'Imperial Gamble' - Introduction to an alt-history mod

[tuore]

I like those Hungarian borders.
I'd like to keep Galicia in, though. Since it will be a Russian puppet, it won't have any significant status (besides, Galicia exists in KR), it keeps Russia a bit smaller and gives reason for the Poles to hate the Russians (and seek unification with Galicia once the Civil War has begun). I'll create Slovakia, but will it stand on its own? Should it also become a puppet of someone?

 

[JRHINDO]

Is the Triest zone a free country or is it under League of Nations control, Tuore?
IRL Trieste was a city protected by the League like Danzig.

 

[Cohacq]

I'm pretty sure you guys have this already, but Wikipedia has an ethnic map for A-H, which could simplyfy our struggle with how to split it up.


Anyways, here's my suggestion: Austria keeps Bohemia. Romania takes Transylvania (as in OTL). Bosia and Slovenia are freed. Galicia is split apart by Poland and Ukraine if they exist, or eathen by Russia. And Slovakia is either free or a puppet (as a kind of protectorate) under Hungary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Austria_Hungary_ethnic.svg

EDIT: found another map which can be useful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magyarorszag_1920.png

 

[tuore]

Is the Triest zone a free country or is it under League of Nations control, Tuore?
IRL Trieste was a city protected by the League like Danzig.

Protected by LoN.
I'll wait on opinions on Cohacq's post, but it seems all right.

 

[JRHINDO]

If slovakia is a hungarian puppet then the czech lands should be a puppet too.

 

[unmerged(130734)]

Here's my proposal for Hungarian borders. (Crude work)

nah, it was already decided that border will be like 1941 Hungary + Eisenstadt. ( =this map -Arad -Turda, +Bistrita +Miercurea Ciuc +Novi Sad, since great many Hungarians live there, as you can see on maps posted earlier)

 

[tuore]

nah, it was already decided that border will be like 1941 Hungary + Eisenstadt. ( =this map -Arad -Turda, +Bistrita +Miercurea Ciuc +Novi Sad, since great many Hungarians live there, as you can see on maps posted earlier)

Nothing is 100% decided yet. Great works aren't finished in days.

 

[unmerged(130734)]

yeah, sorry. but i think ghery's gonna agree with me on this issue

 

[tuore]

Also, the aesthetic value is much higher in Ghery's map. To be honest, the borders in your map, while perhaps correct in nationality, are uglier.

 

[Ghery]

I can understand why to use the '41 map as it was _almost_ perfect from an ethnic point of view, but here I stirred things up a bit for fun.

First, Eisenstadt remained Hungarian. Because it was part of the Kingdom and Austria got beaten more severly than in OTL. Possible crossclaims are also given by this.

Second, Transylvania got foolishly divided. Lot of ethnic regions got the wrong owner, everybody is happy with the gains (rest) and unhappy about them in the same time. Especially Romania. Crossclaims and stuff.

Third, Mega-Serbia. Retaining control of the Délvidék (Novi Sad, Ruma) is out of question in this case. Timisoara also in Serbian hands - crossclaiming is fun

Fourth, Slovakia. Posters decided to have the country, so I decided not to go in the opposite direction. Maybe in this scenario, without the Czech lobby, the two countries could solve disputes by the table, so ethnic borders were drawn and everybody's quite happy with them. (Same should go with Croatia and Slovenia, at least from the Hungarian aspect) Treaties should be applied.

Four point fifth, Czech Republic. I decided to have them, if Slovakia can exist. After all they have everything to run a state, and the are like a dagger in the German's back. Strong democracy, loud member of Entente, etc.

Fifth, Russia. As well as others, I'm perfectly fine with annexing everything. Galicia is made up from poles and ukranians, so the province of Chust had to go. Not vital, no ethnic claims on it, but it was still part of the Kingdom.

In general, the Carpathian basin is a whole both in geographic and economic meaning. Now it's divided along crazily drawn borders and hatered, as nobody's fully satisfied. Ideal place for another war

 

[unmerged(82381)]

The only way I see it being possible is that the Weimar Republic faces revolutions and unrest so much and for so long that the German people simply don't trust a democratic government anymore and want back the old times. Didn't Wilhelm go to Netherlands in exile?

Yes, Wilhelm II lived the rest of his life in the Netherlands. Died there in 41 IIRC.

I haven't given the matter much thought, more interested in seeing if anyone is open to the idea than anything else. However the 1930s were a rough period in OTL Germany, and if the nazis aren't going to be an issue it seems plausible (to me at least) that the German conservatives would back a return of a monarch.

 

[tuore]

I found an interesting thread on the subject: http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=142070

Eurofed's post seems very good, with a few adjustments (no poland, no german gains).

Also, what the map doesn't show - there were many Slovaks living in Hungary and hungarians in Slovakia, thus a clear border according to nationality was very hard to make.

 

[unmerged(130734)]

I found an interesting thread on the subject: http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=142070

Eurofed's post seems very good, with a few adjustments (no poland, no german gains).

Also, what the map doesn't show - there were many Slovaks living in Hungary and hungarians in Slovakia, thus a clear border according to nationality was very hard to make.

yeah, i like eurofed's solution too - really, it's what i suggested, except Eisenstadt. Slovakians in Hungary lived very far from today's border, in today's south-eastern Hungary (Békés county).

 

[tuore]

yeah, i like eurofed's solution too - really, it's what i suggested, except Eisenstadt. Slovakians in Hungary lived very far from today's border, in today's south-eastern Hungary (Békés county).

What about non-hungarian changes in the suggestion? We need to solve this Balkan problem quickly so we can move on.

 

[tuore]

Another interesting post from the same thread: http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2935905&postcount=43

It received less criticism than Eurofed's, except that annexed Bosnia was criticized (due to the large muslim population). With a few adjustments to Slovakia and Hungary, we have our Balkans. Independent Sudetenland would be protected by the LoN.

 

[Hax]

Free Bosnia!

 

[tuore]

So, option 1 or 2?

Option 1:

Option 2:

Not everyone can be pleased, nor was in the OTL peace treaty. It's either one, with only slight changes possible (like Chust - who should it go to?).
Also, there were only a small amount of Hungarians in Bistrita (more in Miercurea Sic), and those borders look nice. Keep in mind that the borders can, and most likely will, change during the interwar and in the actual gameplay.

 

[JRHINDO]

Why is the sudetes red?

 

[tuore]

Why is the sudetes red?

Because there's enough green or blue.
If you are really asking what I think, Sudetes are a protectorate of the League of Nations. If we are making nationalities independent, we can't put the Sudet germans to Czechoslovakia. And leaving them to Austria makes messy borders. Germany is out of the question.

 

[The War Monger]

In this case without Serbia gaining Bosnia and the huge numbers of Ethnic and Nationalist Serbians within Bosnia at this point I would see it as almost certain that Bosnia at some point will be attacked by Serbia and/or Bosnia will be wracked by problems due to Serbian Support of their ethnic population and separatist groups within Bosnia proper.

Either that or Bosnia would experience a huge migration by the Serbian Ethnicities into Serbia proper, leading to a some sort of mechanical boost and mechanical hindrance to Serbia and Bosnia respectively. Just lifting ideas off Alternate History like that is always a risk due to the nature of the debates which take place there, often the most historically plausible borders are not reached just to avoid (or as a result of) the members on the board from the regions in question falling into nationalistic flame wars due to carry overs of regrettable stereotypes.

I also find it HUGELY unlikely that Serbia who was I believe a member of the Entente is the only nation in the area not keeping its territorial integrity, and doubt that this would have gone down well at all probably leading to a polarisation of the Balkans with Serbia almost certainly swapping sides in a theoretic Second World War. After all they had fought on the victorious side in the war and then were forced to cede land with only roughly equal size gains. When they gained Bosnia as well Serbia being placated was likely, as it stands....Serbia has been shafted by its own allies, when all the other minor Entente members made huge gains.

Here is a map of Ethnicities within Yugoslavia in 1940...look at the areas within Bosnia that are majority Serbian....at that time.