Imperator - Development Diary #13 - 20th of August 2018

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Nyrael

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IMO: A Stellaris type faction system that applies to every nation would be more ideal, and is more realistic. The system Paradox is planning to use now is not original at all, it’s directly copied from EU Rome.

And really, did EVERY ancient Republic have exactly 5 factions??

Copying most features, and improving a few, is what sequels do.

Agreed. I feel that by hewing to the primary historical texts of the Roman Republic most game developers over-emphasize the negative impacts of the Populares and take it to a very simplistic degree. The bare minimum threshold of the Populist faction should at least improve public order.

Populists are what they are because PDS wants certain actions and gameplay styles to destabilize the Senate. Thus, they need a faction which has only bad effects thus they decided to call them Populists. It's not vice versa where they need Populists to be there (hint: they don't), and they decided that they can only have negative effects.
 

Antediluvian Monster

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In paradox games, army modifiers tend to affect all units in your army which would include foreign soldiers. Tradition is also something you do not start with but have to develop for a point cost. Anyway they want Carthage to have a different army than Greece but how different we have no idea.

It didn't have all that different army from the eastern successors, meaning a core fighting in Greek manner bolstered by whatever local fare, plus elephants if available. The most notable distinction is that the successors tended more towards the Macedonian phalanx, but that's a distinction all Greek states should be able to make (i.e. not all Greeks use the Macedonian phalanx at start even if familiar with it).
 

riadach

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I don't like that the present day political climate is affecting your game development which it obviously is with the populist faction mechanics and other diversity comments in the past. It would be better if you stay totally out of that but then your a Swedish company and you probably got no choice because of too many authoritarian tyranny points in your government so I forgive you.

Great job otherwise I like the interplay between senate and laws and especially Diplo the latter has great potential to make Diplo even more interesting what many games try but fail at.

edit: not replying to quotes of my post as I don't want to create a back and forth political discussion which would be very off topic
edit2: if its consistent with EU:Rome then its fine and I get the point that its historical just you got to be vigilant there had been comments in the past
Your opinion is ironically unpopular.
 

Denkt

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It didn't have all that different army from the eastern successors, meaning a core fighting in Greek manner bolstered by local fare, plus elephants if available. The most notable distinction is that the successors tended more towards the Macedonian phalanx, but that's a distinction all Greek states should be able to make.
Without actually knowing what choices you have when it comes to tradition it is very hard to say what will be the differences between the Greek and North African traditions. Spears is probably the most common melee weapon so many militaries probably developed in a rather similar fashion even if there is differences as well.

In EU: Rome you had to choose between Roman and Greek warfare so in that game you choice was rather limited.
 

Antediluvian Monster

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Without actually knowing what choices you have when it comes to tradition it is very hard to say what will be the differences between the Greek and North African traditions. Spears is probably the most common melee weapon so many militaries probably developed in a rather similar fashion even if there is differences as well.

It's hard to guess what the development team would put them at, but other than that it's quite easy: the choices should be the same. And as stated previously Carthage should follow a distinct outremer traditions different from native north africans, so the natives should probably follow berber traditions or something.

No seriously, scrap "north african" traditions for Carthage. Full stop. I would accept the previously suggested Punic traditions, just as long as it's virtually indistinguishable from Greeks.
 
Last edited:

Chaos128

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You never cease to amaze me, It just keeps getting better and better, I can't wait to see what our modding community is going to do with all of this. The political system and senate was absolutely my favorite feature from EU:Rome, good to see it getting all of this extra attention. Thanks Devs!
 

Denkt

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Should Egypt have "Egyptian traditions" because it used natives as phalangites?
The only thing I know about tradition is that it is used to unlock abilities and units such as road construction, chariots and phalanx ability.

I don't know what the difference between Roman, North African, Celtic and Greek traditions will be.

Having Greek tradition cover most of the Imperator Rome: world may not be something the developers want even if it may be correct.

For Libyan infantry employed by Carthage, so it seems. The Numidian cavalry did not fight in any hellenic manner though.

Maybe that is the difference between Greek and North African traditions. Same infantry with differences in cavalry.
 
Last edited:

Johan

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I_am_Nemo

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As Rome is "essentially a map painter" I assume everyone will push the militarists into power and they will stay there till the end of the game.

I mean, given that the "map painting" meta in EU IV is to take as few mil groups as possible, I don't see how that follows. Military faction looks like it will be good for winning hard wars, but for maintaining a sprawling empire, suppressing unrest, manipulating the diplomatic situation to your advantage, and keeping the war machine rolling, it appears to offer few-to-no real advantages.

Religious faction improves conversion, mercantile offers dip rep. Civic "only" offers economic benefits, which may or may not be as irrelevant as late-game EUIV. From the screenshot, it looks like other factions can definitely be majority in favor of war, so "need somebody to support my war decs" isn't an open and shut case either.
 

gorillacakes

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No they should not. If you get populists it mean the people are already discontent and wants reforms. It is like saying that rebels should reduce unrest.

But that's not entirely true though. Starting with Tiberius Gracchus and moving forwards, all of the major tribunes murdered such as Gaius Gracchus, Saturninus, Drusus and Sulpicius after simply proposing legislation in a strictly legal way. Discontent almost always stemmed from the Optimates who weren't getting things their way and then reacted violently. Unrest follows only after the dirty deed is done.

Going even further back in time, the mere creation of the position of Tribune reduced social tension.

I just think that the Populares faction should be handled in a much more nuanced way that doesn't make faction management "gamey". You can easily tweak them to have significant downside relative to other factions but provide an upside that offers interesting gameplay. I don't think the EU Rome handled that aspect very well.
 

Antediluvian Monster

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Maybe that is the difference between Greek and North African traditions. Same infantry with differences in cavalry.

There were differences in cavalry all over the hellenistic sphere. The eastern parts had rich cavalry traditions and native cavalry was already recruited in Alexander's time. So while the troops employed aren't Greek, employment of distinct native subject cavalry itself is very much in spirit of hellenistic military tradition.

All Greek style militaries should synthesize their with local traditions, so Macedon synthesizes with Thracian traditions, Seleucids and Pontus with Persian etc., Carthage with North African. But there should not be anything fundamentally distinct about Carthage other than aspects enforced by it's location.
 
Last edited:

Pomeranian

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In EU: Rome there is no direct advantage but the problem is how to avoid the populists which is not easy to do.

Bizarrely, this is one of the things which I liked about republics in EU: Rome. When you had a 10 martial character who was part of a populist faction, you had the painful choice of either giving him command of an army knowing that he would be able to win many battles but would increase the popularity of the populists or refusing to giving him command which could cause you to lose battles or even a war.

One separate question I have for @Johan is: will the child-rearing system be like the one in EU:Rome (i.e. non-existent) or the one in CK2? I actually hope it'll be the former as it was much more interesting because you could occasionally have a golden generation of characters or a generation of bang average ones. In CK2, you can almost always ensure that you have generation after generation of great generals and administrators which feels a bit gamey.
 
Last edited:

EastonAugustus

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I really hope that there is more to all of the senate parties, and there just not bland annoying things like the estates in eu4. I also really hope that character interaction plays a big part in the senate , to model things like assassinations, street fighting between parties, character rivalry and others things. Also party leaders should be very influential and be able to keep their members voting for a motion. On the screen shot it shows when declaring war on Carthage that every party is like 13/20 or like 17/21. I believe that the parties back then were more into block voting for or against a motion. Also it would be fun if the part leader of the Militarist party and the populist party would be able to create "alliances" if they liked each other, and that would go for other characters also. I think politics should focus more on interacting with the enemy leaders then dumping mana points.