Imperator - Development Diary - 18th of February 2019

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

cristofolmc

Banned
32 Badges
Mar 5, 2009
3.455
4.319
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome Gold
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
It's nice but I fear the germanic tribes will simply conquer each other instead of push outward like they really did. On the balance side with south germany devoid of tribes the celts will be much less able to resist than they were. The push of the germanics into germany took most of the time frame of this game.


This. The migration feature cannot only be left for the player to abuse. It should be used by the tribes as often as possible.
 

Chipmunk216

Second Lieutenant
65 Badges
Oct 15, 2010
172
10
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Prison Architect
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
It's nice but I fear the germanic tribes will simply conquer each other instead of push outward like they really did. On the balance side with south germany devoid of tribes the celts will be much less able to resist than they were. The push of the germanics into germany took most of the time frame of this game.

Yeah it would be nice to see some kind of pressure for tribal cultures to fragment and push outward rather than consolidate, which is the natural tendency in PDX and other strategy games. The strong usually get stronger and their neighbors fall to the blob. It would be kind of lame to play as Rome and arrive in a Gaul or Germania that is owned by 2 or 3 mega-tribes.
 

Lord Hoosier

Lt. General
90 Badges
Mar 12, 2017
1.292
588
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • For The Glory
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
What about Kingdoms and Federations?
 

Denkt

Left the forums permamently
42 Badges
May 28, 2010
15.763
6.368
Yeah it would be nice to see some kind of pressure for tribal cultures to fragment and push outward rather than consolidate, which is the natural tendency in PDX and other strategy games. The strong usually get stronger and their neighbors fall to the blob. It would be kind of lame to play as Rome and arrive in a Gaul that is owned by 2 or 3 mega-tribes.
Tribes don't have natural aggressive expansion decay as can be seen in the devclash so they have a harder time to expand than Rome.

What about Kingdoms and Federations?
Probably only exist to make you a monarch or republic, other than migration and some tribesmen buff, why would you want to be a tribe.
 

Chipmunk216

Second Lieutenant
65 Badges
Oct 15, 2010
172
10
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Prison Architect
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
germanywhere.PNG


It appears that some kind of "non Indo-European" culture group which includes Vasconian, Aquitanian, Nuragic etc has been added. For linguistic reasons, you might consider to remove both the Etruscan and Rhaetian cultures form the Italic culture group and insert them in this new one (they were related and non Indo-European). Of course if the choice of having both the Etruscans and the Rhaetians in the Italic group was due to gameplay balance (i.e. it's easier for the Romans to conquer Italy if the Etruscans are in their culture group because of the lessened aggressive expansion penalty) then never mind.

I feel like culture groups don't have to be strictly linguistic. After centuries of close interaction the Etruscans were a lot more like the Romans than they were like the Basques, one would think.
 

Ols

Liberal Nihilist
99 Badges
Jun 12, 2012
6.199
595
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • For the Motherland
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
I feel like culture groups don't have to be strictly linguistic. After centuries of close interaction the Etruscans were a lot more like the Romans than they were like the Basques, one would think.

The Etruscan-Basque connection is a largely unsupported hypothesis anyway. It's not very good to connect up cultures based on what they're not. It is definitely true that Etruscans had a strong cultural connection to Greeks and Latins, and their material culture and writing system reflected a very deep cultural exchange.
 

Palando

RESTITVTOR ORBIS
50 Badges
Feb 23, 2017
1.173
190
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • BATTLETECH
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
These are not the modern Frisians. The area underwent great upheaval by around 400AD and was then resettled by Ingvaeones. I'm not sure what the link you've provided signifies, but the Frisian coast was sparely inhabited/uninhabited towards the late Roman period, providing a clear break from "Frisii" culture to "Old Frisian" culture. You can't definitively connect the Frisii to the Ingvaeones for that reason, even if it's highly likely they were connected to a neighbouring Germanic tribe.
Medieval Frisians =/= Frisii.
They just to name them Frisia, so I guess that's our point of dispute here. Tacitus mentions the Frisii and other authors mention them with Drusus's campaign (which started in 12 BC).
Those ancient authors used Ingvaeones to describe the North Sea inhabiting tribes.
 

Denkt

Left the forums permamently
42 Badges
May 28, 2010
15.763
6.368
This. The migration feature cannot only be left for the player to abuse. It should be used by the tribes as often as possible.
The whole migration mechanic may pretty much feel like an exploit, I actually wonder how they will balance it.
Pillaging seems very potent but probably very annoying to use because you need to move your army and press a button for every city.
 

TheDungen

Field Marshal
80 Badges
Jan 31, 2015
12.045
7.699
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
The whole migration mechanic may pretty much feel like an exploit, I actually wonder how they will balance it.
What if factions (clans?) in a tribal society could just up and leave forming their own migration by taking pops from you?
 

Denkt

Left the forums permamently
42 Badges
May 28, 2010
15.763
6.368
What if factions (clans?) in a tribal society could just up and leave forming their own migration by taking pops from you?
It would nerf it a bit but it wont mean the victims of the migration tribes will be better of. Consider the pops that would migrate would likely be the pops you have conquered and if they start to take over other cities and turn these pops into migrants as well it may trigger a chain reaction which turn the whole World into migrant tribes.

Like a german tribe would still be able to take a few cities in gaul, turn them into migrants and use them to turn more cities in gaul into migrants and so on and eventually gaul would be completely empty of pops and the hord would simply turn into Italy and do the same.
 

fëanor89

Second Lieutenant
32 Badges
Jun 26, 2008
117
8
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
The Etruscan-Basque connection is a largely unsupported hypothesis anyway. It's not very good to connect up cultures based on what they're not. It is definitely true that Etruscans had a strong cultural connection to Greeks and Latins, and their material culture and writing system reflected a very deep cultural exchange.
I wasn't saying that Etruscans and Basque were connected, I've just noticed that they created a large Non Indo-European culture group that includes both Basques and Sardinians/Corsicas (with whom the Etruscans had really strong material and cultural connections). For this reason I felt that, since Etruscans and Rhaetians as well are non I-E, they could be included in this group. Obviusly they can also make yet another culture group which includes Sardinians/Corsicans, Etruscans and Rhatians.
 

Ololorium

Captain
80 Badges
Jun 20, 2011
499
2.134
  • Victoria 2
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Ancient Space
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
Migration can be initiated in any city that has at least 3 pops...
Migrating will turn up to 20 of the pops in the city into Light Infantry...
Any army that has more Migration cohorts than there are pops in its current location can settle in that location. This will turn all Migration units into Tribesmen of your culture and religion.
I am a bit confused: what happens to pops which do not belong to your primary culture and religion, when you click the migration button? I see three possible options:
  1. They stay in the province and the province remains under your control
  2. They stay and the province becomes uncolonized
  3. They are converted to light infantry as well
First option is bad, because it locks you out of the ability to move all of your tribe far away. Third option is really bad, because it effectively lets you to assimilate unlimited number of pops to your culture and religion instantly. Second option, then?
 

Te. Kenzo

Field Marshal
104 Badges
Aug 3, 2009
3.721
696
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Deus Vult
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Dungeonland
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
Questions:

1. If these "barbarian" faction are "peoples moving around" more than "states-in-places", you don't think that the classic names work better? Like "Saxons" instead of "Saxonia", a good compromise could be that they change the name from "Saxons" to "Saxonia" when they are centralized and stable if you want to use these names.

2. When I raise pops to migrate I can raise only pops of my culture? If yes, religion have a role on this? any other pop need to be converted before being part of the migrating tribe?

3. I noticed you splitted "Saxonia" in more faction that can form Saxonia at some point. Have you ever thought to do something like this for "Etruria"? Actually is described as a monolithic faction spanning from Tuscany to Corsica instead of an alliance of somewhat indipendent cities. Maybe Etruria can be described better with one of the alliance mechanics that are in the game.

A question not directly concerning this diary: I noticed in recently streams that Corsica is now without Carthaginian presence and with more Etrurian presence, why so? I'm curious about this choiche.
 

Palando

RESTITVTOR ORBIS
50 Badges
Feb 23, 2017
1.173
190
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • BATTLETECH
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
About the Burgundians :

The first mention of the Burgundians is by Plinius the Elder who spent several years in Germania in the 50s of the first century AD. He describes them as part of the Vandalias ( = Lugians) and to the west of the Vandals. Klaudios Ptolemaios also mentions them to the Vandals' west.
Toto autem mari ad Scaldim usque fluvium Germaniae accolunt gentes, haud explicabili mesnura: tam inmodica prodentium discordia est. Graeci et quidam nostri |XXV| oram Germaniae tradiderunt, Agrippa cum Raetia et Norico longitudinem DCXXXVI, latitudinem CCXLVIII, si coniectare permittitur, haut multum ora deerit Graecorum opinioni et longitudini ab Agrippa proditae. Germanorum genera quinque: Vandili, quorum pars Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones. alterum genus Inguaeones, quorum pars Cimbri, Teutoni ac Chaucorum gentes....


When it comes to literary depictions of their origin we have four early sources:
  • Res gestae, Ammianus Marcellinus
  • Historiae adversum paganos, Orosius
  • Passio sancti Sigismundi regis
  • Chronicon universale usque ad 741

The Res gestae is the first and mentions that the Burgundians had a connection to the Romans from which they derived their name (Ammianus Marcellinus XXVIII, 5):
9. For that ferocious nation, though from its earliest origin diminished by various disasters, yet continually revives, so that it might be considered as having been free from attacks for many ages. At last, after the emperor had considered and approved of one plan after another, it was finally determined to excite the Burgundians to attack them, the Burgundians being a warlike people, with an immense population of active youths, and therefore formidable to all their neighbours.

10. And the emperor sent repeated letters to their chiefs by some silent and trustworthy messengers, to urge them to attack the Allemanni at a certain fixed time, and promising that he likewise would cross the Rhine with the Roman legions, and attack their forces when in disorder, and seeking to escape the unexpected attack of the Burgundians.

11. The letters of the emperor were received with joy, for two reasons: first, because for many ages the Burgundians had looked upon themselves as descended from the Romans; and secondly, because they had continual quarrels with the Allemanni about their salt-pits and their borders. So they sent against them some picked battalions, which, before the Roman soldiers could be collected, advanced as far as the banks of the Rhine, and, while the emperor was engaged in the construction of some fortresses, caused the greatest alarm to our people

The next one is the Historiae adversum paganos (Hist. VII, 32):

The Burgundians, a new enemy with a new name, numbering, it is said, more than eighty thousand armed men, settled on the bank of the Rhine. In earlier times, when the interior of Germany had been subjugated by Drusus and Tiberius, the adopted sons of Caesar, the Burgundians were stationed at different frontier posts. Later they united to form a great people. They took their name from their stations, for the dwelling places at frequent intervals along the frontier are commonly called burgi. The power and destructiveness of their tribes is manifest even today from the condition of the Gallic provinces where they have now settled, their right to do so being undisputed. Nevertheless, through the providence of God they have all recently become Christians, embracing the Catholic faith and acknowledging obedience to our clergy, so that they live mild, gentle, and harmless lives, regarding the Gauls not as their subjects but in truth as their Christian brethren.

The far later Passio cites Fredegar as source; Fredegar mentions that the Langobardians originated in Scandinavia. The Scandinavian origin was, thus, only added later on to the Burgundian myth; one could speculate that it was because "being from Scandinavia was cool" among kingdoms that derived from such barbarian tribes. The Chronicon is even more recent than that so there's not so much to be found there. Those later sources cite the newer ones and adapt the history apropriate for their purpose.



Then there's Burgundarholmr which is a name first attested for the 9th century AD. It's extremely unlikely that the tradition would've been kept for so many years, especially as the mention was in a written source of Anglo-Saxon origin.
Burgundar (bṿhánt) also doesn't have a very exclusive meaning, as it just means high.


As neither archeology nor the early written sources point towards an origin from Scandinavia, I hope you'll reconsider having them there, @Trin Tragula @Arheo
Burgundians in Scandinavia is just a myth invented far later on.
 
Last edited:

Kukumarro

Second Lieutenant
46 Badges
Oct 6, 2016
157
5
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
It would be possible to prevent the germanic tribes from just conquering each other and forming 2 or 3 megatribes. If each tribe has a culture associated to it, when a tribes loses a province to a migration/war, they should be able to evacuate pops (some at least) of their culture as migrants (for free). Then they just have to settle them somewhere or add them to one of their provinces.

Also, there should be some link between the population of a city and the migration, as overpopulation was a usual driver for these. Maybe some kind of penalty to tribesmen happiness in cities with 30+pops, along with a discount to migration cost.

Two more questions regarding migration:
  1. When you migrate, do you take with you non-slave pops of other cultures? Because if you do, i can see a snowball when you settle to pick up free pops and then migrate again.
  2. Do barbarians work like a migration? So, will they settle and create a tag for themselves in an empty province of low population or a colonized province they occupy?
 

TomosCaerllion

Gladio vici, gladio teneo, gladio tenebo.
82 Badges
May 12, 2013
657
244
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • The Showdown Effect
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
Please Paradox, as Northern Europe is in fact a guesswork by this time, could you add the Franks (or the Salians to be more precise) near the Frisians or anywhere else up in Europe? As we already have Anglia, Burgundia, Saxonia, Suebia, Teutonia, Langobardia, Guthonia, Dania... a simple Francia added on the map would be awesome!

Edit: I see there is a province named Salia near Frisia, but is empty like most Germany...

The Franks seem to be a later federation of tribes, a larger identity that didn't exist in earlier times. Since the Chauci and others disappear as the Franks appear, it's feasible that many of these smaller identities merged into the larger Frankish confederation.
 
Last edited: