not send them in with full debuff)
20200531212807_1.jpg20200726235425_1.jpg
I mostly see naval invasions as a way to help AI get some divisions encircled.

But, I suppose, using a lot of infantry to spread Chinese around with naval invasions is a more "proper" way of doing it. Personally, I just hate the idea of microing invasion orders to minimize preparation time, and it takes way too long without.
 

Ffire

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Regarding tanks any thoughts about using the recon light tank company? Using with infantry division, poor man’s Space Marine. There was some discussion about this on the r/HOI4 Reddit.

That's how I strongly advise to use your starting 360 light tank I. With only 24 tanks per reco company, you can give that to 15 divisions. That's 15 divisions that take only 50% of the normal damage while infliting twice normal org. All in all, that's multiplicating 4 times their efficiency. Because you start the war very early, there's no way the Chinese get enough piercing.

Personnaly, I stick with starting templates until the war start, then I kill Shanxi and choose 14 hoden shidan division that I swap to a new model, with the tank recon company. Then I upgrade that model as soon as equipment start to be available, until I get a 14/4 with tank reco, art, ing.
I duplicate that one and use it to create another 14/4+reco/art/ing (but with cav reco). It's better overall to focul equipment and xp to a small group of division, those will spearhead my offensive.
I use a lot of art with Japan, because you can't really use tanks later.
I start with 10 factories on infantry guns, 3 producing support equipment, then anything else build artillery.
 
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