Imperator - Development Diary - 25th of March 2019

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Tavior

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Ok first off some interest changes to armies tactics. Although it leave me confused as to if you used the same fort ZoC system or allegedly made change to it from last dev diary?

Reading the EU4 forum for the last 5 years about "the ZoC system is broken".

Reading the replies I came across this... Really? I seem to recall that the ZoC was being changed?

Hello and welcome to this weeks development diary for Imperator: Rome!

Today's diary will cover a variety of things, from some changes done to Mercenaries, Forts, Tribes and Tribal Retinues, to the Achievements and Formable countries the game will ship with.

Zones of Control
As described in earlier diaries Imperator will have a fort and Zone of Control system that is familiar to anyone who has played EU4. In short a fort will exert a Zone of Control over all surrounding cities and obstruct movement for enemy troops.
The expansive map of Imperator means that it can at times be a bit of work to take control of cities as you advance into enemy territory. This is especially a problem when the local military victory is already won, the enemy troops expelled, and local fortifications are under your control.
To facilitate the takeover when you have already, de facto, won we have made forts able to automatically start taking control over adjacent cities, even in enemy territory.
This means that once a fort has fallen you can save your armies the work of controlling cities in the fort's Zone of Control. Fort control also works across national borders, meaning border forts will automatically start taking control over any adjacent enemy cities that are not protected by enemy forts or troops.
In addition to all of the above you are now required to control all forts in a province, as well as the province capital, before you can demand that province in a peace negotiation.

and

What will the ZoC system look like though? Certainly you guys wouldn't think of just implementing EU4's mess of fort rules unchanged, right? That system is sloppy and bug prone, and it offers more frustration than interesting gameplay.
Of course not.

Imperators is far more simpler in how it works, so its clearer to the player.

Then you go and try to fix one of the symptom of the broken EU 4 fort ZoC system...

I am now reconsidering if I should keep my pre-order or not.
 

Borgratz

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Reading the EU4 forum for the last 5 years about "the ZoC system is broken".

Aren't those mainly about the Air sneaking through ZoC without shattering first and then sieging down your undefended land?

I've rarely seen complaints about getting stuck in ZoC. But I assume I read the forum less often than you do.

This change seems to make eu4s already frustrating fighting to chasing ratio worse while not really fixing Ai ninja tactics.

Trapping an army is a really rewarding moment (and a very important part of ancient warfare) so it's really something worth keeping, if there is no game breaking reason to scrap it.

Also, remember when Crassus nearly got caught in Persia, but then he clicked shattered retreat and came back home? That was really an epic story!
 

Lord Hoosier

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Will this be a toggle-able choice like in CKII?

Also, will we get more region overviews next week? Those are what I really look forward to each week. I really want to see Illyria and Dacia get focused on. Other than them, the only other region, I think, are Britannia and Bactria/Tibet.
 

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New Tactics system is exactly what I wanted. I had planned on modding tactics first thing, now it looks better than what I could have managed (especially given that the effects show up nicely in the UI). Now I need a new target.
 

Denkt

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Maybe you can make it so that changing tactics reduce morale so you can not switch tactics as soon as the enemy tactic is known.
Like a reorginization penalty.
 

MohawkWolfo98

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Credit where credit is due. Thank you so much devs for listening to players concerns regarding ZoC and changes to the combat system. It seems like a much better system and I’ll be curious to see how it plays out :)
 

starchitect

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honestly my problems with ZOC was never getting stuck by it... but by the AI's uncanny ability to circumvent everything I had worked for with magic and misdirection.
 

Tue_p3

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With the retreating system, will stackwiping be possible or not? Is it possible to choose destinations for the retreating army, and or modify it on route?

Personally I don't like the stackwiping in eu4, but I know others love it
 

Nicolas-

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I've rarely seen complaints about getting stuck in ZoC. But I assume I read the forum less often than you do.

Anyone who played EU4 long enough should know that getting stuck in ZoC happens quite often. Other instances is when you're fighting an enemy that doesn't border you and your armies get stuck there without ever retreating to your land or allies land until you get stackwiped.

Personally I lost a few wars just because of that. It was rather frustrating and unrealistic. Retreat should always be an option like it historically was (Ceasar retreated all the way to Thessaly with Pompey in pursuit behind him). And if the enemy keeps retreating why chase them? Just siege their forts get enough score and stab hit them?

So I don't see why people are concerned about this. Losing your entire army because of being stuck in ZoC would've been far worse.
 

Truth

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If the AI chooses what's best for their composition, the player will be able to predict it most the time. If it's random, then player choice is arbitrary. If it's a mix of comp and random, the player will always have to pick for comp. Therefore I don't see much choice in this system.

Have there been any changed to how battles actually can go down? In CK2 and EU4, the larger force almost always wins (assuming there isn't obvious flaws like one side being all light infantry). Perhaps more frustrating, if the size of the forces are too different, the smaller side gets crushed with a 0% chance of winning. History is filled with instances of the significantly smaller force winning, because battle is about positioning, timing, and morale. A 5k force can beat a 10k of equal composition due to those factors, but in CK2 and EU4 that's nearly impossible. Furthermore, the 10k force will deal ~3k casualties while the 5k force will deal 500, the most frustrating thing about Paradox battles. The losing force apparently throws down its weapons and accepts the slaughter against themselves. Not only was was a 0% chance of winning, your men don't even fight smart or bravely enough to do 50% their number in return casualties... nor even 25%.

As a player, losing to a force 50% smaller than you for reasons outside your control sucks, but it also sucks that strategic depth in Paradox games largely comes down to having the larger force (and abusing the AI, ofc).
 

Trin Tragula

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With the retreating system, will stackwiping be possible or not? Is it possible to choose destinations for the retreating army, and or modify it on route?

Personally I don't like the stackwiping in eu4, but I know others love it

You don’t pick the destination in a shattered retreat. It always retreats you all the way back to your own territory to a location you do not choose and cannot change.
 

kente

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To facilitate prettier borders and cooperation between allies, we have a button in the province view with which you can transfer the occupation to any country that is on your side in the ongoing war

so this means i can transfer any province i occupied to any of my war allies, even if they do not border said province?
 

starchitect

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Do armies in shattered retreat take attrition?

Perhaps there should an increased attrition modifier during shattered retreat to give it a slightly larger cost than simply recovery time, especially if you are retreating through enemy territory.
 

Borgratz

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Anyone who played EU4 long enough should know that getting stuck in ZoC happens quite often. Other instances is when you're fighting an enemy that doesn't border you and your armies get stuck there without ever retreating to your land or allies land until you get stackwiped.

Personally I lost a few wars just because of that. It was rather frustrating and unrealistic. Retreat should always be an option like it historically was (Ceasar retreated all the way to Thessaly with Pompey in pursuit behind him). And if the enemy keeps retreating why chase them? Just siege their forts get enough score and stab hit them?

So I don't see why people are concerned about this. Losing your entire army because of being stuck in ZoC would've been far worse.

Oh, I know that you can get stuck behind enemy forts if you make tactical mistakes. That's what I want to keep. What happens less often (in my experience) is that you get stuck in ZoC randomly. It always happens when you send armies too deep into enemy territories.
And I am not sure why you think being stuck between two enemy forces is unrealistic. That happened all the time.

Eu IV can simulate outmneuvering stronger armies and retreating back into your own territory just fine, btw. It's when you see a big stack and you right click your own army in a way that it doesnt get caught.
What this "invulnerabilty" button takes away is the possibilty for the opposite to happen, where you outmaneuver an inferior army into a situation where it cant just run away and come back to fight you again.

I guess Imperator is a different game, so maybe the combat wont mostly consist out of chasing little AI stacks around your land while waiting for the enemies forts to fall. Maybe the decreased rate you gain moral or the speed you conquer forts, the new AI or any of the other small changes to the combat system will affect the game enough to make this a non issue. But if they would put a button like this into EUIV, I think the decreased risk to losing your army would make the game a lot more boring.
(I'm a fan of increased attrition when retreating btw. That would help keep shattering from being an effective griefing tool)
 

Sol_Invictus

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Will it be possible to automate army stances? I understand that some people will enjoy minmaxing this, but for my playstyle, I'd prefer some way that gives me a decent enough (albeit not perfect) stance for my army without me having to bother.
 

Denkt

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Will it be possible to automate army stances? I understand that some people will enjoy minmaxing this, but for my playstyle, I'd prefer some way that gives me a decent enough (albeit not perfect) stance for my army without me having to bother.
You can automate armies by letting the ai Control them but automating a specific thing such as army tactics while keeping the army under manual Control may not be possible.
 

Hummer

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You don’t pick the destination in a shattered retreat. It always retreats you all the way back to your own territory to a location you do not choose and cannot change.

Can you give us a hint of why and how the location is picked so we have a rough idea why some locations are perhaps picked over others?
 

Nicolas-

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Oh, I know that you can get stuck behind enemy forts if you make tactical mistakes. That's what I want to keep. What happens less often (in my experience) is that you get stuck in ZoC randomly. It always happens when you send armies too deep into enemy territories.

If you don't send your armies deep into enemy territory how are you supposed to get enough war score to take the land you want? You don't get that by sieging the few forts on the border.
 

Johan

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honestly my problems with ZOC was never getting stuck by it... but by the AI's uncanny ability to circumvent everything I had worked for with magic and misdirection.

The AI doesn't cheat it, there is just so many arcane rules to handle the possibility to move out from chained zoc.

Thats why Imperator does not have chained Zoc, and why the rules WILL make you cut off.