Imperator - Development Diary #5 - 25th of June 2018

[mergele]

I for one think this seems like a perfectly solid system for a potentially good game.

I am on the frontlines rooting for Vicky3, but I don't want them to shoehorn bad/inferior Vicky into Imperator. Have it do the things that are best suited for it's own gameplay.

 

[Denkt]

RIP POPs

They look more developed than EU: Rome.

Own religion, Culture and happiness.

 

[stratigo]

@Johan would there be any way to hypothetically turn an Etruscan barbarian into a roman freeman?

will freemen generate no income at all?

why are there free barbarians in rome?

for the love of god... tell me those barbarians at least aren't culturally roman.

Actually the tribes should represent groups like the proletariat in Roman society. Romans too poor to be eligible for service

im not at all concerned about mana. i just think there are some inconsistencies. i dont care if i have to spend mana to convert the cultures of my pops, i just want it to be possible in some way. literally any way. i dont want Etruscan pops toward the end of my game.

and i want the pop types to make sense too. i want 'freemen' to provide a little income in addition to manpower, and 'citizens' to provide a little manpower. ESPECIALLY since the startdate on the game is prior to the Marian reforms, and the pop system must remain consistent across multiple cultures. freemen not providing income outside of Rome is especially absurd.

redefine the pop types to be patricians/urban plebs/pastorals/slaves and ill be happy. or make it patricians/plebs/tribesmen/slaves and have plebs just be better tribesmen. but having them just produce manpower is silly.

Your idea of what patricians and plebs are is extremely historically inaccurate

Would additional pop types representing the various roman classes (Plebs, Patrcians and Equite) be adding a bit too much micro, or would it be granting rome extra power due to unique classes, where other nations wouldn't have the same amount of access to them i.e. barbarians.

This also raises the question of Zorastrian nations, they are not allowed slaves at all, so how will that be dealt with?

Using patrician, pleb, and equites is the worst idea ever. Equites is an actual Ordo. For the love of god people. If you want to do this at least use the right terms. An equites in the period of the game would be of exactly the same class as the senatorial class (the same money requirements) with the only difference being in the senatorial class required relation to a senator. Then you had the five military classes (whose specific name escapes me beyond literally first through fifth) and finally The proletariat which were romans without property

 

[DukeOfValois1]

They look more developed than EU: Rome.

Own religion, Culture and happiness.

That's not saying much.

 

[Denkt]

That's not saying much.

So they took EU: Rome pop system and developed on it which is very nice to see.

 

[Denkt]

@Johan you say that different religions will cause unrest but that's not very historical for this time period. The Romans had many different cultures and religions in their empire and it rarely ever caused unrest with the exception of the Jewish Wars. I feel like only monotheistic religions should have unrest when ruled by any polytheistic religions. I want to create a historical multicultural and multi religious Roman empire and I feel like this prevents historical things from happening for no reason.

The unrest may be minor and there may be other ways to make other religions and Cultures more happy but that is for future DDs.

 

[DukeOfValois1]

So they took EU: Rome pop system and developed on it which is very nice to see.

It's like the evolutionary equivalent of a fish becoming slightly bigger over a million years...but then going extinct because it doesn't have the correct adaption for the modern era.

 

[Merrivale]

The message I get from these lines is "Imagine a game in 2018 that isn't build for filthy casuals" and "The AI guys are not doing quite well"
I mean just look at the lack of coordination between "new" systems and the AI in HoI4. They introduced chain of command and the AI shat its pants.
Please do tell what kind of overly complex systems are people here suggesting though.

People are suggesting that pops evolve based on every action you take as state, and indeed in general, that points pools be replaced by a system based entirely on your actions. This strikes me as incredibly complex, though YMMV.

The point I was making in my post is that Paradox has to exist in reality, where the AI is as good as they can make it as it is right now. I don't see the AI handling a game like these suggestions, nor do I see it ever achieving a good state of balance. It's beyond Paradox's capabilities for sure.

 

[Denkt]

It's like the evolutionary equivalent of a fish becoming slightly bigger over a million years...but then going extinct because it doesn't have the correct adaption for the modern era.

Why massively change stuff that worked Before?

 

[DukeOfValois1]

Why massively change stuff that worked Before?

Because it didn't. EU: Rome is still one of Paradox's worst entries.

Are you Todd Howard?

 

[Denkt]

Because it didn't. EU: Rome is still one of Paradox's worst entries.

It is not and if it was it is not because of pops.

 

[Merrivale]

1. It's 2018, and we're asking for depth, not the entire Roman consitution. I think computers can handle it.
2. Not a Phd, but something beyond a High School Diploma
3. Such mods shouldn't have to be made except if they're mods that want to have the minutiae of the roman constitution. Historical mods should not have to cover stuff that needs to be done by the devs. It's pathetic.

Just of out curiosity, which PDS games do you play unmodded? I see you own most of them.

 

[DukeOfValois1]

Just of out curiosity, which PDS games do you play unmodded? I see you own most of them.

I always play at least 3-4 campaigns unmodded, just to give the game itself a chance, before having to move into mods because of boredom and lack of depth.

 

[DukeOfValois1]

It is not and if it was it is not because of pops.

Oh darling, it is. The POPS aren't the only reason though. They were just part of the problem.

 

[hashinshin]

Guys we need to make this game more successful. To do that we need to make it more like paradox's greatest games!

No not EU4. No not CK2. No not Stellaris.

VICTORIA 2! That game that almost a dozen people have heard about!

 

[Denkt]

Guys we need to make this game more successful. To do that we need to make it more like paradox's greatest games!

No not EU4. No not CK2. No not Stellaris.

VICTORIA 2! That game that almost a dozen people have heard about!

The balance between CK2 and EU4/Vic2 should remain in Rome2. Rome was a fantastic mix between CK1(characters), EU3 (diplomacy, and war) and Vic1(parties, provinces system and population dynamic) and its own feature like barbaric migration and the best civil wars in Paradox games - @Leon_Aditzu

Oh darling, it is. The POPS aren't the only reason though. They were just part of the problem.

No it is not. ​

 

[DukeOfValois1]

Guys we need to make this game more successful. To do that we need to make it more like paradox's greatest games!

No not EU4. No not CK2. No not Stellaris.

VICTORIA 2! That game that almost a dozen people have heard about!

Look, I don't even like Vic 2 as much as say CK2...but what is with you? Christ, dude, chill.

 

[Merrivale]

I always play at least 3-4 campaigns unmodded, just to give the game itself a chance, before having to move into mods because of boredom and lack of depth.

So I take it the answer is none of them. I'm amazed at your optimism, thinking that after releasing unsatisfactory HOI III and HOI IV, Vicky II, EU4, CKII, and Stellaris that you thought Imperator was going to buck the trend. At this point I think it's pretty safe to say that you do not like PDS games, you like playing the mods, but not the games. So it would be a big surprise if you like vanilla Imperator.

I'd also add that this system seems to be working pretty well, I take it you enjoy playing the modded games by the number of DLCs you've got. So it's not like this is a terrible state of affairs.

 

[thewolf66]

People are suggesting that pops evolve based on every action you take as state, and indeed in general, that points pools be replaced by a system based entirely on your actions. This strikes me as incredibly complex, though YMMV.

The point I was making in my post is that Paradox has to exist in reality, where the AI is as good as they can make it as it is right now. I don't see the AI handling a game like these suggestions, nor do I see it ever achieving a good state of balance. It's beyond Paradox's capabilities for sure.

I kinda agree here. It's harder to design a more realistic system for sure, and if you try to simulate everything on 100% it becomes too bloated to be playable. Still I see a design based mainly around power as an inherently inferior system.

 

[Gamadril]

It seems that pop system is taken from Rome game without any change. Indeed, why change anything if the game sells well?