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Imperator - Development Diary - 18th of February 2019

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Imperator: Rome 9044 Bug Reports 3692 Suggestions 2399 User Mods 675 Tech Support 516 Multiplayer 56 After Action Report (AAR)
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AchedTeacher said:
where do you see basques? i'm unfamiliar with roman-era cultural history.
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I think he means the Vasconians (they would eventually become the Basques we know today)
 
I really interesting mechanic I must say!

I do however wonder how the centralization levels look for other areas bordering the unclaimed lands. Will most if not all migration come from this group of Germanic people shown in this dev diary? This would end up feeling a bit "asymmetrical" (insert better word), from a game play perspective, with a little island of Germanics expanding eastward into an empty void.

I get that the research needed would be hellish so I might be asking for too much, but it would be nice if you could fill out Eastern Europe and Central Asia with little specks and islands similar to how North America is in EU4. But I get that this is outside the scope at this point.
 
Trin Tragula said:
Hello and welcome to another Development Diary for Imperator:Rome!

Today we will be looking at Tribes once again, this time tribal migration in particular.
For a repetition on how tribal politics and Centralization works see this previous Development Diary.

One thing that stands out about many of the tribal societies we represent in Imperator is that they would at times migrate quite far away, settle in completely new locations and build themselves a new society elsewhere. In some cases this was a slow process where the influence of one tribal entity spread to nearby areas, but in others it was a more drastic movement of people from one place to another.

One such example is the creation of the Galatian states in Anatolia, new realms founded by Celts from the European mainland in Central Anatolia. Other examples abound in Germania and even the Pontic Steppes.



In the game all Tribal Chiefdoms will have the ability to migrate, and all Tribal states can become a Tribal Chiefdom if they reach a sufficient degree of decentralization.
Migration can be initiated in any city that has at least 3 pops, for a base cost of 100 Oratory power (reduced by negative Centralization), by clicking on the Migrate button in the city section of the province interface.

Migrating will turn up to 20 of the pops in the city into Light Infantry. This creates an army that can move around like any army, except it does not require military access to cross foreign lands. All types of pops can be used to create a Migration cohort but once settled (see below) always turn into Tribesmen. To migrate is to let go of any old specialized roles they may have had in their original location.

Even if a country loses its last city it still remains playable as long as the Migration units remain, meaning you can quite literally uproot your entire society and resettle somewhere else.



Any army that has more Migration cohorts than there are pops in its current location can settle in that location. This will turn all Migration units into Tribesmen of your culture and religion and settle them in this city, taking ownership of it, even if it was owned by someone else beforehand. In order to be able to settle the location must also either be uncolonized or under your control in a war.

Using this tribes can quickly establish themselves in a new region, creating a new life far from where they started. Much like colonization settling does not turn locals into your culture or religion, which means this newly created settlement may have to deal with some unhappy pops among its locals.


An army containing Migration units can also use the Pillage unit ability when in foreign owned cities. This will give the city a 5 year penalty to population growth and commerce and will give direct additions of power based on the number of pops living in the city and its current Civilization level.

A city cannot be pillaged again as long as the penalty has worn out.


Germania
View attachment 452176
(Screenshot showing where the Germanic cultures can be found currently)​
And with that we move on to one part of the map where this mechanic is very readily available. In our start of 450 AUC all countries in Northern Germania are Tribal Chiefdoms, and they all start at -50% Centralization or less, meaning that Migration is not just available, it is also quite efficient.

From a historical standpoint Germania in 450 AUC/304 BCE is one of the most poorly documented places we have on the map. While larger cultures and trends have been observed, and while we know a fair bit about what was going on later in time, we cannot know for sure about any details at our start. For this reason this region is among the more speculative included in the game. For that matter deciding what should start settled and owned by a “country” and what should be populated but unclaimed at our start is not easy. We have arrived at what we hope is a balance that will best facilitate a historical feel to the area, one where the abilities you have in the game to migrate and colonize can be of good use, while still allowing the more noteworthy tribal entities that existed to be playable.

Like in tribal regions elsewhere the Germanian tribes will have access to formable countries such as Suebia or Saxonia.


Western Germania:
View attachment 452171​

The part of northern Germania that is closest to Gaul, often called the Jastorf culture area. In 450 AUC this region is inhabited by a wide variety of tribal states, some will later be found in far from these locations while others will remain familiar to this setting. Had the writings of the explorer Pythias of Massilia survived we might have known more but all we can say with certainty is the start of the game this is a dynamic region with a great variety of outcomes.


Starting Countries:
View attachment 452170​

  • Frisia: Medium Sized Tribal Chiefdom on the western edge of the Germanic region. Would eventually push south and west, where they came in contact with the Roman Empire.
  • Angrivaria: Small Tribal Chiefdom surrounded by stronger neighbors. Would remain active in the area into imperial era.
  • Cheruscia: Tribal Chiefdom on the southern edge of this region. Perhaps most known for, along with neighboring tribes, defeating the Roman commander Varus in the Teutoburg forest in 9 AD, shortly after the end of this game. In 304 BCE nothing of that is predetermined however and this is just one of the tribes contesting this region.
  • Chaucia: Germanic Tribal Chiefdom in the region between the Ems and Elbe. Like the Cheruscia they are largely known for things that would transpire long after the start of our game.
  • Fosia: Smaller and slightly poorer neighbors of Cheruscia.
  • Marcommania: Strong Tribal Chiefdom that would in time migrate south to modern Bohemia.
  • Langobardia: Tribal chiefdom controlling part of the Elbe. Their later day relatives would migrate far to the south.
  • Reudigna: Small tribal chiefdom just south of the Jutland peninsula.
  • Anglia: Small Tribal chiefdom south of the Jutland Peninsula. Would many centuries later settle in the British Isles.
  • Aviones: Another Jutlandic tribe, in modern North Frisia.
  • Eudosia: Tribal chiefdom, probably the sma people that is later simply known as the Jutes.
  • Teutonia: Tribal chiefdom in northern Jutland. Came to clash with the Roman Republic, along with Cimbri in the Danubian river area and even as far south as Italy.
  • Cimbria: Like the Teutons the Cimbri fought the Romans around 100 BCE, but at our start they are one of the many Jutlandic tribes, far away from Rome and any other mediterranean states.


Baltic Germania:
View attachment 452168​
Moving east along the baltic we reach the eastern end of the Jastorf area as well as a number of other cultures into one of the parts of Germania that is the furthest away from the Mediterranean. Hence little is actually known about local politics. Like the Germanic region to its west this is a region divided under a variety of tribes, some which would carry the embryo to later more famous groups such as the Vandals, Goths or Suebi. This region is remarkable for its high availability of Amber, that would later spread


Starting Countries:
View attachment 452169​
  • Varinia: Staunch Germanic tribe in modern Mecklenburg and Pomerania.
  • Semnonia: Suebi Tribal Chiefdom in the central Germanic region.
  • Rugia: Small tribal chiefdom with supposed roots in northern Scandinavia.
  • Lugia: The Lugi are often identified with the later Vandals. In 450 AUC they are a moderately powerful tribal chiefdom in northern Germania.
  • Lemovia: Small tribal chiefdom with close ties with Lugia and Rugia.
  • Bastarnia: Powerful tribal chiefdom in modern day Poland. Would in time migrate south and come into conflict with the Roman Republic in the Carpathian region.
  • Gothonia: Small tribal chiefdom in modern Pomerelia. One of the possible ancestors of the in the future so famous Goths.
  • Sciria: Small Tribal Chiefdom by the Vistula river.
  • Aestuia: Baltic tribal chiefdom on the eastern side of the Vistula, and the only Baltic culture and religion playable country at the start of the game.
Click to expand...


Oy! OOOYYY! Why can't we start as Dania?!
 
Mcwynne said:
I really interesting mechanic I must say!

I do however wonder how the centralization levels look for other areas bordering the unclaimed lands. Will most if not all migration come from this group of Germanic people shown in this dev diary? This would end up feeling a bit "asymmetrical" (insert better word), from a game play perspective, with a little island of Germanics expanding eastward into an empty void.

I get that the research needed would be hellish so I might be asking for too much, but it would be nice if you could fill out Eastern Europe and Central Asia with little specks and islands similar to how North America is in EU4. But I get that this is outside the scope at this point.
Click to expand...
Most of non-coastal Poland was actually inhabited by the Lugian federation. If needs be they could be split into their major sub-tribes, the Burii, the Burgundiones, the Helveconae, the Harii, the Helisii, the Naharvali and the Manimi.
 
Denkt said:
The land to the east of Aestuia is wasteland.
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But it's tiny little province sized wastelands with names.

Sounds a lot like soon to be actual provinces rather than giant wastelands I'm use to seeing in other games.

Here they are:
rsEphY6.png


EDIT: Other than adding a wider corridor to the east is there really anything wrong with adding more empty provinces in these areas so long as we know people actually did live there?

I guess they have to add religion and culture which could be a hitch though.
 
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While i usually only comment to criticize somethings i regard as incorrect, i'll have to praise you for this attention to detail in Iberia.

Trin Tragula said:
Germania
index.php
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This is by far the most accurate depiction of Pre-Roman Iberia in gaming, and even one of the most accurates in all media.
Usually "Celtiberian" is used to describe all of the Celts in Hispania, while they were really only one of the many Celtic cultures in Hispania.
Sometimes its even worse, sometimes they ONLY include the Celtiberian tribes as Celtic, and all the rest as Iberian (*cough* TotalWar *cough*) which is ironic, since the Celtiberians are only half-Celtic-half-Iberian, while the Gallaeci, Celtici or Asturians were just Celtic and not Iberian at all.
So well done there.

However i don't quite consider this map perfect, because the Turdetanians, weren't Iberian, they were their own unique Tartessian culture, sure this isn't really a mistake, simply an oversimplification, which is understandable for gameplay and development reasons.

While talking about the Turdetanians being Tartessian and not Iberian, the Conii or the Turduli were also half-Celtic-half-Tartessian, not Iberian.
And also, the Lusitanians and Vettones were also half-celtic-half-"SomethingElse".

However "halves" don't exist so they must sit with some existing group, understandable.
The Celtiberians, Lusitanians and Vettones were grouped under Celtic, which its fine.
The Turduli and Conii were grouped under Iberian, which would be fine assuming Tartessian was actually Iberian in the first place.
So while the Turduli and Conii weren't "fully" Celtic, they weren't Iberian either, (and 50% is better than 0% imo). So the only change i would make is moving the Conii and Turdulli to Celtic group. Or if possible creating a new Tartessian major group and include the Turdetanians, Turdullians and Conii.
But again, i want to congratulate you for this beautiful map.
 
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Bandua_of_Gallaecia said:
While i usually only comment to criticize somethings i regard as incorrect, i'll have to praise you for this attention to detail in Iberia.


This is by far the most accurate depiction of Pre-Roman Iberia in gaming, and even one of the most accurates in all media.
Usually "Celtiberian" is used to describe all of the Celts in Hispania, while they were really one of the many Celtic cultures in Hispania.
Sometimes its even worse, sometimes they (*cough* TotalWar *cough*) ONLY include the Celtiberian tribes as Celtic, and all the rest as Iberian, which is ironic, since the Celtiberians are only half-Celtic-half-Iberian, while the Gallaeci, Celtici or Asturians were just Celtic and not Iberian at all.
So congratulations.

However i don't quite consider this map perfect, because the Turdetanians, weren't Iberian, they were their own unique Tartessian culture, however this isn't really a mistake, simply an oversimplification, which is understandable for gameplay and development reasons.
While talking about the Turdetanians being Tartessian and not Iberian, the Conii or the Turduli were also half-Celtic-half-Tartessian, not Iberian.
And also, the Lusitanians and Vettones were also half-celtic-half-"SomethingElse".

However "halves" don't exist so they must sit with some existing group, understandable.
The Celtiberians, Lusitanians and Vettones were grouped under Celtic, which its fine.
The Turduli and Conii were grouped under Iberian, which would be fine assuming Tartessian was actually Iberian in the first place.
So while the Turduli and Conii weren't "fully" Celtic, they weren't Iberian either, (and 50% is better than 0%) so the only change i would make is moving the Conii and Turdulli to Celtic group.
Or if possible creating a new Tartessian major group and include the Turdetanians, Turdullians and Conii.
Click to expand...
Agreed on the Turdulians, while I'm not so sure about the Conii. For the Turdulians there's the gameplay reason and somewhat a continuity reason (everyone around them being Celtiberian seems quite odd, while they aren't), as they are surrounded by Celtiberians.
Although John T. Koch even went so far to state that the Tartessians spoke a Celtic dialect, his conclusion is quite disputed. I suppose it'll be a longer lasting matter what language they actually spoke.
 
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klopkr said:
But it's tiny little province sized wastelands with names.

Sounds a lot like soon to be actual provinces rather than giant wastelands I'm use to seeing in other games.

Here they are:
rsEphY6.png


EDIT: Other than adding a wider corridor to the east is there really anything wrong with adding more empty provinces in these areas so long as we know people actually did live there?

I guess they have to add religion and culture which could be a hitch though.
Click to expand...
The wasteland now called Fennia was actually inhabited by the same people that are called Aestians. It's why I think it should be included, at least as colonisable. Everything east of them is either extremely primitive like the Strichkeramik people (supposedly Vennedi, see here https://translate.google.com/transl...://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strichkeramik-Kultur ) or just hunter-gatherers without any kind of (permanent) settlements.
 
Paland0 said:
The wasteland now called Fennia was actually inhabited by the same people that are called Aestians. It's why I think it should be included, at least as colonisable. Everything east of them is either extremely primitive like the Strichkeramik people (supposedly Vennedi, see here https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strichkeramik-Kultur ) or just hunter-gatherers without any kind of (permanent) settlements.
Click to expand...
I wonder if that might be what's going to happen actually. I wouldn't be surprised if they're just unfinished extra provinces for the Aestians.
 
fëanor89 said:
I wasn't saying that Etruscans and Basque were connected, I've just noticed that they created a large Non Indo-European culture group that includes both Basques and Sardinians/Corsicas (with whom the Etruscans had really strong material and cultural connections). For this reason I felt that, since Etruscans and Rhaetians as well are non I-E, they could be included in this group. Obviusly they can also make yet another culture group which includes Sardinians/Corsicans, Etruscans and Rhatians.
Click to expand...

It's a bit weird group anyway since now the proto-Basques are in some non-IE group, but also in a different group than Iberians. I don't think there is serious disagreement that the languages spoken through the Mediterranean coast of Spain at the time were not Indo-European, even if their exact relation to proto-Basque might be up to question.
 
Paland0 said:
The wasteland now called Fennia was actually inhabited by the same people that are called Aestians. It's why I think it should be included, at least as colonisable. Everything east of them is either extremely primitive like the Strichkeramik people (supposedly Vennedi, see here https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strichkeramik-Kultur ) or just hunter-gatherers without any kind of (permanent) settlements.
Click to expand...
You have a great map of Germany. I put a like. Only I do not agree about the Heruls, most historians do not agree. Because after the defeat of the Lombards, the Heruls left for Thule Island.
I agree that the Balts lived in the Stone Age. But with the arrival of Goths, they began to develop rapidly.
Claudius Ptolemy mentions the Galindians, the Sudins, the Careotes, and the Sales. Their names are found in the Middle Ages. It was possible to add them to the game.
 
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