Imperator - Development Diary #13 - 20th of August 2018

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Thure

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So far, I mostly like what I am reading.

But two things worry me.

1- I will have to translate the "religious faction" in something vaguely historical in my headcanon. Because it never existed in Rome, never, ever. Religion impacts all apsects of civic life in Rome, deamnding "more religion" is a complete nonsense.

This factions are for ALL republics, not just the Romans. That's why they are so generic.
 

Prometheus_1

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Hello everyone and welcome to another development diary for Imperator. Today is the lucky number 13, and we’ll talk about how the politics in Republics work, or more specific the Senate.

The Senate, in a republic, has 100 seats, and each seat belongs to one of of five factions. Every adult character in a republic has a predilection of each faction, and is supportive of one. Each faction also have a leader, generally the most prominent character that supports that faction.

Depending on which faction the ruler of the republic belongs to, the republic gets various bonuses or maluses.

  • Civic Faction: +25% Tax Income, 10% Cheaper and Faster buildings.
  • Military Faction: +25% Land Morale, +25% Naval Morale
  • Mercantile Faction: +25% Commerce Income, +5 Diplomatic Reputation
  • Religious Faction: +10% Omen Duration, 33% Cheaper Religious Conversion
  • Populist Faction: +10% Power Costs


For Modders: You can freely add or remove factions and make them available to different government types, or have any type of trigger allowing the faction to give unique ones.

As you may notice there, having populists in power is not entirely beneficial.


The amount of seats in the senate change over time, depending on different factors, with the charisma of the faction leader always impacting the attraction of the seats.

If you wish to strengthen a parties position in the senate instantly, you can always spend oratory power to convince 10 seats to join that faction instead. Doing so however, increases your tyranny.

So why must you take into account the composition of the senate. Well.. There are three types of activities where the senate will impact your ability to do exactly what you want at any given time, like a ruler in an absolute monarchy.

The senate can outright block you if the support for the action you desire to do, if less than 40 seats is currently backing that action. And if less than 60 seats back the action, you can force it through, but you will gain some tyranny from it.

There are three different categories of actions which require senate approval.
  • All changing of laws require approval by the senate
  • A lot of character interactions, like banishing, imprisoning, etc.
  • All diplomatic interactions with other nations.


If the senate will approve an action or not depends very much on its composition, and what you want to do. Military Faction is very likely to back new wars, but even some of their seats will be against wars if you have war exhaustion, low at manpower or currently in a war.

When you do an action, a lot of times it has impact on the characters of your nation. Loyalty is lost or gained depending on faction membership, and seats are gained and lost for different factions.

For Modders: All of this can be controlled entirely through powerful scripting language.

Here is an example of the Senate Calculations for 'Declare War'


Code:
####################################
# Declare War
####################################
declare_war = {

    approval = {
   
        military_party = {
            base = 0
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.5
                has_civil_war = no
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    add = root.manpower_percentage
                    max = 0.5
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.3
                war = yes
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 20
                    subtract = root.has_war_exhaustion
                    divide = 50
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            #######generic
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = military_senate_support_svalue
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = root.current_ruler.martial
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                OR = {
                    AND = {
                        current_ruler = {
                            num_of_friends >= 1
                        }
                        any_character = {
                            is_friend = root.current_ruler
                            is_party_leader_of = root.party:military_party
                        }
                    }
                    current_ruler = {
                        is_party_leader_of = root.party:military_party
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.current_ruler = {
                                party = military_party
                            }
                        }
                        add = 0.2
                        add = {
                            value = 0
                            add = root.tyranny
                            divide = 100
                        }
                        max = 0.4
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.15
                current_ruler = {
                    num_of_rivals >= 1
                }
                any_character = {
                    is_rival = root.current_ruler
                    is_party_leader_of = root.party:military_party
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.1
                government = aristocratic_republic
            }
        }
   
        civic_party = {
            base = 0
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.5
                has_civil_war = yes
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                NOT = { current_ruler = { has_same_culture_group_as = scope:target.current_ruler } }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                NOT = { current_ruler = { has_same_culture_as = scope:target.current_ruler } }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 20
                    subtract = root.has_war_exhaustion
                    divide = 100
                    max = 0.1
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.2
                scope:target = {
                    is_tribal = yes
                }
            }
            #######generic
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = civic_senate_support_svalue
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = root.current_ruler.finesse
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                OR = {
                    AND = {
                        current_ruler = {
                            num_of_friends >= 1
                        }
                        any_character = {
                            is_friend = root.current_ruler
                            is_party_leader_of = root.party:civic_party
                        }
                    }
                    current_ruler = {
                        is_party_leader_of = root.party:civic_party
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.current_ruler = {
                                party = civic_party
                            }
                        }
                        add = 0.2
                        add = {
                            value = root.tyranny
                            divide = 100
                        }
                        max = 0.4  
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.15
                current_ruler = {
                    num_of_rivals >= 1
                }
                any_character = {
                    is_rival = root.current_ruler
                    is_party_leader_of = root.party:civic_party
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.1
                government = democratic_republic
            }
        }
        religious_party = {
            base = 0.1
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.5
                has_civil_war = yes
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.2
                NOT = { current_ruler = { has_same_religion_as = scope:target.current_ruler } }
            }
            #######generic
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = religious_senate_support_svalue
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = root.current_ruler.zeal
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                OR = {
                    AND = {
                        current_ruler = {
                            num_of_friends >= 1
                        }
                        any_character = {
                            is_friend = root.current_ruler
                            is_party_leader_of = root.party:religious_party
                        }
                    }
                    current_ruler = {
                        is_party_leader_of = root.party:religious_party
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.current_ruler = {
                                party = religious_party
                            }
                        }
                        add = 0.2
                        add = {
                            value = 0
                            add = root.tyranny
                            divide = 100
                        }
                        max = 0.4
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.15
                current_ruler = {
                    num_of_rivals >= 1
                }
                any_character = {
                    is_rival = root.current_ruler
                    is_party_leader_of = root.party:religious_party
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.1
                government = theocratic_republic
            }
        }
        mercantile_party = {
            base = 0.5
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.5
                has_civil_war = yes
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.5
                trade_access_with = scope:target
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.has_war_exhaustion <= 10
                        }
                        value = 10
                        subtract = root.has_war_exhaustion
                        divide = 50
                        max = 0.2
                    }
                    else = {
                        value = 0
                        subtract = root.has_war_exhaustion
                        add = 10
                        divide = 25
                        max = -0.4
                    }
                }
            }
            #######generic
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = mercantile_senate_support_svalue
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = root.current_ruler.charisma
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                OR = {
                    AND = {
                        current_ruler = {
                            num_of_friends >= 1
                        }
                        any_character = {
                            is_friend = root.current_ruler
                            is_party_leader_of = root.party:mercantile_party
                        }
                    }
                    current_ruler = {
                        is_party_leader_of = root.party:mercantile_party
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.current_ruler = {
                                party = mercantile_party
                            }
                        }
                        add = 0.2
                        add = {
                            value = 0
                            add = root.tyranny
                            divide = 100
                        }
                        max = 0.4
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.15
                current_ruler = {
                    num_of_rivals >= 1
                }
                any_character = {
                    is_rival = root.current_ruler
                    is_party_leader_of = root.party:mercantile_party
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.1
                government = oligarchic_republic
            }
        }
        populist_party = {
            base = 0.1
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                scope:target = {
                    is_monarchy = yes
                }
            }
            #######generic
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = populist_senate_support_svalue
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                OR = {
                    AND = {
                        current_ruler = {
                            num_of_friends >= 1
                        }
                        any_character = {
                            is_friend = root.current_ruler
                            is_party_leader_of = root.party:populist_party
                        }
                    }
                    current_ruler = {
                        is_party_leader_of = root.party:populist_party
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.current_ruler = {
                                party = populist_party
                            }
                        }
                        add = 0.3
                        add = {
                            value = 0
                            add = root.tyranny
                            divide = 100
                        }
                        max = 0.6  
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.15
                current_ruler = {
                    num_of_rivals >= 1
                }
                any_character = {
                    is_rival = root.current_ruler
                    is_party_leader_of = root.party:populist_party
                }
            }
        }
    }
   
    loyalty = {
        military_party = 0.1
        populist_party = -0.1
    }
   
    support = {
        civic_party = -1
        military_party = 3
        mercantile_party = -1
        populist_party = -1
    }
}



View attachment 398612

Stay tuned, next week we’ll talk even more politics with laws and offices.

A little image of the senate and eventually dynamically represent the composition woul dhelp immersion in contrast to simple text and numbers.
 

Nyrael

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But why copy a game they’ve already made? It comes off as a bit lazy. Especially considering they won’t even patch the old game.

They changed the map, they changed the tech system, they made changes to the military system, they changed the colonization system (or more precisely replaced it), the building system was changed, etc.
They won't change every damn feature in the game, especially not the ones they consider to have worked well enough.

Just a question, can women govern provinces in any cultures?
All the pics so far seem to be dudes from the main countries? or is it just that dudes are the only art done so far as people are busy with other stuff?

If there were cultures that had common female governors, I imagine there will be countries in the game that can appoint female governors. Won't be in the Republic of Rome though.
 

dowdpride

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So populists are just generic rebels that are always bad for you? Wasn't Julius Caesar part of the "populist party"?
in case you didnt notice, Caeser's policies led to the complete alienation of the entire political class, which resulted in his assassination, which resulted in a four way civil war. So as much as I like the guy, no populists generally arent good for the long term success of a nation.
 

gorillacakes

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Would strenuously disagree that Gaius Gracchus and Saturninus acted in a legal fashion. Arguably, neither did Tiberius Gracchus (ignoring a veto) and Sulpicius (debateable!).

But ignoring that part, I’ll be willing to concede that Ti. Semp. Gracchus and M. Liv. Drusus at least were genuinely trying to solve problems, as far as we can tell, and ended up murdered for it.

The populist faction generally represented discontent in I:R. It wasn’t a good thing. But then again, the rise of the Gracchi wasn’t a good thing either: in that if the Republic were functioning fairly, they wouldn’t need to exist.

So the question is — do the populist penalties just mean the populists are all bad? Or do they represent the tensions caused by then gaining power? Arguably, populists were a problem when they were a senatorial minority and had to go around the usual institutions. If the Gracchi had carried the Senate, there wouldn’t have been a problem.

A veritable ocean of ink has been spilled on the legality of it all over the course of two millennia, so I guess we won't answer that conundrum here.

But you raise an important point by bringing the question of morality into it. Was X faction good and was Y faction bad? Paradox games generally set this stuff aside and allow the player the option to experiment with alternative gameplay. I feel that constraining the Populists is a step back in this regard. In historical terms it denies them an ideological coherence and agency but most important of all, in gameplay terms this simply translates into making them boring. There are a lot of interesting options which could be added to make for some great challenges throughout the course of a Republican game but are now essentially void with devs declaring that the advantages of Populists amount to "none really".
 

Antediluvian Monster

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you all need to remember that populist in the roman times = dirty commie that need to be purged

Who of the populares specifically advocated for seizing the means of production from the wealthy landowners (a group to which the populares all belonged) and instituting communal ownership of it? You can't be a communist without this.

It's very dubious they were politically left even in the mildest sense, since none of them seem to have believed in abolition of slavery (and such ideas were vanishingly rare in general in antiquity). Or a class based society in general for that matter.

For example even Cleomenes III of Sparta who gave an equal lot of land to all citizens (which is more than any Roman populist ever got through) still kept the non-citizens around and he also kept the slaves around. Mostly he was interested in strenghtening his own power and military, the land reform managed both as it cracked on the ultra-wealthy and ensured a sufficient pool of citizen-soldiers.
 
Last edited:

Arbus

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Who of the populares specifically advocated for seizing the means of production from the wealthy landowners (a group to which the populares all belonged) and instituting communal ownership of it? You can't be a communist without this.

It's very dubious they were politically left even in the mildest sense, since none of them seem to have believed in abolition of slavery (and such ideas were vanishingly rare in general in antiquity). Or a class based society in general for that matter.

For example even Cleomenes III of Sparta who gave an equal lot of land to all citizens (which is more than any Roman populist ever got through) still kept the non-citizens around and he also kept the slaves around. Mostly he was interested in strenghtening his own power and military, the land reform managed both as it cracked on the ultra-wealthy and ensured a sufficient pool of citizen-soldiers.

Left and right are relative terms.

When the status quo is "slavery is ok and oligarchs own everything" sugesting that "maybe the citizens who served the republic should get a plot of land" is considered a radical proposition that only an irresponsible populist would advocate.
 

Antediluvian Monster

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Left and right are relative terms.

When the status quo is "slavery is ok and oligarchs own everything" sugesting that "maybe the citizens who served the republic should get a plot of land" is considered a radical proposition that only an irresponsible populist would advocate.

Radical does not mean left, the right also has radical (often reactionary) elements. For these people having a large pool of citizen landowners tied to military service was the previous state of affairs that had become eroded with time, a reform intending to restore this state of affairs is therefore reactionary.
 
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Federalist girl

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A veritable ocean of ink has been spilled on the legality of it all over the course of two millennia, so I guess we won't answer that conundrum here.

But you raise an important point by bringing the question of morality into it. Was X faction good and was Y faction bad? Paradox games generally set this stuff aside and allow the player the option to experiment with alternative gameplay. I feel that constraining the Populists is a step back in this regard. In historical terms it denies them an ideological coherence and agency but most important of all, in gameplay terms this simply translates into making them boring. There are a lot of interesting options which could be added to make for some great challenges throughout the course of a Republican game but are now essentially void with devs declaring that the advantages of Populists amount to "none really".

Sorry, by asking if populists were bad I didn’t mean morally. I mean for the health of the Republic or people or whatnot.

Populists gaining power supposedly have no advantages for you. But I wasn’t sure that makes sense — populists are historically disruptive, yes, but because they failed to take power through traditionally approved methods (hence the criticism for flattering the common people).

But in IR, if populists control the Senate.... haven’t they taken power in the traditional way? Haven’t they proven the need for their ideas? If so, then having the populist “bonus” actually be a negative suggests that populists could never be good for the state.

I’m not sure about that part. Unless the idea is, because populists represent discontent and failure of the traditional governing class, that populist penalties are knock-on effects of whatever failures brought them into power to begin with.

It’s a frame of reference that would be very pleasing to the classical senatorial historian I guess :p
 

agus92

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Few things
1) when I say populists are commies I dont mean it literally ( obviously communism wasnt even invented )
2) they would be propably considered leftwing tho

Projecting a "left-wing" mindset previous to 19th century is a bit silly and unappropiate, let alone in Antiquity.
 

Captain Frakas

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Projecting a "left-wing" mindset previous to 19th century is a bit silly and unappropiate, let alone in Antiquity.

... previous to 1789, in the very late 18th century...
 

Efimer

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Hello,
The kind of benefits or drawbacks that you get for every senate faction when it rules don't feel right, they are more typical of the type of government. I think that the main role of the senate factions should be to make easier or difficult the approval of laws and to make cheaper or expensive (mana/gold) the government actions.
Civic faction should be favourable to public works.
Military faction should be favourable to increase armies and navies.
Mercantile faction should be favourable to increase production and trade.
Religious faction should be favourable to increase religious activities.
Populist faction should be favourable to divert resources to satisfy populace claims.
I see that you are still using the word tyranny for the rate of legitimacy/despotism of the government. As this word also refers to a classical greek government type I'd replace it with a synonym or equivalent word.
 

ctodd

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I don’t know if this has been mentioned or not, but a better solution to generic Republican government would be unique governments like in EUIV.

Rome could have its own government type unique to them that adequately represents the intricacies of the Senate and their other institutions.

EDIT: But I’m sure we’ll get that later in a DLC we’ll pay for.
 

Prussian Havoc

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This game caught my attention when it was first announced, but I haven't kept up with the Dec Diaries. I can see that was a mistake. I really like the look of this game. Can't wait for Launch. :bow:
 

Efimer

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Just a question, can women govern provinces in any cultures?

if I remember well, in the old game (EU:Rome) there were some minor nations that allowed women to hold some government positions (Britain celts and Sarmatians), in the rest of nations you had to pass specific laws (difficult requirements) to allow it. As they are using the old game as a main source for Imperator I would expect something very similar.