Imperator needs to distinguish between Professional Soldiers and Conscripts

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Grand Historian

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This is something that I have heavily advocated for to no avail in EU4, but I will do so here in Imperator: there needs to be a distinguishing between Conscripted soldiers and Professional soldiers in Imperator for the warfare to truly shine.

While I could wax philosophical about the importance of representing such a difference in an age where Professional armies began to be formulated and organized for the first time in history and men were often expected to provide their own arms and armor, or cite examples demonstrating the superiority of a citizen-soldiery over slave-soldiers and tribesmen, I believe it would be redundant to my case: generally speaking, most people familiar with this period are familiar with those concepts.

Rather, I’ll keep my case brief: forming a distinction in manpower between these two classes is one of the most important steps towards representing differences in quality without needing to give significant and incontestable military bonuses to the Romans, Greeks or Carthaginians in the same way that the French and Prussians get +20% Land Morale in EU4. The way a split in manpower could feasibly work is that each pop type provides an amount of manpower: Citizens provide a small amount of manpower exclusively for the professional pool and Tribesmen and Slaves provide some manpower exclusively for the conscript pool. Freemen provide the most manpower: most of it going to the conscript pool, but a lesser amount to the professional pool (not as much as the citizens provide, however).

From there, every unit type can be recruited as either being a professional regiment or a conscripted regiment: rather than working as a flat bonus to unit stats, however, a professional unit’s bonus would instead vary depending on the unit type. So a Professional Heavy Infantry regiment would be vastly superior to a Conscripted Heavy Infantry Regiment, but a Professional Light Infantry regiment would not be as advanced compared to a Conscripted Light Infantry Regiment. Then, bonuses to Professional units can be added to the military tradition trees: for example, the Romans, Greeks and Carthaginians could get boons to the amount/ratio of professional manpower they get from Citizen and Freemen pops to give them an edge in quality without making it innate, while Celtic ideas could give bonuses to professional unit types (such as Light Infantry) that aren’t as good as some others to make them competitive and match their historical tactics. Of course, Professional units should also have drawbacks: they should be more likely to give their loyalty to commanders than conscripts, and cost more in maintenance. Additionally, as the professional pool would naturally be smaller than the conscripted one, the loss of large amounts of manpower from it would actually hurt.

This system would have a large number of advantages:

1): Balance – this would allow for the potential of larger military bonuses to the historical powerhouses of the period without making it innate: meaning that, unlike in EU4, you wouldn’t always be at a -20% Morale disadvantage because you’re fighting France. With sufficient maneuvering, cunning and careful composition you can still overcome a professional Roman army with ease, and Rome would feel the loss of that manpower. Furthermore, it would provide another money sink and make standing armies more of a threat in peacetime, as they were historically.

2): Modularity – by giving ratio differentials to pop types and different bonuses to different unit types, the game becomes even more modular. Say someone wants to make a medieval era mod – well, now, not only will their nobility pops not be contributing to the same manpower pool as their serf pops, their dismounted knights will be superior to some city guard.

3): Historicity – this would allow for a closer modelling of the historical realities of any army, and why some armies consistently succeeded over others in certain fields.

4): Choice – it gives more and interesting choices to the player: ‘do I recruit mercenaries for my professional units and make up the rest with conscripts to avoid the risk of my professional regiments backing a pretender?’ or ‘do I go with a small but highly trained army against a foe that outnumbers me?’ and so forth.

5): Uniqueness – it allows for ingame factions to feel even more unique without feeling unfair by having even more varied approaches to warfare, partially dictated by their civilization level. You're not going to get highly trained legions from some tribe in Arabia or Britain, but you might get highly trained skirmishers and cavalry.
 

Selzro

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This sounds like an excellent idea. There could even be a way to set the ratio in which citizens contribute to a professional army vs research. Do you want your citizens to keep you ahead in science, while you mostly use mercenaries and conscripts for your wars, or do you want them to mostly serve in professional phalanxes as heavy infantry?
 

Kinkness

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I highly support this idea too, and it honestly was something I suggested eons ago for Crusader Kings 2, between levies, and professional standing armies.

As you mentioned in EU 4 France for example getting a blanket bonus is not only shallow, its hard to balance around for the devs, and ontop of that you feel cheated when playing against, or like you're cheating when you're playing with them.

Having a bonus EVERYONE can use, but shifting it in favor of some historically powerful figures, like Rome would do a number of things as you said.

1) Allow for player error, which I feel is essential in strategy games.

2) Give a weaker nation a chance to outmenouver, and out plan their opponent, or simply counter.

It's something EU4 drastically fails at since they always want to do the "Straight blanket buffs, nerfs" instead of integrating into a system and mechanic that can be influenced.
 

Grand Historian

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This sounds like an excellent idea. There could even be a way to set the ratio in which citizens contribute to a professional army vs research. Do you want your citizens to keep you ahead in science, while you mostly use mercenaries and conscripts for your wars, or do you want them to mostly serve in professional phalanxes as heavy infantry?

That sounds like an even better idea! You could even extend that to all pop types to represent that farmers busy wielding spears aren't wielding plowshares.
 

Antediluvian Monster

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Citizens provide a small amount of manpower exclusively for the professional pool and Tribesmen and Slaves provide some manpower exclusively for the conscript pool. Freemen provide the most manpower: most of it going to the conscript pool, but a lesser amount to the professional pool (not as much as the citizens provide, however).

Isn't this backwards? Citizens should provide the conscripts since they have money to buy their own gear and since they are less likely to be dependent on salary and loot they are also less likely to be interested in a professional career (aside ranking commanders).

I also wouldn't like Romans going around with professional army for most of the period, so the ability to raise professionals should be locked behind high tech (or possibly legal reform and huge wealth, for soft cap), this in turn would mean huge balance change as now the manpower generation is tilted towards the otherwise productive citizen/noble pops for most of the game, potentially making them nobrainers over freemen.

More broadly, I think the most important thing for army professionalization to represent is the political and social change. In long term it should result in chronic instability, with unlocking of previously untapped manpower reserves and increase in quality (particularly experience retention) as carrots to go for it. As Rome, avoiding professionalization should be essential for maintaining the Republic through the game.

(Edit) A potential alternative: Citizens and freemen provide a pool of wealthy manpower (though still tilted towards latter), freemen, tribesmen and slaves provide a pool of poor manpower. Without enacting reforms that enable army professionalization, only the wealthy manpower pool can be used to recruit and reinforce certain unit types (heavy infantry, and probably all cavalry outside nomadic tribals). Once you enact reforms that enable professional army, the wealthy manpower pool gets restricted, the poor one expanded, and you can now recruit more expensive professional units from the poor manpower pool.
 
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Gordonthinker

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Like the idea! In a system where we could use mercenaries. Maybe they would have a higher chance of being bribed to side with the enemy as theyt have no loyalty or maybe have demands of their own. Like the idea of recruits and vets too.
 

Denkt

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Im not sure it is a good idea. Two Manpower pools may make military much more complicated and having two different version of each units also complicate stuff.

This sounds like an excellent idea. There could even be a way to set the ratio in which citizens contribute to a professional army vs research. Do you want your citizens to keep you ahead in science, while you mostly use mercenaries and conscripts for your wars, or do you want them to mostly serve in professional phalanxes as heavy infantry?
Already the case in the current system with freemen provide Manpower and Citizen provide research.
 

Sabratha

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Allow me to humbly contest some of the points.

So a Professional Heavy Infantry regiment would be vastly superior to a Conscripted Heavy Infantry Regiment, but a Professional Light Infantry regiment would not be as advanced compared to a Conscripted Light Infantry Regiment.
Would this be accurate for most cultures? For example let us imagine central Greeks and Celts during the 279 BC Celtic invasion of Greece.

I'd argue that Greek 'citizen' heavy infantry did not seem to have such a great edge over 'unprofessional' Celtic warriors. On the other hand, the 'professional' Cretean mercenary archer seems to have had a clear edge over any 'unprofessional' archer, including the celtic archers.

So does the heavy vs light infantry proficiency that you suggest make sense across all cultures and regions of the era? I would say no.

Citizens provide a small amount of manpower exclusively for the professional pool and Tribesmen and Slaves provide some manpower exclusively for the conscript pool.
Where do we draw the line between them? To me it seems far less clear cut and the period provides numerous "shades of grey".

Sure, full Roman citizens would be by your term 'professional', while say conscripted Kappadokian natives in a Lysimachid army would be 'unprofessional'.

What about Kleruchoi Ptolemaic phalangites? In one sense, they are trained to fight in a tight, highly specialized sarissophoroi formation, so they should be 'professionals', yet they do not have any political rights to speak of. Egypt is a de-facto absolute monarchy. The mounted hetairoi might have some stake in the state, but the foot phalanx does not. Would they be 'professional' or 'not' in your system?

Roman cavaly vs say Sarmatian noble cavalry. An average Sarmatian would spend a much greater percentage of his life in a saddle than a roman equite. He would learn things as a little boy and warfare would be his main, lifelong profession in addition to keeping his herds (which require much of the same horsemanship skills as warfare). Unless he is of the noble elite, then he has people to do the shepherding for him and he concentrates only on warfare. So from a view of skill, the Sarmatian noblemen is a much more proficient and 'professional' cavalryman than a Roman Equite. So would this make him 'professional' in your system, despite being? What about the Equite?

What about Germanic tribes? You have nobles of various levels, then the free-men, then the half-free (lit) and then you have the slaves. Each category has a lower political power and lower 'stake' in the state than the next category. Would all be 'unprofessional' in your system?

Back to Romans. We have Roman Citizens, then Latins, then Italian allies... citizenship is being handed out over a large period of time and in steps. Where do we draw the line? Are Latins before the social war 'citizens', or not?

City Greeks in great hellenistic empires, say the Seleucid monarchy. They are citizens of their specific polis, but do not have politicla power on the level of the empire. So they have a stake in their city, but little to none stake in the empire. Ar ethey 'professional' in your system?

Lastly mercenaries, especially highly specialized ones like the cretean archers or balearic slingers. Common sense would suggest they are 'professional', yet none of them are really citizens.

1): Balance – this would allow for the potential of larger military bonuses to the historical powerhouses of the period without making it innate: meaning that, unlike in EU4, you wouldn’t always be at a -20% Morale disadvantage because you’re fighting France. With sufficient maneuvering, cunning and careful composition you can still overcome a professional Roman army with ease, and Rome would feel the loss of that manpower. Furthermore, it would provide another money sink and make standing armies more of a threat in peacetime, as they were historically.
Makes sense from a game mechanics perspective. But I would need to see it in practice to see if it gives historiclaly-accurate results.

Rome had the structural ability to call on vast amount of reasonably well-trained recruits. But the training was not that long and thus Rome could replace some really dreadful manpower loss in the Punic wars or against Phyrros.

Now say Macedonian military colonists in Syria? They were arguably more of a "lifelong warrior" than a Roman conscript, but thus more expensive, constituted only a small percentage of the Empire's population and once lost you pretty much had to wait a whole generation to get them back. Would this be represented in your system, even though the military colonist was arguably "less of a citizen" than a full Roman citizen?



I'm not trying to overturn your system. But I would liek to hear mroe about it and how does it fit with the, quite varied, political and social systems of the various states. As well as their specific military traditions.


Isn't this backwards? Citizens should provide the conscripts since they have money to buy their own gear and since they are less likely to be dependent on salary and loot they are also less likely to be interested in a professional career (aside ranking commanders).

I also wouldn't like Romans going around with professional army for most of the period, so the ability to raise professionals should be locked behind high tech (or possibly legal reform and huge wealth, for soft cap), (...)
potential alternative: Citizens and freemen provide a pool of wealthy manpower (though still tilted towards latter), freemen, tribesmen and slaves provide a pool of poor manpower. Without enacting reforms that enable army professionalization, only the wealthy manpower pool can be used to recruit and reinforce certain unit types (heavy infantry, and probably all cavalry outside nomadic tribals). Once you enact reforms that enable professional army, the wealthy manpower pool gets restricted, the poor one expanded, and you can now recruit more expensive professional units from the poor manpower pool.

I prefer your option, especially for Romans. For pretty much the whole Republican Era, Rome fielded mostly conscripts. Well trained conscripts in comparison to conscripts of most other powers. But still conscripts - mostly drafted farmers, not lifelong professional miliaty men.

Hellenistic powers fielded a mix of conscripts, professionals (say most Hetairoi, some infantry), very highly trained semi-professional phalangite footmen (military Greek/Macedonian colonists), tribal levies, mercenaries and local native 'professionals' (ex: nomadic horse archers).
 
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icedt729

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The way a split in manpower could feasibly work is that each pop type provides an amount of manpower: Citizens provide a small amount of manpower exclusively for the professional pool and Tribesmen and Slaves provide some manpower exclusively for the conscript pool. Freemen provide the most manpower: most of it going to the conscript pool, but a lesser amount to the professional pool (not as much as the citizens provide, however).
I marked "disagree" because I think you're using the word "professionalism" to refer to three very different concepts at the same time- the idea of civic versus tribal/feudal conscription, the idea of full-time versus part-time soldiers, and also the idea of rich men serving in the cavalry and the heavy infantry versus poor men serving in the light troops. You're also leaning heavily on some Victor Davis Hanson nonsense about the intangible superiority of citizen-soldiers. I think you need to clarify what exactly you mean by "professional" and then apply that more objectively to the historical cases.
 

Martynios

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I marked "disagree" because I think you're using the word "professionalism" to refer to three very different concepts at the same time- the idea of civic versus tribal/feudal conscription, the idea of full-time versus part-time soldiers, and also the idea of rich men serving in the cavalry and the heavy infantry versus poor men serving in the light troops. You're also leaning heavily on some Victor Davis Hanson nonsense about the intangible superiority of citizen-soldiers. I think you need to clarify what exactly you mean by "professional" and then apply that more objectively to the historical cases.
Agreed. A citizen-soldier is by many definitions the opposite of professional, and OP seems to use professionality as a synonym for quality.
 

mavregade

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I marked "disagree" because I think you're using the word "professionalism" to refer to three very different concepts at the same time- the idea of civic versus tribal/feudal conscription, the idea of full-time versus part-time soldiers, and also the idea of rich men serving in the cavalry and the heavy infantry versus poor men serving in the light troops. You're also leaning heavily on some Victor Davis Hanson nonsense about the intangible superiority of citizen-soldiers. I think you need to clarify what exactly you mean by "professional" and then apply that more objectively to the historical cases.

I liked this post primarily for VDH bashing as I am not a fan of his. The intangibly superior citizen soldiers of Rome may have felt morally superior to Hannibal's hodepodge mercenaries at Cannae, but that didn't do them much good.
 

Grand Historian

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I think you need to clarify what exactly you mean by "professional" and then apply that more objectively to the historical cases.

That's all well and good, but I made it clear in the post that I am more concerned with gameplay.
 

Denkt

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I liked this post primarily for VDH bashing as I am not a fan of his. The intangibly superior citizen soldiers of Rome may have felt morally superior to Hannibal's hodepodge mercenaries at Cannae, but that didn't do them much good.
But Rome won in the end and did win some victories comparable to Cannae against Carthage.
 

Grand Historian

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Sure, after they developed experience and expertise through years of hard losses and campaigning.

Yeah, it's the same mistake as projecting the British Army's success at Waterloo back onto the rest of the Napoleonic War.
 

Denkt

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Sure, after they developed experience and expertise through years of hard losses and campaigning.
Rome had already won a war against Carthage, and outside of Hannibal, Rome did pretty well against Carthage. It also managed to defeat Carthage at sea several times in the first Punic war even with Carthage having a reputation as a naval Power while Rome did not.
 

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Rome had already won a war against Carthage, and outside of Hannibal, Rome did pretty well against Carthage. It also managed to defeat Carthage at sea several times in the first Punic war even with Carthage having a reputation as a naval Power while Rome did not.

But Rome was victorious only because they could afford losing a lot of men at sea, we are talking about a war that lasted 23 years and were a lot of losses on both sides, but because Cartage didn't had so much manpower and had to rely on mercs to fight that war. 23 years of war its not doing pretty well against an enemy.

In fact the roman genius was to slowly adapt to carthaginian maritime technology and then overcome them. But, AFTER 23 years of war, thats its a lot of time.
 

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But Rome was victorious only because they could afford losing a lot of men at sea, we are talking about a war that lasted 23 years and were a lot of losses on both sides, but because Cartage didn't had so much manpower and had to rely on mercs to fight that war. 23 years of war its not doing pretty well against an enemy.

In fact the roman genius was to slowly adapt to carthaginian maritime technology and then overcome them. But, AFTER 23 years of war, thats its a lot of time.

I don’t know if it was a man power issue so much is just the will power issue. At the time, Africa was more urbanized thain Italy was.
 

Kazanov

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I don’t know if it was a man power issue so much is just the will power issue. At the time, Africa was more urbanized thain Italy was.

Yeah, but imagine a fight between two boxers, both of them are strong, but only one of them is capable to get up every time even when receiving heavy blows.

That resilient boxer is Rome. Theres plenty of documentation about that, for example, when the roman faced Pyrrhus of Epirus, they lost a lot of men, but they could replace them...while the greeks not. The same with Hannibal.

Its a mix of lots of manpower and roman culture. Yes. Willpower and Manpower,