Imperator - Development Diary #5 - 25th of June 2018

[Kljunas]

People are suggesting that pops evolve based on every action you take as state, and indeed in general, that points pools be replaced by a system based entirely on your actions. This strikes me as incredibly complex, though YMMV.

The point I was making in my post is that Paradox has to exist in reality, where the AI is as good as they can make it as it is right now. I don't see the AI handling a game like these suggestions, nor do I see it ever achieving a good state of balance. It's beyond Paradox's capabilities for sure.

CK2 doesn't have mana and that's not a problem.

 

[ashbery76]

It's all looking a bit samey and safe.

 

[Ostovar Hossein]

Hi and welcome to the fifth development diary for Imperator! This time we delve into the population mechanics.

The population in the game is divided into population units, or “pop” for short, just like Vicky or Rome1.

Each individual pop has its own religion, culture and happiness . So yes, there are minorities in Imperator!

While there are ways to increase happiness of pops, including ideas, inventions and access to trade-goods, they tend to be less happy if they are not of the same culture-group, or if they belong to a different religion. Happiness impacts two thing on the pop, first of all, a pops happiness directly affects how productive they are. Secondly, low happiness increases unrest in a city.

There are four different types of pops in the game.

• Citizens - They provide research and commerce income. These represent the patricians in Rome, and nobility in monarchies
  
• Freemen - They provide manpower. The plebs of Rome is included in this group.
  
• Tribesmen - These provide a tiny amount of manpower and tax income. These are the barbarians or uncivilized parts of your areas.
  
• Slaves - These provide tax income

So how do you get a more pops in a city?

First of all, there is always a single pop either in growth or decline, depending on the population growth of the city. When this pop is fully grown or totally dead, either a current pop is picked for death, or a new random pop is created that will slowly grow.

Terrain, Civilization value, amount of pops in the city and access to trade-goods impact the growth in a city.

View attachment 382903

Secondly, you can also gain pops through warfare. As you sack cities you will take some of their pops back to your main capital, and your provincial capitals as slaves.

One other aspect of conquest is that when a city formally becomes yours, citizens becomes freemen, and freemen becomes slaves.


If you need more citizens or freemen of your pops, you can always promote pops to a higher class of society, where promoting a slave or tribesmen to freemen currently have a base price of 10 religious power, and promoting a freemen to citizen costs 10 oratory power.

If you permanently want to increase a pops happiness, you can always spend some religious power to convert them to the state religion.

We’ll talk a fair bit more about pops in the development diary about colonisation and internal movement later on.

Of course, any modder can define how many pop-types they want and what they are used for freely. Here is an example of the freemen poptype.

freemen = {
    local_manpower = 0.05
    can_promote_to = citizen
    demotes_to = slaves
}

Another cool modding aspect is that everything that costs power, manpower or money use the same “price”-mechanic internally, so you can base everything on money if you so desire. Here is a few scripts from the price database.

freemen_promotion = {
    religious = 10
}

assault = {
    manpower = 2
    military = 20
}

send_gift = {
    scaled_gold = 0.2
}

Next week, we’ll be back looking at the economy system.

hmm how will you include Zoroastrianism into the game? the slave had no place in Zoroastrianism does that mean that slave pop will be 0 and on default you get punished to be part of that religion? due to not having as much income?

 

[Dmitrius]

As a huge Stellaris fan, warts and all, I'm a little concerned that the mistakes made with the time system are being repeated here. I think initially this system makes sense, however how will it scale? I can barely suffer more than a handful of planets currently due to repetitive micro. I can't imagine manually upgrading pop's once I break out of Italia is going to much fun...

Huge handfuls of salt obviously, I haven't played the game and neither has anyone commenting so far, but alarms are ringing for me. That said I have faith that Johan, having created some of the greatest strategy game mechanics I've ever used, knows what he's doing.

 

[Gunthah]

Though I'm not a fan of some of the mechanics of the new pop system, the issue with the class division scheme is being blown out of proportion. It seems like it's basically a division between the privileged and rich, the working masses, slaves and people outside the reach of a civilised state. The functions of each seem like a perfectly fine abstraction to fit the gameplay.

The names of the classes are generic period-appropriate names for this sort of stratified society. If people think that patrician, plebeian, slave would be better they can just right it in in about a minute, but these names wouldn't fit the rest of polities in the game. And frankly, you'd have to throw in way more than one or two more new types of pop to represent the Roman society of the time with all its of legal, political and economic complexities.

 

[Ostovar Hossein]

That’s pretty historical... but there is also trade income so some places like Athens might be able to build a trade empire instead

as far as I know Persia didn't run on slavery so what goes for Romans and Greeks does not go for everyone...
The basis of agriculture was the labor of free farmers and tenants and in handicrafts the labor of free artisans, whose occupation was usually inherited within the family, likewise predominated. In these countries of the empire, slavery had already undergone important changes by the time of the emergence of the Persian state. Debt slavery was no longer common. The practice of pledging one’s person for debt, not to mention self-sale, had totally disappeared by the Persian period. In the case of nonpayment of a debt by the appointed deadline, the creditor could turn the children of the debtor into slaves. A creditor could arrest an insolvent debtor and confine him to debtor’s prison. However, the creditor could not sell a debtor into slavery to a third party. Usually the debtor paid off the loan by free work for the creditor, thereby retaining his freedom.

 

[Khannis]

as far as I know Persia didn't run on slavery so what goes for Romans and Greeks does not go for everyone...
The basis of agriculture was the labor of free farmers and tenants and in handicrafts the labor of free artisans, whose occupation was usually inherited within the family, likewise predominated. In these countries of the empire, slavery had already undergone important changes by the time of the emergence of the Persian state. Debt slavery was no longer common. The practice of pledging one’s person for debt, not to mention self-sale, had totally disappeared by the Persian period. In the case of nonpayment of a debt by the appointed deadline, the creditor could turn the children of the debtor into slaves. A creditor could arrest an insolvent debtor and confine him to debtor’s prison. However, the creditor could not sell a debtor into slavery to a third party. Usually the debtor paid off the loan by free work for the creditor, thereby retaining his freedom.

Interesting, what about serfdom? I was under the impression that it played a major part in the economy as well...

 

[ikki]

oh dear... clickfest terrors... individually uppgraydding 40 pops each in 500 cities.
I hits quit-button.

 

[Rhaegar1]

So in a probably vain attempt to change the subject away from the raging fire that is the pop discussions we've all had so much fun with today.

Does anyone know what the different icons left of the tooltip mean? At the top there's the city trade good and terrain and below that the civilisation value of the city although we don't exactly know what that all does. The fortress icon probably shows the fortress level but what exactly does the shield with axes and the 3 soldiers give for information? In the teaser from yesterday it showed Rome having a 1000 soldiers but I have no idea what it does.

 

[Ostovar Hossein]

Interesting, what about serfdom? I was under the impression that it played a major part in the economy as well...

From what I gathered they payed regardless who they were. I know later on during Sassanian ruled differ from achaemenid persian empire but this game is close to Achaemenid time they payed the " slaves " there was no free labor like other empires. anyhow I am not sure about serfdom I know they had skilled workers who made building and roads. Also there are times in history of Persia where they actually freed people like Persian conquest of Babylon where they actually freed enslaved people and sent them back to their homes.

 

[grandad1982]

So the conclusion I have come to after reading this and a few other threads is that I'm going to stop reading the threads. There is some pretty ridiculous behaviour here and frankly it negates some of the reasonable and constructive criticism.

Instead of throwing toys out of prams just relax, wait for the final product or move on with your life if the choices the devs make upset you so much.

 

[Caligula Caesar]

It wasn't. Well I mean past the point where Romans were pretty much just violent swamp hicks bickering with themselves (which you could argue was never I guess XD). It's based on the latin tribes before they were unified. But by the point there was a city of Rome ruled by kings and then the early

You are not really correct. Kings do not contradict there being a tribal structure, in fact Gaul had plenty of them. In Caesar's day it even had Assemblies and the like. The only sensible way of understanding "tribe" in the ancient world is imo along the lines of 'a predominantly rural population'.

 

[Dmitrius]

So the conclusion I have come to after reading this and a few other threads is that I'm going to stop reading the threads. There is some pretty ridiculous behaviour here and frankly it negates some of the reasonable and constructive criticism.

Instead of throwing toys out of prams just relax, wait for the final product or move on with your life if the choices the devs make upset you so much.

I think that's just a vocal minority, most people are simply passionate about a game they want to succeed in reaching its full potential.

 

[stratigo]

You are not really correct. Kings do not contradict there being a tribal structure, in fact Gaul had plenty of them. In Caesar's day it even had Assemblies and the like. The only sensible way of understanding "tribe" in the ancient world is imo along the lines of 'a predominantly rural population'.

That’s not what I said. When one says the Roman Kings, they are talking a specific period of Roman history post date the unification of the Roman latins and the establishment of a city in rome

 

[alvaro]

It was dark because of a lack of sources. Not a moral judgement. That is a lay person's misunderstanding of the term dark.

Is charlemagne's empire notably more barbaric, less cultured than the western roman empire? No.

Yes
The only place entitled to be called civilized during the dark and obscure age was Rome (what the barbaric west called Byzantium)
Commerce, culture production, urban development, infrastructure, everything was a big pile of darkage in the west compared with what was left of Rome.

 

[Caligula Caesar]

As another poster has noted, the patrician/plebeian that a lot of people keep touting doesn't make sense. By the time of the Gracchi brothers 2/3 of the senate were plebeian and with the exception of the Cornelii Scipiones, the richest and most powerful families were plebeian.

That being said, I really wish Paradox would implement at least some of the small changes that could help with immersion/accuracy. As so many people have pointed out, by "citizen," Paradox really means "nobles," or, the descriptor in MEIOU: "upper class." As for manual pop promotion a la Victoria I... I will reserve judgment until the game comes out.

Yes, they should go probably go for "nobles", "citizens" (commoners), "non-citizens" (freedmen, foreigners), "slaves" and then it will make more sense. One could also try and find a way of making it nobles vs "the people".

 

[Caligula Caesar]

That’s not what I said. When one says the Roman Kings, they are talking a specific period of Roman history post date the unification of the Roman latins and the establishment of a city in rome

Maybe I misunderstood you. Still, there being a city in Rome doesn't mean the rural areas didn't have fairly tribal structures, at least till the 4th century BC.

 

[Dmitrius]

Though I'm not a fan of some of the mechanics of the new pop system, the issue with the class division scheme is being blown out of proportion. It seems like it's basically a division between the privileged and rich, the working masses, slaves and people outside the reach of a civilised state. The functions of each seem like a perfectly fine abstraction to fit the gameplay.

The names of the classes are generic period-appropriate names for this sort of stratified society. If people think that patrician, plebeian, slave would be better they can just right it in in about a minute, but these names wouldn't fit the rest of polities in the game. And frankly, you'd have to throw in way more than one or two more new types of pop to represent the Roman society of the time with all its of legal, political and economic complexities.

Agreed, and I expect DLC/updates will develop the complexity of individual states over time, much like almost every other PS grand strategy title.

 

[stratigo]

Maybe I misunderstood you. Still, there being a city in Rome doesn't mean the rural areas didn't have fairly tribal structures, at least till the 4th century BC.

The term tribe doesn’t mean anything. It evokes an organization that either very few societies represented, or that almost all of them did in rural regions. All depending on what you mean by tribe. Are you talking an overall polity, or just a type of rural organization

 

[Caligula Caesar]

Though I'm not a fan of some of the mechanics of the new pop system, the issue with the class division scheme is being blown out of proportion. It seems like it's basically a division between the privileged and rich, the working masses, slaves and people outside the reach of a civilised state. The functions of each seem like a perfectly fine abstraction to fit the gameplay.

The names of the classes are generic period-appropriate names for this sort of stratified society. If people think that patrician, plebeian, slave would be better they can just right it in in about a minute, but these names wouldn't fit the rest of polities in the game. And frankly, you'd have to throw in way more than one or two more new types of pop to represent the Roman society of the time with all its of legal, political and economic complexities.

Well I would agree, and I am more concerned about how it will play out, but frankly making "citizen" = "noble" is extremely misleading, to the degree of being a crime against historical accuracy (sorry, I speak as someone who was the team leader of a mod called Rome Total Realism, I care about stuff like that ). If I am to play this game, I will have to mod that right, luckily it will only take 2 minutes because PDX makes modding so easy

The term tribe doesn’t mean anything. It evokes an organization that either very few societies represented, or that almost all of them did in rural regions. All depending on what you mean by tribe. Are you talking an overall polity, or just a type of rural organization

Well the original post I was referring to was someone saying there were no tribal pops in Italy in 305 BC. I was just saying this wasn't a terrible stretch.