Imperator - Sunday Morning Design Corner - May 5th 2019

[vanin]

We released another game 1.5 years after Rome called Victoria2 that sold about the same.

What would you think would happen if we ever made a sequel to that game and it was NOT the same features as the base?

I have bought Victoria 2 twice (GamerGate and Steam) and it is a fine game, but not entirely my cup of tea. It does however do something which no other strategy game in the world (that I know of) even attempts to do, for which I applaud it. I would, despite liking EU:Rome (I think I bought that 3 times: physical, GamerGate, Steam), argue that it is far less unique. To my knowledge the fans of EU:Rome are more fans of the era than fans of that particular game - at least I can say so for myself - and want that Paradox grand strategy flair brought to that era. Meanwhile I have encountered many who are self-proclaimed die-hard Victoria fans, a segment which I think EU: Rome has no parallel for. Just compare how many have Victoria 2 references in their footers to how many do the same for EU: Rome.

What I want to say is that messing with the formula in EU: Rome, a game which had a mostly dead modding community after only a couple years and only received a single expansion, is much less risky than doing so for Victoria which has 2 games in its back, more expansions and a much more vibrant modding community. Victoria 2 is undoubtedly the better liked game, and would fare worse if it underwent stark change. At least that is my take.

 

[Fluffy56547]

Please make music modding easier, it’s really difficult to do right now, and please add a music GUI. It’s all I ask for, please.

 

[magriboy0750]

I have bought Victoria 2 twice (GamerGate and Steam) and it is a fine game, but not entirely my cup of tea. It does however do something which no other strategy game in the world (that I know of) even attempts to do, for which I applaud it. I would, despite liking EU:Rome (I think I bought that 3 times: physical, GamerGate, Steam), argue that it is far less unique. To my knowledge the fans of EU:Rome are more fans of the era than fans of that particular game - at least I can say so for myself - and want that Paradox grand strategy flair brought to that era. Meanwhile I have encountered many who are self-proclaimed die-hard Victoria fans, a segment which I think EU: Rome has no parallel for. Just compare how many have Victoria 2 references in their footers to how many do the same for EU: Rome.

What I want to say is that messing with the formula in EU: Rome, a game which had a mostly dead modding community after only a couple years and only received a single expansion, is much less risky than doing so for Victoria which has 2 games in its back, more expansions and a much more vibrant modding community. Victoria 2 is undoubtedly the better liked game, and would fare worse if it underwent stark change. At least that is my take.

Agreed,Victoria 2 is the best Paradox Game ever.And at least it does not cost 300$ like CK2 and EU4.

 

[Anguille]

Buildings need to have a purpose though, and a benefit to be built.

Hi Johan,

I don't have the game yet but play EU:Rome. In EU:Rome, you can build more buildings in every province. In many 4x (like in Stellaris or MOO2) or even city-builders, the construction of buidlings have some big impact: library - more science, clinics - increase in population, baths - better health, etc. I would love to see more buildings in IR.

Keep it up. It's been a tough week but it's going to improve soon.

 

[wolfing]

Many people complain about mana like it's the most evil thing in history. I happen to like mana, it abstracts a lot of what could be unnecessarily complex mechanics. But I definitely don't like its instant-effect. Make mana actions take appropriate time and that would make things much less gamey.

 

[Elephant Killer]

Yes it is fun going from small to big. But it should be fun to play when you get big.

You're not wrong, but I can count on one hand the number of PDX starts I've ever finished. Unless there's a giant thing I'm planning on doing like smashing ck2 Aztecs on their first war or ripping Ming apart nation by nation until I fully annex them in eu4 I just quit when I reach the blob plateau

 

[Todie]

Interesting. could definitely be done.

Related about moving pops:
Like you said, functionality is there, but not usability. Any hints on how you are adressing this?

Would you loosen up the restrictions on pop-moving? For example allowing moves to adjacent provinces for 2x cost (or further away province capital?) ... instead of only to same province / adj city

Or allow moving 5-10 pops with one ctrl-click or similar?

... or would you rather enable the macro builder to handle this issue at some point?

Related: with changes comibg to growth / pop capacity, would you allow players to designate what cities newly taken slaves get housed? Or at least provide ilustrated info on this ahead of time?

... its frustrating that so much can be be done with tradegoods production, but its so cumbersome to organize it.

 

[magriboy0750]

Many people complain about mana like it's the most evil thing in history. I happen to like mana, it abstracts a lot of what could be unnecessarily complex mechanics. But I definitely don't like it's instant-effect. Make mana actions take appropriate time and that would make things much less gamey.

I prefer a game more complex.We are talking about a grand strategy game,not a mmo on mobile.

 

[Denkt]

About governments, I think every country should have their unique government built around building blocks rather than being something like aristocratic republic or settled tribe. It should be possible to have both a monarch and a senate and the senate should be able to come in many variations and the same should apply to monarchies.

Laws should work differently and probably should be the building blocks of a government rather than something that is unlocked by different governments.

 

[LeSingeAffame]

Aside from raising civilization power, there are other effects that buildings can have. Here are just a few example

• Libraries: help with research and increase in civilization value
• Theaters and other different entertainment buildings - province happiness and/or lowered revolt risk
• Aqueducts - a boost to population growth
• Baths - Population happiness

I feel like that kind of thing is mostly represented in the civilization value

 

[MaXimillion]

This is the feedback that I just do not understand. I took everything we had in Rome I, and made every mechanic deeper and more complex, while adding lots more new mechanics to make it into a game. This game was developed the same way we did EU4 and HOI2, the previous games I’ve been most satisfied with, where we used all the original gameplay code of the previous game, and just built upon that.

If you're building on an 11 year old codebase and design instead of learning from everything that's come after, it's no wonder you're in this mess. And you did not make EU: Rome 2, you made Imperator: Rome, which comes with different player expectations.

I understand that there is a part of the community that dislike abstracted currencies

EU4 isn't hated for it's use of mana for the most part, because of the ways you gain and use it. You can significantly impact what mana you gain with advisors and national focus, and you can fix any imbalances in your mana generation by picking more ideas of that type. A lot of the actions for using it also aren't instant, but take years to take effect after the initial mana investment, so they don't feel like magic.

You just can't delay games when they are a few months from release just because you get a few better ideas for a feature

If you didn't see that the game wouldn't be ready for release before then, someone really screwed up. Of course I suspect the real reason it wasn't delayed further than this was to have a major release in Q1 2019, but I understand you can't comment on that.

What would you think would happen if we ever made a sequel to that game and it was NOT the same features as the base?

EU4 does not have all the features of EU3, and it's a better game for it. HoI4 does not have all the features of HoI3, and it's a better game for it. And those series did not have 11 years between game releases (and Imperator isn't even called EU: Rome 2, so there's less of an expectation for same features).

Which is a bit awkward, considering its not a sequel to eu4.

It's a competitor to EU4, and you even have the advantage of being able to share knowledge and code within the studio to allow you to implement what works in EU4. The fact that UI/UX is years behind EU4's in so many ways (even though in the very first DD you said you'd be "implementing the knowledge we’ve learned in the last decade of making games with better UX") is inexcusable. For crying out loud, even the scrollbars in the options menu are worse than I've seen in any product in a decade.

sadly not prioritised.

How are customizable hotkeys still not prioritized in 2019? This has been industry standard for decades.

 

[magriboy0750]

If you're building on an 11 year old codebase and design instead of learning from everything that's come after, it's no wonder you're in this mess. And you did not make EU: Rome 2, you made Imperator: Rome, which comes with different player expectations.



EU4 isn't hated for it's use of mana for the most part, because of the ways you gain and use it. You can significantly impact what mana you gain with advisors and national focus, and you can fix any imbalances in your mana generation by picking more ideas of that type. A lot of the actions for using it also aren't instant, but take years to take effect after the initial mana investment, so they don't feel like magic.



If you didn't see that the game wouldn't be ready for release before then, someone really screwed up. Of course I suspect the real reason it wasn't delayed further than this was to have a major release in Q1 2019, but I understand you can't comment on that.



EU4 does not have all the features of EU3, and it's a better game for it. HoI4 does not have all the features of HoI3, and it's a better game for it. And those series did not have 11 years between game releases (and Imperator isn't even called EU: Rome 2, so there's less of an expectation for same features).



It's a competitor to EU4, and you even have the advantage of being able to share knowledge and code within the studio to allow you to implement what works in EU4. The fact that UI/UX is years behind EU4's in so many ways (even though in the very first DD you said you'd be "implementing the knowledge we’ve learned in the last decade of making games with better UX") is inexcusable. For crying out loud, even the scrollbars in the options menu are worse than I've seen in any product in a decade.



How are customizable hotkeys still not prioritized in 2019? This has been industry standard for decades.

Agreed to all.

 

[LeSingeAffame]

About governments, I think every country should have their unique government built around building blocks rather than being something like aristocratic republic or settled tribe. It should be possible to have both a monarch and a senate and the senate should be able to come in many variations and the same should apply to monarchies.

Laws should work differently and probably should be the building blocks of a government rather than something that is unlocked by different governments.

Yep, preferably around the national ideas.
A republic with, say, Complex Tariffs, should be treated as a Plutocratic one
A kingdom with Conscription and Martial Ethos should be treated as a Stratocratic one

And so on

 

[NovaCameron]

You're not wrong, but I can count on one hand the number of PDX starts I've ever finished. Unless there's a giant thing I'm planning on doing like smashing ck2 Aztecs on their first war or ripping Ming apart nation by nation until I fully annex them in eu4 I just quit when I reach the blob plateau

I understand but I think that is a reflection of how few internal 'games' there are to play within a nation. It should be more challenging as you get bigger internally. Not easier. It's more that the focus changes from outside to inside.

 

[Pirex]

It makes sense the governors give you tyranny for changing the policy. They were supposed to be almost like Kings, it was very decentralized and they did what they saw fit on their provinces as long as they were loyal to the republic and answered the Consuls call in times of war (and some times they didnt even do that).


But maybe, instread of giving tyranny that affect the whole country and pops, maybe it should just give a -30 loyalty to the governor or something.

That is not totally acurate, they were given free hand to conduct the state apointed policies, sure they could be cruel or good dudes that was enterily on to them...
Some times we see free governors to use policies like:" frontier region" in the midle of italia like wtf? Or governors like:" we just conquered these dudes, i feel like i want to exploit them so they become eaven more rebelious and if you try to stop me and correct me you are a mean ruler" like wtf?
Some other way maybe, sure if the governor is disloyal sure he could act on free hand, maybe eaven rebel idk. How it is makes no sense to me and other players im sure xD

 

[Akbar The Great]

I feel like that kind of thing is mostly represented in the civilization value

Hmmm, masses of buildings etc abstracted into one nebulous mechanic - not good gameplay in my opinion. The ability to specialise your cities and provinces adds game play and is an enjoyable part of EUIV, four buildings is just nonsense in this day and age.

 

[magriboy0750]

If you're building on an 11 year old codebase and design instead of learning from everything that's come after, it's no wonder you're in this mess. And you did not make EU: Rome 2, you made Imperator: Rome, which comes with different player expectations.



EU4 isn't hated for it's use of mana for the most part, because of the ways you gain and use it. You can significantly impact what mana you gain with advisors and national focus, and you can fix any imbalances in your mana generation by picking more ideas of that type. A lot of the actions for using it also aren't instant, but take years to take effect after the initial mana investment, so they don't feel like magic.



If you didn't see that the game wouldn't be ready for release before then, someone really screwed up. Of course I suspect the real reason it wasn't delayed further than this was to have a major release in Q1 2019, but I understand you can't comment on that.



EU4 does not have all the features of EU3, and it's a better game for it. HoI4 does not have all the features of HoI3, and it's a better game for it. And those series did not have 11 years between game releases (and Imperator isn't even called EU: Rome 2, so there's less of an expectation for same features).



It's a competitor to EU4, and you even have the advantage of being able to share knowledge and code within the studio to allow you to implement what works in EU4. The fact that UI/UX is years behind EU4's in so many ways (even though in the very first DD you said you'd be "implementing the knowledge we’ve learned in the last decade of making games with better UX") is inexcusable. For crying out loud, even the scrollbars in the options menu are worse than I've seen in any product in a decade.



How are customizable hotkeys still not prioritized in 2019? This has been industry standard for decades.

Also,the game no longer have 32 bit support and doesn't work properly on Intel cards and olders pcs.Planned obsolescence,i watching you.

 

[DerMaulwurf]

Im prety sure in all history almost the entirety of governors were apointed to do the state job, either to convert, assimilate, exploit, conquest and expand, however some might had gone rebelious like julius ceaser, most were loyal and carry on the state apointed goals LOOL and didnt outright consider their state tiranical for being told to enforce whatever policies they wanted.
And if that was the case, you can exploit and pause the game, select and keep changing the governor until the policy you want appears for free Now that way isn't tiranical LOOL i know it's a bug probably reported alraidy but still.. Governors should abide by the state, and sure some flavour and events for some rebelious governors or whatever would be nice. Or going against the senate wishes for a particular provice gaining tirany... sure it would be fun. Bot for normal governors doing the state apointed duties should not xD

That's a MUCH too modern take on governors.

In Rome governorships were given to politicians whose term in Roman office was through. These people than proceeded to do whatever they wanted in the provinces. And in many cases that was simply bleeding the locals for money. For the late republic it wasn't rare that people went into politics with the explicit target of exploiting the provinces.
There weren't even any explicitly state appointed goals. People were simply expected to behave themselves as romans (whatever that meant for the individual).

 

[Elephant Killer]

Ah, that's quite problematic since religion was incredibly important at that time.

Yes and no. It was important but nothing like the importance in ck2. Religion didn't even exist in the sense we understand it now. Certainly if you referred to "religio" as "religion" anyone from the time would have no idea what you're on about.

Even the most "organized" of the cults in the game like Hellenism or Judaism werent cohesive sects, it's just a convenient aggregation for thousands of local practices across a general region. Gods and rites varied wildly from village to village and even household to household. Yes there was anxiety about foreign practices, people were upset when foreign conquerors brought their weird gods in. And there were pogroms such as the Babylonian Exile. But this was not in the context of a crusade driven world or the 30 years war of EU4. It would be more accurate to say that religion was an integral part of cultural identity, and like culture it was very malleable

 

[Pirex]

Aside from raising civilization power, there are other effects that buildings can have. Here are just a few example

• Libraries: help with research and increase in civilization value
• Theaters and other different entertainment buildings - province happiness and/or lowered revolt risk
• Temples - omen power(especially if in capital) and maybe a small other bonus dependent on the god or goddess being offered. So a city whose most prominite temple is dedicated to say Ares, then you might have a tad more manpower from that province or if the main temple in a city is dedicated to Hermes then a small commerce boost from that temple.
  
• Dockyards - boost to naval warfare and a boost to commerce; could even split it off into docks(focusing on commerce) and Shipyards(focusing on naval warfare)
  
• Aqueducts - a boost to population growth
• Baths - Population happiness
• Plantations - resource production improvement

I like this ideia alot!...