Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Imperial Diet

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Domenic stood, shocked at both the arguments and the Emperor's reaction.
Dear delegates this age sows dissent into all corners. Our Church is ripped asunder, our own lands are divided between Bishops who push for Rome or Avignon. We must now avoid this dissent splitting our own Empire, the most important temporal institution in Christendom. This is not the fault of one Prince or another but the infection of our age.

If it pleases the Emperor His Grace, my lord the Archbishop of Cologne has proposed a new ruling to be made accross the Empire. Archdioceses and Dioceses within the Empire, as spiritual bodies are allowed to declare for either Avignon or Rome, or indeed for neither. However these Archdiocese and Dioceses are prohibited from making war upon one another over the issue of the Schism. Princes may follow the same. His Grace the Archbishop is willing in any such war to provide troops and His blessing on Imperial troops to enforce the status quo.

This schism is tearing our hearts apart, but we cannot let it tear apart the beathing heart of Christendom. Do not doubt that the Mahometian and the Greek are looking at our spiritual and political division now, with eager, hungry eyes.
 
Erik Andersen von Kaas rises and replies.

"On behalf of the count of Rostock, Oluf of Denmark, I respectfully speak against the proposal put forth by the representative from Köln.
While I assure all that his Grace the count of Rostock have no plans to wage any wars on any Imperial lands, I must warn about a few pittraps we risk with the proposed idea.
We must remember that wars are rarely started for religious reasons. The matter here discussed concerning Sicily contains the Schism as one of the problems, but also concerns families, lands, old feuds and ancient or new claims. To declare it a religious strife would be a simplification.
In addition, often wars are declared for just reasons. Should any Imperial Prince be left without other means of justice but war, I trust we agree that he should be allowed to wage said war. Now, if his opponent is wise, he would, once he saw that the rightfull side has tried every other approach, declare for the Pope not supported by the rightfull side, and thus be safe from even the rightfull war.

If the proposal is made Imperial law, who should decide whose side the Empire interferes on? If the Empire interfered on the side supporting Avignon, the Empire at large would support Avignon. Should the Empire support the warring part fighting for the Roman Pontiff, the Empire would by arms declare for Rome. And should the Empire in all cases declare for the attacked part, it becomes in effect impossible for princes to correct old wrongs and punish oathbreakers for the duration of the Schism.
Let the Empire declare or remain neutral, but in the latter case, let it be true neutrality."
 
Vaclav nodded.

While we very appreciate the fervor with which Archbishop of cologne is promoting current status quo and it will not be forgotten, we're afraid that *cough* count of rostock *cough* is right. Any kind of scoundrel and murderer could misuse this imperial protection.

Besides I'd like to remind you all...

Vaclav sets his eyes on delegate of Pfalz where he leaves them for rest of his speech


That all princes of holy roman empire are brothers, and no fratricidal wars will be tolerated.
 
A fairly elderly man announced as Father Heinrich Finstingen von Saarbrücken is led into the chamber of the Diet.

His Excellency, The Archbishop of Trier of The Most Holy Catholic Church, Archchancellor of Gaul and Imperial Elector of the Holy Roman Empire, Kuno II von Falkenstein has requested my presence here as his personal representative. As such there are a few matters of great interest that I am to confer with the Diet. His Excellency fully supports the proposal made by the Archbishop of Cologne that prohibits wars based upon support of either Rome or Avignon.

The representative of Rostock has raised an important point, that wars are not fought over just religion. Perhaps then an audience should be called with the differing parties and the archbishoprics within the empire may surmise their intent. If it is deemed that their conflict is not based upon the schism, then they will be directed to His Imperial Majesty, if the conflict is based upon the schism, then they must sheathe their swords of malice or face spiritual and temporal consequences. That will allow for a neutrality within the empire regarding the schism while permitting just wars over other issues.

I must warn my fellow delegates, however, that as much as you wish to be officially neutral and let each prince choose for himself which Holy Father he will follow, it will at some point come to a decision of ultimately where your soul lies. What will happen when one of you feels called by God and Pope to smite the followers of the other? War? A splintering of the Empire? Where will that leave you then? No my fellow delegates, it is imperative that we issue a ban on religious wars within the Empire itself, for both parties.
 
Pietro Cardinal Corsini was not present, still not present. Some said he had left the city; but against this rumour spoke the fact that his aides were in Prague, dutyfully attending the sessions of the Diet every day, always taking a seat in the rearest ranks, usually sitting next to the brother Domenic of Cologne. Without guidance of any kind, the two secretaries but sat and listened and did not speak.

But when the matter of the investiture was brought up, they could no longer keep quiet. After a silent debate of an hour or so, the oblate Michel Forgière, the round and jolly little Frenchman who had the louder voice, stood up to speak.

“Imperial Majesty, noble delegates...” he began in a trembling voice: he was not used to speaking in public at all, least in front of such a noble audience. Forgière blushed as his throat constricted with a spasm of fear. “Noble delegates, Imperial Majesty, noble delegates, I would like to adress the matter of the investiture of bishops within the Empire, if you’d be so kind to allow me to.” Greatly embarassed, he did not dare to look up: he was gazing at his own clasped hands as he spoke, which pose incidentally made him seem very pious and saintly. “The very noble and very learned delegate, Lord Willem, proposed Your Majesty and this most venerable assembly to grant the right of the investiture to the ecclesiastic electors of the Empire. While I don’t contest the wisdom of the Lord Willem’s proposal, neither I would dare to contest the wisdom of the Most Reverend ecclesiastic electors... err... I would like to present a much simpler -- and I daresay: better -- solution to the problem.”

Forgière took a deep a breath: he felt a drop of sweat running down on his cheek. “It is an old and good tradition indeed, practiced in the ancient times, that the bishop is elected by the congregation. In the modern times, the bishops and abbots are elected by the canons of the cathedrals and abbeys. This custom was confirmed in the Pactum Calixtum, commonly known as the Concordat of Worms, and I see not the reason why Your Imperial Majesty or... or the rival Popes would oppose this very good and noble tradition that is working very well since more than two hundred years...” He paused. “...and I see not the reason why this most noble tradition should be changed...?” he finished, questioning. Greatly embarassed, blushing, the French oblate then quickly sat back, trying to get out of sight again.
 
Erik Andersen rose, bowed to von Saarbrücken, and spoke.

"August Imperial Majesty, honoured delegates.
I am pleased that my honoured colleague, herr von Saarbrücken, recognizes that religion, allthough important, is not the sole reason for warring. I am equally honoured that his August Imperial Majesty in his wisdom has chosen to declare the stance of his Grace, the count of Rostock, Imperial policy. As such, we need not discuss it further.
However, it is clear that should it occur that one Imperial prince wage war upon another, religion being one of the issues warred over, the Empire would effectively, by sword, declare in favour of the side it intervened upon. Forced neutrality is thus not a viable solution.
Far better to let any Imperial prince decide for himself, since it is the immortal soul of said Imperial prince that is being threathened. Let any prince then decide how to react to the decisions of any other prince as he deems fit. And should it come to that, let even the Electors, the Emperor, and thus the Empire, declare for either side, in the understanding that even a declaration from the Empire at large should not force any prince to change his stance.

That is the will of his grace, Count Oluf of Rostock."
 
bohe4ja.png

The Official Announcer of the Empire has this to say to the noble delagates:

"Hear Ye, Hear Ye! With the Emperor departing for his annual hunt, all matters of great importance should be relegated to the Imperial Representative, Amalius Podoli in Prague. In the mean time, you are welcome to interrogate betwixt each other but must wait for his Imperial majesty to answer only later!"
 
It had been an uneventfull month in the Diet. Various trivial matters had filed the days, and Erik Andersen von Kaas, representing the Danish claimed county of Rostock, was utterly bored.
However, as he read and reread the instructions he had received, Erik realized that the safety of boredom was about to be dispelled. The reports he had received, and his instructions about how to act on it, should spark a renewed discussion.

As soon as the current topic, a trivial discussion concerning a complaint lodged regarding matters of tolls in Hanseatic dominated markets, was finished, Erik Andersen requested permission to speak. As that was received, Erik rose and took the floor.

"Honoured Delegates.
I wish to bring to the attention of this noble assembly troubling developments in the Southern Empire, in Italia, on to be exact; Siena.

I have by now received several reports, the truth of which should be undeniable, that the republic of Siena has been overturned. Normally, such matters should not concern us, if not for the fact that Siena, even though a republic, was a recogniced Imperial fief, and the doge a recogniced Imperial Prince.

However, a certain Gerardino da Lucari has by force of arms overturned a legelly elected and appointed Imperial prince. Was that not enough to worry us, said Gerardino is now titling himself not only count, but also duke, and has yet to send representation and swear oaths of fealty to His August Imperial Majesty.

Even more worrying is the fact that da Lucari has allready sworn fealty elsewhere; to the Vicar of Christ in Rome. And His Holiness, Urban VI, has accepted that pledge. It has also come to this, that His Holiness takes it on himself to appoint and annoint Imperial princes, and replace His August Imperial Majesty as overlord of Imperial lands. Furthermore, if my reports are to be believed, His Holiness has even formed a kingdom of Tuscany, and that within the borders of the Holy Roman Empire.
Included in this formed kingdom are also the cities of Pisa and Firenze, also Imperial fiefs. Even if we disregard the formation of a kingdom within the Empire, the overthrow by arms of an Imperial prince, the pledge of the usurper not to His August Imperial Majesty, but to His Holiness, the threath to the Imperial fiefs of Pisa and Firenze cannot be ignored. Is the Empire unwilling to react to these actions, unwilling to offer protection to its loyal princes, unwilling to defend the territorial intregrety of Imperial fiefs?
Honoured August Imperial Majesty, noble delegates, I submit these questions to your wisdom."
 
The Sienese Representative to the Imperial Diet comes forth...

nicoletodivespucci.jpg

Nicoleto Vespucci, Captain of the Duke of Siena​


The air within the Imperial Diet has become stale... Captain Nicoleto Vespucci, a loyal friend of the new Duke of Siena walked inside the grand Diet Hall to see murmuring and whispers as the Danish representative spoke badly of the changes in the southern regions of the Empire.

He walked forth seeing that he would need to take the opportunity to speak now, and cleared his throat, awaiting the man to finish. Clearly a Dane would know little of Italian affairs, he thought, becoming impatient as the man went on. When he finished, Nicoleto stood tall, cleared his throat aloud, and spoke - taking the floor as he did for the first time;

"Most august delegates of the first and most Christian Holy Roman Empire, I am representative to my liege, and I bring the hailings from my liege Gerardino da Lucari, the new Duke of Siena. It brings me great pride to stand here today and to report to you, the masters of the greatest Christian Empire, that the rebellious Republic of Siena, which in it's devilish corrupt state had little recognition for Imperial hedgemony or a care in the world for this august Diet's decisions, has been overturned by my liege the Duke, and he now delivers Siena informally into Imperial rule for the first time in centuries, to witness and adhere to the decisions of this Diet for the betterment of the Empire and Christianity. The filthy republic, which ignored this assembly's most august Imperial decisions, and ruled in a way God truly had never intended for man as confirmed by his Holiness in Rome, has been finally abolished to favour the Empire.

Due to the fact that the Duke of Siena is preparing for a visit from his Holiness in the capital - and in truth, total recognition of the new feudal state within Siena, irreversable in the eyes of the new Duke and his Holiness - I would offer Siena's sword to the Empire's service; for the Duke has decided that Siena shall be returned to a proper feudal state, under the Empire and the Pope, as is the proper way of rule within Imperial Italy.

Siena pledges her allgience to the Empire!"

republicarms.gif

The Duchy of Siena - Now a proper feudal fief of the Empire​

He then bowed deeply, the arms of Siena on his shoulder. It was a respectful and long bow meant for all the Imperial Diet and the Emperor's representative. He wanted them all to know that they should not be threatened by the recent changes in Italy, but see that it was a collective movement by the Duke and his Holiness to ensure a stronger Imperial and Church rule of these rebellious, self serving Republics.​
 
Last edited:
Balthasar von Wettin was shocked by the Sienese diplomat's words. "I, like you and your liege in Siena worship under the banner of the church in Rome. However, The Emperor has decided that his diet will be neutral in such affairs. As such, your liege has not universally been recognized as a Duke, nor has his usurpation been universally legitimized."

He sighed. "While I personally recognize the decisions of His Holiness Urban, some in this diet do not, and as such it is improper for you to speak in such a manner unless His Imperial Majesty Wenceslaus should decide to officially bring the empire behind the Roman pontiff's banner. The Diet remains neutral, whether that is right or wrong, and I doubt Robert of Geneva in Avignon is willing to recognize the new Sienese regime."
 
nicoletodivespucci.jpg

Nicoleto Vespucci of Siena,
Envoy to the Imperial Diet​


The Captain was never a politician, never had been one for soothing words, except to the ladies he had known in his life. Still, he would do his best to represent his Duke and friend's interests. He had to, for it was the Duke's only will to show the Empire of his means.

Turning to Balthasar von Wettin, he stood and nodded,

"Your grace, I am most avid to the Emperor's august word, as should all of Italy be, alas it has fallen into such a state where Imperial rule is belittled, made into petty lip service from these republics. These republics arise and fall, changing without Imperial recognition each time, and yet I forsee no reason for outrage that my liege has brought Siena under his true and proper Imperial rule.

No man here here in this most noble hall of governance can truly deny that no matter what opinion of the means, the fiefdom of Siena has now been delivered into proper Imperial rule, under the Duke who no less sees himself as a Duke under the Emperor, and the Pope in Rome of course. I apologize for the manner of which I speak, if I have been deemed improper, for I only want to deliver my liege's loyalties.
Any who stand behind the banners of these rebellious republics, who do nothing but serve their own means and ignore Imperial rule, may make the decision to not recognise my liege as Duke. I would not be so improper as to enforce my wills upon such honorable and noble men present here.

I stand here to serve the Empire in Siena, and Siena to the Empire. I can give you nothing more than that, your grace."

He the bowed in respect to the said delegate of Wettin.

​
 
He stroked his beard. "Well, the Sienese Republic supported the Imperial cause openly, fighting their Tuscan brothers at the behest of the Staufens. I for one have no problem with the government your liege decided to topple. However, I will return to my seat and cease evoking further controversies about the subject. However, I speak only for Thuringia. The affairs of Meissen and Sicily, on the other hand, I cannot claim to represent."

As promised, he took his seat. "Welcome to Prague. I hope you are able to enjoy your stay, however long it may be."
 
Dietrich von Ravensburg rose again. After so much trouble the last time around with the Wettin, they now had some silly noble claiming a Duchy:

"I do not, for the most part, reject entirely the idea that a government put in place by force of arms could be a legitimate government. Nor do I deny the right of the Vicar of Christ to grant a royal title.

However, there IS a problem. For a start, there has been no imperial recognition of either claimant to the papacy, and hence the Empire does not recognize the existence of the Kingdom of Tuscany, and in fact the development alone should be reason enough for my fellow delegates to stay firm on our stance of neutrality.

Imagine, my brothers, what could happen to you. The Pope, or any claimant to the title for that matter, could simply grant your lands to another lord, and supposedly you would simply have to accept it. No longer would his August Majesty be your sole overlord in temporal affairs, as the Vicar of Christ is in the matters of religion, but instead the Pope would be your overlord in all. An overlord who has at many times attempted to oppose the will of your only rightfull overlord.

And while I would hate to cause more strife, the only course of action that would befit the Empire is this: Condemn the creation of the new Duchy and kingdom, and accept this new ruler of Siena as Count of Siena at best. If we accept this, you could be the next one to be incorporated in a kingdom of your hated enemies."
 
Balthasar hesitated to stand up, but forced himself to do so. "Condemn the pope? That is insanity. Neutrality means we allow the two churches to do what they wish and, as the diet of the empire, ignore it. What you are suggesting is to spit in the eye of the Roman church, which has created kingdoms, duchies, and empires since Charles the Great six centuries ago. The Holy Roman Empire itself is a crown revived by the pope in the year 800."
 
Erik Andersen rose.

"Honoured delegates. Noble Diet.
I declare for you all that the county of Rostock is as devout a catholic county as could be wished for. I declare that the count of Rostock recognizes the Pope in Rome as the Vicar of Christ. But that is beside the question. Honoured von Ravensburg has adressed the question we should concern ourself with; that of the legality not of the new goverment of Siena, but of the legality of the Pope, residing in Rome or Avignon, to recognize that goverment.

Siena is at most a county, and will remain so untill His August Imperial Majesty has decided to declare it anything else. Allow me to correct myself; Siena is a republic, and will remain so untill His August Imperial Majesty accepts wows of fealty from a count of Siena.
The Holy Roman Empire is the temporal arm of the Church. The Pope governs our spiritual life, the Emperor the temporal. For that reason, the lands governed by His Holiness in Rome is not part of the Empire, as no man can serve the Pope and the Emperor as Temporal masters both!
Now, this proclaimed Kingdom of Tuscany endangers that balance, as laid down by Karl the Great in the year 800. If we, as Imperial Diet, allows this precedence to stand, His Holiness can by this act undermine the very foundation of the Empire. No, we must insist that the lands of the Empire are governed by Princes recogniced by the Emperor, not vassals of the Pope. And that I say, not because I wish to denounce His Holiness in Rome, but because I serve two masters; the Vicar of Christ with my soul, and the Holy Roman Empire with my swordarm."
 
Balthasar nodded as the Dane spoke. "Yes. It is legally the emperor's call decision to make, and as his most loyal subjects, the Haus Wettin will stand by whatever he may decide. However, who are we to denounce the pope? Princes of the empire are not his peers. He is the Vicar of Christ, successor of Saint Peter! It is best that we remain silent on that matter and simply refuse to refer to any Tuscan kingdom or Sienese duchy. Let His Imperial Majesty act for all of us, and let us not put words into his mouth."
 
nicoletodivespucci.jpg

Nicoleto Vespucci of Siena
Ducal Envoy to the Imperial Diet​


Nicoleto Vespucci had fought in many battles and conflicts, and in his lifetime had gotten his hands quite bloody, but nowhere he had found in his life a more difficult struggle than to reason with some of these Imperial delegates.

Politicians! He thought to himself. He stood and addressed Erik Andersen,

"Your grace with, all due respect, it is true that while this Diet and his Imperial Grace rules this most Christian Empire, it also remains true that God did not grant either body or ruler the right to say what things are and are not in reality or ignore the truths of what is, and the reality of the situation is, my lord, that there is no longer a Siena Republic. That vile governing body, never intentioned by God in scripture or sanctioned by the Church to rule in such a way, has been forever vanquished in Siena.
Any man here who indeed insists otherwise or refuses to recognize so, well, truly from experience has not been to Italy lately...

These lands were once a Duchy, and his Holiness wishes to make it once more a Duchy with the guidance of his Holiness and under proper Imperial rule, not the vile rule of the common peoples ignoring Imperial protocal, these Republics. I find it most peculiar that such noble men, adhering to the way of Empire and feudalism, would hold any support for these republics which no true Emperor I have known in history would ever support over the proper ruling way."
Imperial recognition was one thing, but to insist upon complete ignorance of the Republic even being gone? Preposterous ignorance! The Captain however thinking badly, maintained his most polite standard, bowing again after his statement. He knew that the utmost of respect was among the things needed to win these Imperialists over.

And did some of these delegates need be reminded that there were many small states that were vassal of the Pope politically, as well as states of the Empire already? Perhaps some of these Germans were not so studied in the politics of the southern regions of the Empire...

​
 
Last edited:
Father Guiseppi Rizzello, a Priest in the Vatican and the Papal Observer to the Diet rose after the Sienese Delegate finished. He looked to the Emperor, bowed most humbly, and addressed the Diet.

Honored Princes of the Empire, and its Most August Majesty. I am the Papal Observer to this diet, and have listened to the arguments. I speak on that subject. I have sent the proceedings of this diet to His Holiness, and he has taken great interest in the debate of Christiandem's largest Empire. He has recognized, in his lust for serving God that he might have overstepped his temporal bounds in meddling in the territory of the Holy Empire. While we still stand by the elevation of the Former Republic of Siena to a Duchy, we would like to retract the creation of the Kingdom of Tuscany, and recommend that this Great Body recognize the legitamcy of Signore da Lucari as Duke of Siena. We also stand by our preachings that a Republic is not the governance preferred by God. These territories most be converted into feudal states, and has charged the Duke of Siena in undertaking this task. While His Holiness realizes that this is, of course interfering in Empire affairs, we request that the Empire and this Honored Gathering approve such an action.
 
Nicoleto Vespucci bows to the delegates, and takes a temporary leave, for his lord requires his presence in the south for a short time. He leaves his attendant to witness affairs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back