The Sunderban Forest. An extremely dense jungle filled with snakes, tigers, marshes etc.
Imperator - Development Diary - 4th of March 2019
- Thread starter Trin Tragula
- Start date
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Because people still traveled through it and there were small tribes, villages and communities. Maybe even petty kingdoms. So there will be pops living there in those provinces for you to civilize, just not proper kingdoms like the Mauryans or whatever. It's basically like that gap between the low countries and Germania, or central europe in the Imperator map. Got pops and people traveled through it, but no noteworthy kingdoms.
That could be said about northern Ukraine, Eastern Poland, the Baltics, etc. too.
And if we don't know who lived there/they weren't important enough to include as a separate entity then I'm not really sure why the area is in given it's on the outer edge of the map. Germania makes sense in that there both were Germanic tribes migrating in, but also, and this might be the most important argument for a full Germania, the Romans could well have held onto Germania had they won Teutonburg. As such it both serves a purpose and also is an area where major countries tried to expand into and feasibly could have succeeded. Plus it isn't dense jungle.
Since this area is dense jungle according to you then including it seems weird unless it played an important role later, but from what I get from your post then it didn't.
Now, note, I'm not against having more colonisable cities. I'm just trying to figure out how this area is more special than say northern Ukraine, Eastern Poland, or the Baltics.
Glad to see a change in the size of the country levels. The number of great powers in the dev clash was quite silly.
I'm not sure how the exact geographic looked or at least I can't describe it, but the main estuaries were more eastwards than in the early modern era and today.
Something like this:
https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpres...0e768&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e768&brand=ucpress
Also maybe technology, political situation and other climactic factors made it a more fringe territory, kinda like Ukraine, why would it have so low density considering how much food you can potentially produce?
I like the restrictions and the great power things, but..
If I cannot have smaller states as allies, then how will the game reflect smaller nations assisting me in war?
ROME historically used dozens of tribes to help fight in their wars, as auxiliary or allies, these tribes were not vassals of Rome (or at least not in a EU4) kind of way.
They Bullied their neighbors into submission, and EU4 doesn't have a real good way of showing this either you attack and vassalize, or you suck up to someone and vassalize.
In historic it was More like a Tributary from eu4, who would provide Rome with Soldiers.
I'm curious now how you will reflect this.
If I cannot have smaller states as allies, then how will the game reflect smaller nations assisting me in war?
ROME historically used dozens of tribes to help fight in their wars, as auxiliary or allies, these tribes were not vassals of Rome (or at least not in a EU4) kind of way.
They Bullied their neighbors into submission, and EU4 doesn't have a real good way of showing this either you attack and vassalize, or you suck up to someone and vassalize.
In historic it was More like a Tributary from eu4, who would provide Rome with Soldiers.
I'm curious now how you will reflect this.
But the lower Ganges delta did have a kingdom there around this time. It was the Vanga kingdom. And it seemingly lasted until the Mauryans annexed them?
.png "Mahajanapadas_(c._500_BCE).png")
This was long before the Mauryans. It's like 200 years before game start IIRC
Not to mention Vanga on that map is also in western bengal, not the eastern part we’ve left uncolonized
The alliance changes are good and arguably overdue, and India looks like an interesting location to play in as well. Although I've always thought the Indian sub-continent was just kinda there in CK2 for example if you weren't playing as one of the Indian factions or at least someone who was near them(persians, tibet, certain steppe factions, etc), Will this change at all in Imperator?Hello and welcome to another development Diary about Imperator:Rome!
Today I will be talking about some changes we have done to the alliance system since it was last described in a developer diary, as well as the Military Traditions and political geography of India.
Alliance Changes
As we described in previous development diaries, calling allies to arms in Imperator has for a long time transferred the war leadership to a stronger party. There were a few different reasons for this, most importantly being able to drag in a major power to use them offensively as a small country is not necessarily realistic or balanced. There are risks with going to war even if you win that the greater country opens themselves up to, such as the risk of occupation and enslavement of its population.
Problematically however the transfer of war leadership often resulted in situations that were hard to predict or read. Small conflicts would frequently spiral into huge ones, with the biggest empires getting involved in situations where they would have little gain from doing so, while calling in all their allies.
The old system for transferring war leadership has therefore now been scrapped, with a number of changes to how alliances work introduced instead. Most prominently an alliance is now a contract of military cooperation between equals, whereas other types of treaties will be used for situations where a greater power defends a lesser one.
Transfer of War LeadershipWar leadership will now only transfer to an overlord when a subject is attacked, or from a guaranteed country when its strongest (most populous) protector is called. Once war leadership has transferred, the new warleader can call in their subjects and allies.
View attachment 458196
While allies will still help out in wars they will never take over leadership of the war from you.
Alliances & GuaranteesAlliances can now only exist between countries of the same rank and Great Powers can never have any allies at all (instead they will have to defend themselves and rely on guarantees or subject relationships to protect others).
View attachment 458193
When your country changes rank through acquiring more cities, all existing alliances will be transformed into guarantees (there will also be a confirmation dialogue if demanding land in peace would result in a rank change).
A guarantee is now no longer just a casus belli but will instead lead to a call to arms when the guaranteed country is attacked, and it now also costs 1 diplomatic relations slot.
With these changes we hope to better reflect the drastically different types of relationship states could be in during this era, where a power may well act to defend, weaker states, but never as an equal (Rome itself is a good example of this type of diplomacy). With the possibility of more advanced cooperation between powers of more comparable strength.
Country RanksAllong with the changes to alliances we have changed the country rank definitions a bit. In particular we have increased the number of cities needed to be a Great Power (and therefore without allies) significantly, meaning there are no longer any Great Powers at the start of the game (though the Maurya Empire is close).
View attachment 458197
Country Ranks:Today it is time to visit the subcontinent of India, separated from Persia and the Middle East by mountain ranges and deserts. This is also as far east as the map will go, it extends all the way to the Arakanese mountains and the natural border between India and Burma. India sticks out compared to all other regions we have been through in a number of ways, it is a region of vast fertile plains, high mountain ranges and deep jungles (a terrain type rarely found outside of India). India is also home to a very large part of the world population, even in 304 BCE, and the countries here generally have far larger resources than one might expect from their size.
- Migrant Horde: No Cities
- City State: 1 City
- Local Power: Between 2 and 24 cities.
- Regional Power: Between 25 and 99 Cities.
- Major Power: Between 100 and 499 Cities.
- Great Power: 500 or more Cities.
Politically India has in history often been as diverse as Europe, with a number of different states fighting for hegemony, but at times it has also been united under great empires. Alexander the great, in his day, invaded even this region and conquered most of the Indus valley, leaving a number of Greek satraps and Greek settlements behind. In 304 BCE the subcontinent has however just watched the rise of the Maurya Empire under Chandragupta Maurya, who have risen from relative obscurity in the southern Indus Valley to defeating both the Nanda Empire, and the remaining Greek Satraps in India.
Religiously India at the start of our game is dominantly hindu but with Jainism and Buddhism both on the rise. Buddhism especially would come to spread from India in all directions, eventually becoming a major world religion.
In the last few diaries I have noted that there are numerous problems in finding sources and references for history of this era. India is far more well known than Germania or Scandinavia at our start, especially the part that was relevant to the Mauryas or the Greeks and their emissaries (some who visited the Mauryan capital in modern Bihar). India is also a very big place however, and there are still many parts of it that where we have had to extrapolate later day information.
Starting Tradition - Rathas: Allows Chariots
“Maurya Path”
*Coastal Path*
- Versatile Infantry: Archers Offense +15%
- Descendants of Airavata: War Elephant Defense +15%
- Warhost of the Empire: Light Infantry Morale +10%
- Natural Pathfinders: War Elephant Jungle & Forest Combat Ability +15%
- Dedicated Archers: Archers Discipline +10%
- Homeland of our Fathers: Heavy Infantry Forest & Jungle +15%, Light Infantry Forest & Jungle +15%
- Integrating the Tribes: National Tribesman Happiness +20%
- Finisher Bonus - The Bureaucracy of War: Monthly War Exhaustion -0.02
*Noble Path*
- Natural Harbors: Galley Cost -15%
- The Vyuha System: Archers Morale +10%
- Masters of the Sea: Trireme Morale +10%
- Plunder!: Allows Raid Ports Ability, +20% Enslavement Efficiency
- Flexible Divisions: Morale of Armies +10%
- City of the World's Desire: Fort Defence +15%
- State Artisan: Archers & Chariot Cost -10%
- Finisher Bonus - The 'Diplomatic' Fleet: Trireme Discipline +10%
- Fit for a King: Chariot Defense +15%
- Trained to Kill: War Elephant Discipline +10%
- Armored Archers: Archers Defense +15%
- Padma Vyuha: Allows Padma Vyuha Tactic
- Imported Horses: Chariot Discipline +10%
- Elephantine Abundance: War Elephant Cost -15%
- Exotic Soldiers: Mercenary Maintenance -15%
- Finisher Bonus - Striding Besides Giants: War Elephant Morale +10%
Northern IndiaView attachment 458179
View attachment 458178
(Indus Valley)
View attachment 458181
(Western Coast, the Maru Desert and the Avanti region)
(Gangetic Plain)View attachment 458180
(Bengal)Northern India is dominated by the Indo-Gangetic Plain, much like the Nile delta this is a very densely populated and fertile part of the world. Unlike the Nile Delta however it is far greater in size. The plain itself has been the heartland of a number of empires throughout history and at our start it is dominated by the newly formed Maurya Empire, which has just recently established its capital in Pataliputra, in north eastern India.
The Indus region in the far west has for a period of time been under Greek rule, after having been conquered by Alexander the Great and then handed over to a number of successive Greek Satraps. It is now theoretically part of the Seleucid Empire, but in practice these satrapies are under Mauryan control. The Seleucid and Mauryan empires have been in continuous conflict for a number of years now, ever since Seleucus and his son Antiochus moved east to secure Bactria, and the eastern Persian Satrapies.
As our game starts the Seleucid-Mauryan conflict is about to end, with the Seleucids handing over control over large parts of the eastern parts of their empire in return for a truce with the Indian conquerors and a great number of War Elephants to use in their wars with the other Greek Successors.
Starting Countries:
- Maurya: In time the Maurya empire would come to unite almost the entire subcontinent, and be remembered as one of the more successful pan-indian Empires. In 304 BCE however this is a very young kingdom, not unlike the big Diadoch monarchies in the west. The ruler, Chandragupta Maurya, would in time build a state different from previous ones in this region. It is hard to overstate the influence of the Maurya empire, not just because of the amount of land it came to include but also due to the conversion and missionary work of Ashoka for the Buddhist faith.
- Atavia: Not all parts of the Maurya empire is ruled directly by Chandragupta’s governors. The tribal forest regions were generally kept in a more loose relationship as a subject state. Atavia is a settled tribe (previously known as a Tribal Kingdom), and starts as a Tributary of Maurya.
- Kamarupa: In the far east, in the jungles of the Brahmaputra alley, the tribal state of Kamarupa remains independent from the Maurya empire.
- Kalinga: Independent kingdom in modern Orissa. Kalinga famously resisted Maurya rule until it fell to Ashoka in a very bloody and savage military campaign. So much so that Ashoka is said to have sworn forsworn excessive violence and embracing Buddhism.
- Karusa: Tribal state in the jungles of Eastern India. Not much is known about this region at the start of the game in history.
- Indravana: Another tribal states in the hilly jungles of modern Orissa and Chattisgarh.
- Bhoja: Tribal state in the Nimar valley, western India.
- Rathika: Tribal state on the north western coast of India. Right on the border of the Maurya empire.
Southern IndiaWhile most states in the south are not as well documented as northern India the Indian ocean ports here would become known to Roman and Greek traders, this region is also home to some of the oldest dynasties in the history of India, such as the Pandya’s, Cholas and Cheras.
View attachment 458182
(Southern Tip of India, Sri Lanka and the Tamil Country)
View attachment 458184
(Central India)
Especially the island of Sri Lanka and the Tamil country in the far south west are very populous regions however and while not as strong as the Maurya empire in the north they are owned by powers with the potential to grow their influence in 304 BCE.
Starting Countries:
View attachment 458185
- Ashmaka: Weak Tribal State in the dry Deccani upland, just south of the Maurya border. Would be conquered by the successors of Chandragupta, who would also extend the road network south through this region.
- Pitnika: Coastal kingdom controlling parts of the Western Ghats and the Konkan coastline.
- Kuntala: Tribal state in the central South Indian upland, eventually conquered by the Mauryas.
- Andhra: The tribal Andhra state centered on the Krishna river rule parts of the eastern Indian coastline, a region that still bears their name.
- Mahisha: Tribal state of which we know very little in the South Indian interior plateau. Conquered by the Maurya empire within a generation of our start.
- Alupa: Long lived Tribal State on the coast of Karnataka, ruled by the Alupa Dynasty. Would in time survive many of the great empires of India, including the Mauryas, far into the middle ages.
- Satiyaputa: Tribal state in the Mysore plateau and the western Ghats.
- Chera: One of the most important kingdoms of the far south, the Chera control a number of the Indian Ocean trade ports, that would remain commercial entrepots up until present day.
- Ay: Small kingdom on the tip of the Indian subcontinent, in modern Kerala. The Ay dynasty, is one of the oldest known lineages of its region.
- Chola: Autocratic Monarchy on the eastern coast of southern india (later known as Coromandel, a name based on what they called their realm). The Cholas would historically create their own overseas empire but at our start they are just a local power in this region.
- Pandya: Autocratic Monarchy in the rich Tamil country ruled by a dynasty that considers itself already quite ancient by 304 BCE (and in fact they are also playable both in Europa Universalis 4 and Crusader Kings 2).
- Anuradhapura: Kingdom ruling the island of Sri Lanka at our start, based around the great city of Anarudhapura. The kingdom would in time become greatly influenced by the spread of the Buddhist faith, an influence that remains to this day.
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A previous Dev Diary said there are only 7 Militiary Traditions. What traditions do the Tibetan states adopt? Chariots don't seem very practical high up in the mountains and with what little I've gathered on Tibet, they were known for their heavy infantry and heavy cavalry.
Is the marriage between Seleucus' daughter and Chandragupta going to be represented in some way?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid–Mauryan_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid–Mauryan_war
